Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 238 - AVS Forum
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post #7111 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 08:51 AM
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BTW, just in case there may be some interest here, a new bass demo disc is available:

post #579


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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #7112 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

BTW, just in case there may be some interest here, a new bass demo disc is available:
post #579

anyone wanna make me a blu-ray of it? I will pay for your troubles of course!

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post #7113 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

On the left speaker moving it back and forth changes the dip from 3k to 8k.
When you say back and forth, do you mean moving the speaker front to back (away and towards the front wall) or do you mean moving the speaker left to right? With SBIR, when you move the speaker away from the wall, the cancellation frequency goes down, not up (3k to 8k). Is the speaker near any other wall (e.g., side wall)?
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

On the right side all the dips are gone if the speaker is placed 15.5 cm or so from the back wall.
Just to keep our terminology consistent, when you say "back wall" do you mean the wall at the front of the room or back of the room?
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

Dip came back after I toed in the right a little.
That sounds like it could be the front wall or the side wall, since toe in affects both. BTW, these measurements you're talking about are one speaker at a time, right? Not both speakers together?
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I think the true recourse here is 2" acoustic panels behind the speakers?
IF the front wall does turn out to be the source of the cancellation, then 2" panels should absorb enough at 3kHz to take care of it. If you're willing to put absorption on the front wall, I would encourage you to go thicker (4-6 inches) AND cover a large area (at least the spread of your L/R speakers).

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post #7114 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

When you say back and forth, do you mean moving the speaker front to back (away and towards the front wall) or do you mean moving the speaker left to right? With SBIR, when you move the speaker away from the wall, the cancellation frequency goes down, not up (3k to 8k).

Correct, towards the front wall and away from the front wall.
Quote:
Is the speaker near any other wall (e.g., side wall)?
On the left hand side, there is no side wall. There's a half wall about 5 ft away with its end pointing more or less right at the speaker.
On the right hand side, there's a bit of wall lower down at a very shallow angle. That side has the stairwell so then there are spindles there as well and the steps.
Quote:
Just to keep our terminology consistent, when you say "back wall" do you mean the wall at the front of the room or back of the room?

Sorry about the switch. By "back wall" I meant the front wall behind the speaker. I should never have said it that way.
Quote:
That sounds like it could be the front wall or the side wall, since toe in affects both. BTW, these measurements you're talking about are one speaker at a time, right? Not both speakers together?

Correct, one speaker at a time. Makes me wish I were Mr. Fantastic to better reach the speaker jacks on the amp smile.gif
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IF the front wall does turn out to be the source of the cancellation, then 2" panels should absorb enough at 3kHz to take care of it. If you're willing to put absorption on the front wall, I would encourage you to go thicker (4-6 inches) AND cover a large area (at least the spread of your L/R speakers).

4-6"? Really? That might not be practical. I was planning on doing the whole front wall in black panels/curtain for light and sound absorbtion. That section of wall is maybe 8-9' wide and just under 8' tall. But the TV and cabinetry are there so I wouldn't even need that much.
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post #7115 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Or maybe just to stop measuring:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1478854/the-science-of-the-room-with-paul-hales
wink.gif

Stop measuring? eek.gif

You, sir, are in the wrong forum! wink.gif
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post #7116 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post



Correct, one speaker at a time. Makes me wish I were Mr. Fantastic to better reach the speaker jacks on the amp smile.gif
 

 

Just curious, does your AVR/amp not have RCA AUX inputs on the front panel?  Having to access connections in the back would add a layer of complexity to REW measurements for sure.

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post #7117 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You absolutely need a mic stand. You don't need the cm01.

Ok is there a special kind of clip I need for the mic stand to hold the UMIK 1?

I was thinking of this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00347A44I/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Will this be ok?

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post #7118 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonT35 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You absolutely need a mic stand. You don't need the cm01.

Ok is there a special kind of clip I need for the mic stand to hold the UMIK 1?

I was thinking of this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00347A44I/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Will this be ok?

 

You don't need this for the UMIK-1.  See here or picture below:

 

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post #7119 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Or maybe just to stop measuring:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1478854/the-science-of-the-room-with-paul-hales
wink.gif
Wasn't it Toole that said 'our rooms didn't sound bad until we started measuring them' (or something to that effect).

Sanjay
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post #7120 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

On the left hand side, there is no side wall. There's a half wall about 5 ft away with its end pointing more or less right at the speaker.

On the right hand side, there's a bit of wall lower down at a very shallow angle. That side has the stairwell so then there are spindles there as well and the steps.
I'm having trouble visualizing the front of the room based on your descriptions, but at least it explains the inconsistency (why you're only getting the cancellation on one side). The first thing I would do is try to make the front of the room as acoustically symmetrical as possible. I'm going to guess that it will require more treatment than you were expecting to put up.
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

4-6"? Really? That might not be practical. I was planning on doing the whole front wall in black panels/curtain for light and sound absorbtion. That section of wall is maybe 8-9' wide and just under 8' tall. But the TV and cabinetry are there so I wouldn't even need that much.
4-6" so that the absorption is somewhat broadband. If you don't want to go thicker than 2 inches, then consider using denser material (OC705 instead of the typical OC703).

Sanjay
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post #7121 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

You don't need this for the UMIK-1.  See here or picture below:



Ok so the clip that comes with the umik will fit on the mic boom stand that is recommended in the Audyssey thread?

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post #7122 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


Wasn't it Toole that said 'our rooms didn't sound bad until we started measuring them' (or something to that effect).

Yeah, but what does he know.

:D


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post #7123 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
 

And therein lies the rub.

Using the generator function, I am, indeed, getting output only from the center channel.

However, running the sweeps, the left and right are also participating.

Oh, well.

Michael

 

I stand corrected.  With the AVR in PLII Cinema mode, and when feeding a mono REW sweep to both left and right channels, there is still an audible signal coming from the left and right speakers.  However, in my tests, the left and right signals were down -30dB from the signal coming from the center channel.  So, I claim that with the left and right signal this low, you are still getting a meaningful measurement of the center channel.  Would you agree with this?

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post #7124 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Wasn't it Toole that said 'our rooms didn't sound bad until we started measuring them' (or something to that effect).

IMO there's some truth to that. If you take the risk of measuring, you take the risk of enjoying your system less because the measurement of, say, impulse response or bass decay may challenge your definiton of 'good'. When you see ringing at 600 ms at 50 Hz, it's easy to question whether you got your money's worth. smile.gif

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post #7125 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 05:19 PM
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And therein lies the rub.
Using the generator function, I am, indeed, getting output only from the center channel.
However, running the sweeps, the left and right are also participating.
What is the difference between the generator and the sweeps? In REW I thought they were the same.

How does "participation" manifest itself?
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post #7126 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 05:24 PM
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What is the difference between the generator and the sweeps? In REW I thought they were the same.

How does "participation" manifest itself?

I'll use an SPL meter tomorrow (too late tonight - watching Monsters U, instead).

But you can have this in the meantime:

 


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post #7127 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 06:26 PM
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What exactly are we looking at? Are we supposed to guess?
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post #7128 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Just curious, does your AVR/amp not have RCA AUX inputs on the front panel?  Having to access connections in the back would add a layer of complexity to REW measurements for sure.

No, no jacks of any kind on the front other than a headphone jack. I was hoping I could do multichannel from my Mac laptop to control the channels but seems that it's too old to do other than 2-channel.

I'm going to try turning speakers off in the prepro to see if that works.
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post #7129 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

What exactly are we looking at? Are we supposed to guess?

Just doing what I was asked. Top line is left and right speakers, bottom line is PLII Movie, which is supposed to be center channel only but isn't. My whole point is that it seems to mess up the FR; I thought we were trying to figure out why. At least confirmation that another system also produces sound left/right (when my understanding until now was that there shouldn't be any) in PLII mode makes me feel better.

Since everything looks good (not shown here) in Extended Surround (which, I think, sends the same mono signal to all speakers), I'm not worried about it.


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post #7130 of 10744 Old 11-19-2013, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

So why don't you post your extended surround (not sure what that means) measurements?

Sure, sleep is overrated, anyway. ;)

From the manual: "Ext. Stereo - Gives multichannel sound to a stereo source, using all of your speakers."


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post #7131 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Wasn't it Toole that said 'our rooms didn't sound bad until we started measuring them' (or something to that effect).

There's a some truth in that but if we know our goals then measuring is a prerequisite to reaching them. The problem is to define a meaningful goal. On the one hand there are no meaningful standards and on the other there's a lack of psychoacoustic research when it comes to perception of multichannel recordings in acoustically small rooms.

Markus

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post #7132 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Just doing what I was asked. Top line is left and right speakers, bottom line is PLII Movie, which is supposed to be center channel only but isn't. My whole point is that it seems to mess up the FR; I thought we were trying to figure out why. At least confirmation that another system also produces sound left/right (when my understanding until now was that there shouldn't be any) in PLII mode makes me feel better.
Since everything looks good (not shown here) in Extended Surround (which, I think, sends the same mono signal to all speakers), I'm not worried about it.

Did you adjust the center width setting?

Markus

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post #7133 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I'm having trouble visualizing the front of the room based on your descriptions, but at least it explains the inconsistency (why you're only getting the cancellation on one side). The first thing I would do is try to make the front of the room as acoustically symmetrical as possible. I'm going to guess that it will require more treatment than you were expecting to put up.
4-6" so that the absorption is somewhat broadband. If you don't want to go thicker than 2 inches, then consider using denser material (OC705 instead of the typical OC703).


Here's a photo of the front from another forum. You can see the staircase on the right hand side that angles out.


And a model of the room. Since this was done I've moved the one sub to the other end of the sofa, behind the MLP.



The MLP is the end of the sofa next to the easy chair.

The polygon in the middle is a stairwell with a closet beneath it. I use that closet to keep some of the electronics.

There are 3 subs. One is at the end of the sofa, and the other two are at either end of the entertainment center. I want those two close to the mains for when the sub amp gets replaced/repaired.
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post #7134 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

I'll use an SPL meter tomorrow (too late tonight - watching Monsters U, instead).
But you can have this in the meantime:



Looks like a reversed polarity issue.

Markus

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post #7135 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post


Did you adjust the center width setting?

 

Nope.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post


Looks like a reversed polarity issue.

 

Tried that. Red line with deep dip at 85.

Even tried turning the center on its side (vertical); green line with dip at 110.

Purple is stereo, gold is ext. stereo.

My solution? DON'T USE PLII.

:D

 

 


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post #7136 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 05:36 AM
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My solution? DON'T USE PLII.

:D

 

Well, you might as well unhook your center speaker then. :D  Does it sound as bad as it looks?

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post #7137 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 05:41 AM
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No, it sounds great (see "ext. stereo," above; Neo 6: Music looks good, too [but not Neo 6: Movie]).

Which led me to think it might be a processing problem, but I've gotten no response on the SC-1222 thread.


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post #7138 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Nope.

That's probably the reason why you see some content in L and R and not just C.

Did you measure preamp outputs to see which signal gets routed where?

Connect your center to the left output and disconnect all other speakers - what does the response for the center speaker look like? The problem might be your center and not PLII.

Markus

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post #7139 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Nope.

That's probably the reason why you see some content in L and R and not just C.

Did you measure preamp outputs to see which signal gets routed where?

Connect your center to the left output and disconnect all other speakers - what does the response for the center speaker look like? The problem might be your center and not PLII.

 

That's a good suggestion.  Take PLII out of the equation altogether and measure the center channel hooked up to the left output in regular stereo mode as Markus suggests.

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post #7140 of 10744 Old 11-20-2013, 05:57 AM
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No, it sounds great (see "ext. stereo," above; Neo 6: Music looks good, too [but not Neo 6: Movie]).

Which led me to think it might be a processing problem, but I've gotten no response on the SC-1222 thread.

 

I meant how bad does PLII sound but nevermind that...just get a raw measurement of the center channel as suggested.

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