Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 244 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:41 AM
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I have to admit, Stuart, after reading the first post of the second link, I am tempted to try the MiniDSP 2x4. At a price of only ~$100, I don't see a big risk, plus it sounds like it might be a lot of fun to play with. Add to that the integration with REW, and this sounds like a compelling addition to the system, especially my 4-sub configuration.

Keith, is this the one you purchased? Have you played with it yet?
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have to admit, Stuart, after reading the first post of the second link, I am tempted to try the MiniDSP 2x4. At a price of only ~$100, I don't see a big risk, plus it sounds like it might be a lot of fun to play with. Add to that the integration with REW, and this sounds like a compelling addition to the system, especially my 4-sub configuration.

Keith, is this the one you purchased? Have you played with it yet?

It's definitely something you can use to further refine your room smile.gif....house curves, maybe looking at high pass/low pass filters with different octave rolloffs for getting a smooth, single bass response, and more control over distance and level. $100 would be a cheap investment as experimental use goes.

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Old 12-08-2013, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have to admit, Stuart, after reading the first post of the second link, I am tempted to try the MiniDSP 2x4. At a price of only ~$100, I don't see a big risk, plus it sounds like it might be a lot of fun to play with. Add to that the integration with REW, and this sounds like a compelling addition to the system, especially my 4-sub configuration.

Keith, is this the one you purchased? Have you played with it yet?

 

I bought the Behringer FBD for $50 secondhand... similar concept. I have played with it, but I don't seem to need it since I added the last round of treatments (24 panels of one kind or another in the room now - Ethan WIner would be proud of me! And many of them are 8 inches thickness since I stuffed the extra gibbins behind them).  I originally bought the FBD to create a house curve with a tilt upwards from the XO, but I am getting this now 'naturally' thanks to the room, the sub placements, DEQ, SubM Pgm 2, all working harmoniously and symbiotically.

 

The thing I would like to try is the AntiMode Dual Core 2.0 - an Audyssey replacer if ever there was one IMO. Very flexible - but it is about $1,000 here so it's too much to buy it just to play with.

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Old 12-08-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I have the front speakers by themselves, but just for my regular positioning.

I use this measurement to determine best crossover point (although this is also dictated by center/surround), and the reflections.

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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I'm not sure if I want a different HF response than the way it already is, since the current position was chosen gradually some years ago, but REW does show the HF FR at the MLP to be somewhat anemic at a quick glance, but I like the way it sounds. Have to think about it.

Most people prefer some HF roll off (I know I do). Of course, when you change the room (with treatment), this will effect the HF energy hitting your ears and you may find you prefer a different direct HF FR. If you're super keen on using REW, I would suggest making sure you label your measurements well so that you don't forget what did what. I find it important to also listen to the changes so you can gain some correlation about how the different measurements translate.

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You see, the second sub was bought at the cusp of the DVD age, not much LFE out there, and it was chosen for music so doesn't even go to 20Hz (I thought...I think the real issue is I can't hear much at 20Hz lol). I thought using it with SubEQ HT would cripple the lowest freq capability of the big SVS one, least that's what I was told. I don't see much harm, only a fraction of a dB harm below 25Hz*, but the improvement overall greatly outweighs that with much cleaner and smoother sound. So clean I asked the usual question "where's the bass gone?", but thanks to REW I see there's actually way more bass.

We all have to work with what we got smile.gif
I can't see how 2 subs would ever be worse then 1. With 2 subs, you can use positioning to create a much flatter FR and reduce ringing.
When you say "way more bass", do you mean extension (lower frequencies), or SPL output? Have you looked at house curves?
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Don't want you guys to do all my graphwork or else I won't learn anything. But thanks for the offer, if you were offering... smile.gif

Not to do all your work tongue.gif just to help you correlate why things sound different and areas of interest.


I have used the REW measurements to nail down my BM XO, and that's about it really so far. I took tons of measurements of my FR+FL in all sorts of configs (I have variable external XO on them too) and in fact I'm doing more right now (raw I mean, without any digital EQ). In my room XO=60Hz is the good choice for BM XO. But it's never the best choice. With 1 sub, 40Hz was clearly superior, and it is what I used for years with MultEQ XT and 1 sub. It's always gratifying to see measurements bear out your ear, it doesn't happen all the time... i.e. my 1 vs 2 subs debacle. But with 2 subs, 80Hz is the winner, yup the old standard measures as the best, and in this case 40Hz is clearly by far the worst.

Sure 2 subs are better. And the "second" sub is by no means a cheapie, it's just as "good" (maybe better, for what it is) as the SVS PC13-Ultra, but it was bought for mainly music, with HT as a secondary occasional use. I don't think I even watched video at home in the days I got it. The room FR with optimum BM XO and 2 subs is quite smooth and strong throughout the range. Way better than with 1 sub, even when that 1 sub is the most powerful one. I haven't posted any graphs because I'm too lazy to re-read the requirements for posting graphs, the way you have to format them etc. I'll probably do that as soon as I have a proper question. So far REW has only given me answers.

The reason why I was questioning using one "weaker" sub with a "strong" sub is I was told in the Audyssey thread that the weak sub would "cripple" my overall bass response with SubEQ HT. So about a month ago I went back to just the one big sub. But in my room/setup that is not happening. The overall performance is far superior with the second weak sub in the mix. Things are so much cleaner that it sounded like there was less bass, when in fact there was actually a lot more. (There is a pointed warning re this in the Audyssey FAQ.) So, sometimes people say things that may be generally true, but they may not be true in specific circumstances. Now that I know what I know, there's no way I'd go back to 1 strong sub vs the 2 subs.
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

The reason why I was questioning using one "weaker" sub with a "strong" sub is I was told in the Audyssey thread that the weak sub would "cripple" my overall bass response with SubEQ HT. ...The overall performance is far superior with the second weak sub in the mix. .... Now that I know what I know, there's no way I'd go back to 1 strong sub vs the 2 subs.

Do you know if that's just an Audyssey thing? I know with my subs, I used the two front subs for most of the bass response and I used the 3rd to pull up a null via placement and its volume control. I twiddled the volume on the 3rd powered amp until it smoothed the response as measured by REW.

I am really happy with my FR now and my wife likes that the 3rd sub's best placement (so far) is a little hidden away.
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:45 PM
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Anyone have their UMIK-1 mic all of a sudden read 5 db lower? Mine has always matched the rat shack meter db for db, all around my room.

Out of the blue it's reading 70 db where the rat shack is reading 75. I've reset REW (I'm using the REW spl meter) and it detects the umik and asks for the cal file like it always has. I've tried all the cal files and they all read 5 db lower than the rat shack.

I also tried a different USB cable and different input level in Windows. I'm at a loss as to what might have happened.
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Anyone have their UMIK-1 mic all of a sudden read 5 db lower? Mine has always matched the rat shack meter db for db, all around my room.

Out of the blue it's reading 70 db where the rat shack is reading 75. I've reset REW (I'm using the REW spl meter) and it detects the umik and asks for the cal file like it always has. I've tried all the cal files and they all read 5 db lower than the rat shack.

I also tried a different USB cable and different input level in Windows. I'm at a loss as to what might have happened.

Check the battery in the RS meter?

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Old 12-08-2013, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Check the battery in the RS meter?

Will do that now, however, it seems unlikely that would be the problem since I'm running a test tone off my receiver at 0db after a fresh room correction run. In this case the rat shack and umik have always matched at 75 db. ....... my AVR does a great job at setting the levels correctly.

Off to change the battery. !

EDIT- new battery - same situation. Odd!
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Will do that now, however, it seems unlikely that would be the problem since I'm running a test tone off my receiver at 0db after a fresh room correction run. In this case the rat shack and umik have always matched at 75 db. ....... my AVR does a great job at setting the levels correctly.

Off to change the battery. !

EDIT- new battery - same situation. Odd!

Have you tried test tones at different frequencies? Is the deviation the same for all of them?

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Old 12-08-2013, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Anyone have their UMIK-1 mic all of a sudden read 5 db lower? Mine has always matched the rat shack meter db for db, all around my room.

Out of the blue it's reading 70 db where the rat shack is reading 75. I've reset REW (I'm using the REW spl meter) and it detects the umik and asks for the cal file like it always has. I've tried all the cal files and they all read 5 db lower than the rat shack.

I also tried a different USB cable and different input level in Windows. I'm at a loss as to what might have happened.

Regardless of the fact that REW reads the UMIK-1 sensivity from the calibration file, I have always manually calibrated the mic. So, if you take the time to manually calibrate it, it will the same level as the SPL meter.

HST, I have never noticed the mic and the SPL levels being different.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Have you tried test tones at different frequencies? Is the deviation the same for all of them?


Oddly enough they match up at 50hz but not at 80. They match during a pink noise tone for subs, but not full range.


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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Regardless of the fact that REW reads the UMIK-1 sensivity from the calibration file, I have always manually calibrated the mic. So, if you take the time to manually calibrate it, it will the same level as the SPL meter.

HST, I have never noticed the mic and the SPL levels being different.

That might be a good idea Jerry.


There has never been a difference between my mic and spl meter until last night. Something had to have happened.

FWIW my rat shack is reading dead on at 75 db when checking the channel levels after a fresh level calibration using the AVR. It's kind of disturbing to have the rat shack match the receiver yet the calibrated umik-1 does not.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have to admit, Stuart, after reading the first post of the second link, I am tempted to try the MiniDSP 2x4. At a price of only ~$100, I don't see a big risk, plus it sounds like it might be a lot of fun to play with. Add to that the integration with REW, and this sounds like a compelling addition to the system, especially my 4-sub configuration.

Keith, is this the one you purchased? Have you played with it yet?

 

I have been thinking about this, and given my current bass response curve (shown below at 1/12 smoothing), in what way would I expect the MiniDSP to improve things?  Provide a house curve?

 

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Old 12-08-2013, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been thinking about this, and given my current bass response curve (shown below at 1/12 smoothing), in what way would I expect the MiniDSP to improve things?  Provide a house curve?



Sounds like a waste of money in your case. You have one of the flattest, deepest bass responses ive ever seen. What could be better about it? smile.gif

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Old 12-08-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been thinking about this, and given my current bass response curve (shown below at 1/12 smoothing), in what way would I expect the MiniDSP to improve things?  Provide a house curve?

Where do your two virtual subs on the Sub HT RQ EQ outputs cross? Maybe fine tuning that area would help on the FR and bass decay charts you've run. If i read correctly, you could set the gain, delay and EQ for each of your four subs separately with some manipulation of sub outputs on the MiniDSP, and also change the EQ and gain at the upper level (the two LFE inputs on the Mini feeding into your two Denon 4520 sub pre-outs) for the house curve. I'm guessing, but it might be worth $100 to see if it helps.

Your room is heavily treated, so prospective house curves would be the main reason to try it out. But as Jim says, your flat bass response inspires us all... smile.gif

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Old 12-08-2013, 06:03 PM
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On one hand, I enjoy playing with toys, and appreciate the suggestions. On the other hand, I have recently gained new respect for the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I suspect my time would be better spent chasing down several remaining reflections revealed in the ETC graphs, as I am sure Jim would agree. Or then I could sit back and enjoy listening to some music and a glass of wine. So many decisions!
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

On one hand, I enjoy playing with toys, and appreciate the suggestions. On the other hand, I have recently gained new respect for the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I suspect my time would be better spent chasing down several remaining reflections revealed in the ETC graphs, as I am sure Jim would agree. Or then I could sit back and enjoy listening to some music and a glass of wine. So many decisions!

Well if you phrase it like that....I'd pick the wine.

I guess it depends on your goals LOL....in my case, I've got miles to go because my mind's always working, and i love electronic toys....

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Old 12-08-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

On one hand, I enjoy playing with toys, and appreciate the suggestions. On the other hand, I have recently gained new respect for the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I suspect my time would be better spent chasing down several remaining reflections revealed in the ETC graphs, as I am sure Jim would agree. Or then I could sit back and enjoy listening to some music and a glass of wine. So many decisions!

If you want something a bit more challenging, I got some Crown Royal with your name on it smile.gif

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Old 12-08-2013, 08:50 PM
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The reason why I was questioning using one "weaker" sub with a "strong" sub is I was told in the Audyssey thread that the weak sub would "cripple" my overall bass response with SubEQ HT. ...The overall performance is far superior with the second weak sub in the mix. .... Now that I know what I know, there's no way I'd go back to 1 strong sub vs the 2 subs.

Do you know if that's just an Audyssey thing? I know with my subs, I used the two front subs for most of the bass response and I used the 3rd to pull up a null via placement and its volume control. I twiddled the volume on the 3rd powered amp until it smoothed the response as measured by REW.

I am really happy with my FR now and my wife likes that the 3rd sub's best placement (so far) is a little hidden away.

I think it's just an Audyssey SubEQ thing. It measures the subs separately, but creates the curve combined. <- That's what people tell me. And that's what we want. I was concerned because I was told that say you have one sub good to 30Hz and one good to 20Hz, the resultant combined curve would be hampered by the least-capable sub and you'd end up with a flatter good-to-30Hz sub curve in the measured area.

That's not how it worked out. The last REW readings I took today were ones with the subs separately and combined, with Audyssey On. It's clear from the separate curves and the overall curve that SubEQ is using the strong and the weak points of the separate subs. Kinda cool. The resultant overal subwoofer response is not what you (OK, I) would necessarily expect, but you can sorta see it's doing some clever things, taking recognizable bits and pieces of the different sub response areas and coming up with a really fine result considering what I have to work with. I need to look at the curves more to understand better, but it's good enough that I'm not moving anything! = time to look at treatment possibilities for the areas that need it more.
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:02 AM
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I have to admit, Stuart, after reading the first post of the second link, I am tempted to try the MiniDSP 2x4. At a price of only ~$100, I don't see a big risk, plus it sounds like it might be a lot of fun to play with. Add to that the integration with REW, and this sounds like a compelling addition to the system, especially my 4-sub configuration.

Keith, is this the one you purchased? Have you played with it yet?

 

I have been thinking about this, and given my current bass response curve (shown below at 1/12 smoothing), in what way would I expect the MiniDSP to improve things?  Provide a house curve?

 

 

Yes - you can't improve what you have. All you can do is change it. So if you wanted a house curve with a rising bass from the XO to say, 20Hz and then gradually falling off below 20Hz, you could do it. If you don't want something like that, then I can’t see why you would need any other EQ TBH. Your 'curve' is as flat as a curve could be!

 

Here, for comparison, is mine with no additional tweaking (eg SubM Pgm 2 or DEQ etc):

 

 

When I engage Pgm2 on the SubMs, it pulls it up by about 3dB from 40Hz down which would make it very similar to yours to 15Hz. I can't find a current graph with Pgm2 engaged though - I seem to have not bothered with graphing it last time I measured. I will be measuring again in the next couple of weeks or so as I am installing the final tri-traps in the wall-ceiling-wall corners.

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Old 12-09-2013, 04:54 AM
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woa woa woa, whats all this graphing with 1/12 smoothing balogna

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:57 AM
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woa woa woa, whats all this graphing with 1/12 smoothing balogna

We were just testing to see if you were paying attention, Brian. You passed with flying colors.
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:09 AM
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We were just testing to see if you were paying attention, Brian. You passed with flying colors.

woohoo!!!! see I CAN do it wink.gif

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Old 12-09-2013, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been thinking about this, and given my current bass response curve (shown below at 1/12 smoothing), in what way would I expect the MiniDSP to improve things?  Provide a house curve?



You could try to achieve the same response using just the miniDSP. That way you would get a feeling how bass optimization sounds without the equalization Audyssey applies to higher frequencies.

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Old 12-09-2013, 06:24 AM
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I'm looking at the Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone to integrate with REW. I understand that by using this I can better treat my room, but will this enable me to further adjust Audyssey MultEQ XT32 or just see exactly what it's doing - in relation to the changes I make in the room?

Other than a laptop and USB mic, would I need anything else with my AVR (Onkyo TX-NR5008)? I have a tripod - shouldn't need a mic stand/boom right?

Just trying to get an idea of what I'd be getting into and what all I will need to purchase.

I added super chunk corner traps and bass trap panels yesterday. Trying to adjust to the new sound - feels like there's pressure on my ears, like being at high altitude on a airplane.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

woa woa woa, whats all this graphing with 1/12 smoothing balogna

 

 

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
We were just testing to see if you were paying attention, Brian. You passed with flying colors.

 

LOL. Next time, we should do something more subtle...  like this maybe...

 

 

How's that for a sub response huh?  LOL.

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Old 12-09-2013, 07:43 AM
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That last post, although a joke, does show the importance of setting the graph parameters correctly. It is the same graph that I posted above in response to Jerry posting that 1/12th smoothed graph of his SW response. But hey - look how great it looks! 

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Old 12-09-2013, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That last post, although a joke, does show the importance of setting the graph parameters correctly. It is the same graph that I posted above in response to Jerry posting that 1/12th smoothed graph of his SW response. But hey - look how great it looks! 

That flat as a pancake response curve isn't 1/12th smoothed, is it? smile.gif

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 16/24, NAD M27 amp, Crown XLS 1502 stereo amps (2)
Display: Panasonic VT50, Lumagen Radiance Mini
Misc.: Oppo 103, Apple TV, JRiver ID NUC
Speakers: PSB Imagine T2, Center, and X2T Surrounds; Atlantic Tech 44-DA heights (4), HSU ULS-15 subs (2)
More gear to follow as I get going with the Altitude...
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

You could try to achieve the same response using just the miniDSP. That way you would get a feeling how bass optimization sounds without the equalization Audyssey applies to higher frequencies.

And turn Audyssey off? eek.gif
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:37 AM
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^
And eventually throw it out of the window smile.gif

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That last post, although a joke, does show the importance of setting the graph parameters correctly. It is the same graph that I posted above in response to Jerry posting that 1/12th smoothed graph of his SW response. But hey - look how great it looks! 

That flat as a pancake response curve isn't 1/12th smoothed, is it? smile.gif

 

Yes it was. Here it is unsmoothed....

 

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