Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 259 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat > Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
Audionut11's Avatar Audionut11 02:07 PM 01-01-2014
I researched that too. Apparently all the kerfuffle about the stuff is mostly wives tales. tongue.gif

lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 03:18 PM 01-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

I researched that too. Apparently all the kerfuffle about the stuff is mostly wives tales. tongue.gif
yeah its only dangerous if you seal the glass fibers into your lungs by smoking while in the room, otherwise its totally safe:eek:
GeekWave's Avatar GeekWave 03:35 PM 01-01-2014

Hi Guys, Shane here, Just wanted to quickly chime in and say what an awesome and promising thread - just joined the forum and this thread is the reason why. Anyway, I'm only at page 13... just 245 to go ...dont want to miss any useful info.

 

Did some tuning using REW the other day, and as always, I finish with more questions than when I started. So here I am... :-) ...Well, back to reading. Really looking forward to getting into this juicy stuff with you all... 

 

cheers

Shane


AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 03:47 PM 01-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post


Certainly nothing wrong with that measurement, Nut!
Audionut11's Avatar Audionut11 09:38 PM 01-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Certainly nothing wrong with that measurement, Nut!

Cheers, I hate reflections. Jim might think otherwise. tongue.gifsmile.gif
jim19611961's Avatar jim19611961 09:50 PM 01-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Cheers, I hate reflections. Jim might think otherwise. tongue.gifsmile.gif

And I do smile.gif

But I will agree with you concerning early high gain reflections wink.gif
pepar's Avatar pepar 07:45 AM 01-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Cheers, I hate reflections. Jim might think otherwise. tongue.gifsmile.gif

Your LF is nicely controlled, but what is your midband RT60? Is there a point at which you would consider a room too dead?

I am at that point right now in my room - or at least was at that point before I slacked off from working on my theater. I purchased "skyline" diffusors and plan to swap them for my 3" OC SelectSound Black rear first reflection point absorber. The FRP absorber on the front ceiling is also a candidate as are the L&R front panels. It is very east to over-dampen residential sized spaces and I have done just that. I need "air!"

Jeff
jim19611961's Avatar jim19611961 11:58 AM 01-02-2014
Audionut11's and my ETC look remarkably similar except for my kicker.


markus767's Avatar markus767 01:15 PM 01-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Audionut11's and my ETC look remarkably similar except for my kicker.

Yeah, both your ETCs show tons of very early reflections biggrin.gif
Audionut11's Avatar Audionut11 09:39 PM 01-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Your LF is nicely controlled, but what is your midband RT60?



Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Is there a point at which you would consider a room too dead?

I would have said yes previously just based on general concencous. However so far, each time I have increased the dampening of the room I have preferred the outcome. I'm sure there is some form of bias in this judgement, but as I sit here and listen while typing this, I'm literally in love. There is no listening fatigue. I don't hear reflections from the side, or behind or any other direction. I personally prefer the ability to be able to hear nuances in recordings that I never knew existed, it really is a thrill to be able to return to albums and be able to listen to them as if it's the first time. There is no lack of spaciousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Audionut11's and my ETC look remarkably similar except for my kicker.

I'm at 8.7ms before I drop all remaining reflections below -30dB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Yeah, both your ETCs show tons of very early reflections biggrin.gif

Make me jealous. Post some graphs tongue.gif
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 04:29 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
 
I would have said yes previously just based on general concencous. However so far, each time I have increased the dampening of the room I have preferred the outcome. I'm sure there is some form of bias in this judgement, but as I sit here and listen while typing this, I'm literally in love. There is no listening fatigue. I don't hear reflections from the side, or behind or any other direction. I personally prefer the ability to be able to hear nuances in recordings that I never knew existed, it really is a thrill to be able to return to albums and be able to listen to them as if it's the first time. There is no lack of spaciousness.

 

I entirely agree with you. I do think it is personal preference, but the 'non-environment' model does seem to me to be the one I am pursuing. Like you, I have found sonic improvement every time I have added treatments. Similarly, there is no lack of spaciousness - in fact, by removing as much of the room as possible, I find that the soundstage sounds incredibly huge, when it is required. Note that I use my HT only for movies which are, of course, almost always multichannel. I am not able to go as far as you as I cannot afford the breathing apparatus (joke) I have some remnant of aesthetic considerations left, but I am sure that if I could I would hear exactly what you hear.


Audionut11's Avatar Audionut11 04:31 AM 01-03-2014


This says to be between 0.2 and 0.5 for the midrange. Going by the recommendations listed within, the room isn't overly dead.

Looks like I need to dampen 250hz and 500hz just a smidgen more.

Any ideas? I have 300mm of pink fluffy on the close wall which should be giving me 90% absorption at 250hz.



The far wall is over 4 meters away from the speaker in question.

I have 300mm of absorption in the ceiling cloud also, but I'm almost positive it's the ceiling reflection causing this dip.




Floor dampening reduces the dip to what is seen. Without the floor dampening the dip is around 10dB greater.
Audionut11's Avatar Audionut11 04:32 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Similarly, there is no lack of spaciousness - in fact, by removing as much of the room as possible, I find that the soundstage sounds incredibly huge, when it is required.

Absolutely Keith. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am not able to go as far as you as I cannot afford the breathing apparatus (joke) I have some remnant of aesthetic considerations left, but I am sure that if I could I would hear exactly what you hear.

I'm confident I can get the same sound with the dampening looking more aesthetically pleasing. In fact, I'm more then confident that the results would be a little better with the dampening suitably supported. It has a tendency to sag over time in it's current configuration.

I'll make a promise to get it done by mid Feb. That should give me the incentive required. biggrin.gif
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 04:44 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Similarly, there is no lack of spaciousness - in fact, by removing as much of the room as possible, I find that the soundstage sounds incredibly huge, when it is required.

Absolutely Keith. smile.gif

 

Yes, I don't really understand why people would think otherwise with m/ch sources (I can see the argument for 2 channel music). All the 'ambience' and 'space' needed is already recorded into the track. I just want my system to be able to reproduce it.  Last night, I watched Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol and there is a scene in it where Tom Cruise's character is running through a sandstorm, chasing the bad guy. My small room became simply vast during that scene as wind and sand whirled all around me - but I was also able to hear every little precise detail that was also mixed into that scene - including at one point individual grains of sand bouncing off things. It is as close to 'being there' as I could want. The most immediately obvious improvement I noticed when I started adding treatments was the increased audible detail and the pinpoint precision with which it was placed in the sound field. And this has continued as I have added more absorption. I just love the imaging now and I marvel every time I watch a well-mixed movie at just how precisely I can point to the exact location of individual sounds. I really can - I can point to a spot in the room and say to myself "that sound came from there...". 

 

I am not 'recommending' this approach to anyone, as I can fully understand other people have different objectives and listen to different things. All my HT listening is m/ch movies. But for me (and you as well it seems) this is the road to sonic nirvana. 


Audionut11's Avatar Audionut11 05:03 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

All the 'ambience' and 'space' needed is already recorded into the track. I just want my system to be able to reproduce it.

I find the same for 2 channel sources also Keith. Remove the ambience from your own room, and suddenly you can hear detail in the recordings that was otherwise being masked. Including the ambience from the recording studio, or live sound stage, or wherever else the music was recorded.
I would love to be able to hear Jims room. I'm super interested to hear how his specific reflections add to the sound field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The most immediately obvious improvement I noticed when I started adding treatments was the increased audible detail and the pinpoint precision with which it was placed in the sound field. And this has continued as I have added more absorption. I just love the imaging now and I marvel every time I watch a well-mixed movie at just how precisely I can point to the exact location of individual sounds. I really can - I can point to a spot in the room and say to myself "that sound came from there...".

Agreed.

And for the ambience, you simply can't pinpoint it. Which is insanely awesome. It feels like you are there inside the movie.
markus767's Avatar markus767 07:23 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

I have 300mm of absorption in the ceiling cloud also, but I'm almost positive it's the ceiling reflection causing this dip.




Floor dampening reduces the dip to what is seen. Without the floor dampening the dip is around 10dB greater.

Do you get that 200Hz dip from every speaker with and without the sub? What's the crossover frequency to the sub?
Audionut11's Avatar Audionut11 08:26 AM 01-03-2014
It's shifted lower in frequency with the right speaker. Sloping ceiling upwards towards the right speaker. Sub has no effect, and a crossover @ 80hz.

I'll double check it's not floor bounce at the next opportunity, by loading that area with a large amount of fluffy. I didn't use the mirror method with the ceiling cloud, but it's 1100mm wide with a listening distance of a little over 1800mm long.

Bottom driver.


Top driver.


Both speakers also have the same null (masked by EQ above) from 480-630hz. -12dB in the left speaker and -7dB in the right.

Looking at the reflection path delay figures, this puts the floor here in the ETC.






No large spikes at the ceiling distance either.

edit: The top driver delay from the floor is rather close to that spike @ 2.14ms-2.76ms. This suggests I should move the floor dampening slightly towards the listening position correct?
pepar's Avatar pepar 09:40 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post


I would have said yes previously just based on general concencous. However so far, each time I have increased the dampening of the room I have preferred the outcome. I'm sure there is some form of bias in this judgement, but as I sit here and listen while typing this, I'm literally in love. There is no listening fatigue. I don't hear reflections from the side, or behind or any other direction. I personally prefer the ability to be able to hear nuances in recordings that I never knew existed, it really is a thrill to be able to return to albums and be able to listen to them as if it's the first time. There is no lack of spaciousness.

You are listening nearfield so at least for LCR, it is you and the source with the engineer (or venue) supplying the atmosphere. Nearfield, with good gear and content, is MAGICAL. In my room, my MLP is nearfield or borderline nearfield, and it sounds excellent. But the envelopment from the surrounds is missing the "air" that I think should be there. IMO, the surround field content collapses a bit before I think it should.

Jeff
jim19611961's Avatar jim19611961 09:57 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post


I have 300mm of absorption in the ceiling cloud also, but I'm almost positive it's the ceiling reflection causing this dip.




Floor dampening reduces the dip to what is seen. Without the floor dampening the dip is around 10dB greater.

If you read "My Room" thread, I had a null/dip in exactly the same place and a good deal of the thread illustrates what I did about it. Unfortunately, this doesn't mean what caused mine is the same as whats causing yours. But there maybe some ideas there that may help. Just for grins, try moving your speakers closer to each other. In my case, this moved the null/dip.

Also keep in mine that absorption coefficient doesn't equate to percent. I.E. a .9 coefficient doesn't equal 90%.

I have never seen sliced ETC's at 500hz be level with those at 1 or 2K. I wouldn't worry much about this.
jim19611961's Avatar jim19611961 10:37 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

I find the same for 2 channel sources also Keith. Remove the ambience from your own room, and suddenly you can hear detail in the recordings that was otherwise being masked. Including the ambience from the recording studio, or live sound stage, or wherever else the music was recorded.
I would love to be able to hear Jims room. I'm super interested to hear how his specific reflections add to the sound field.
Agreed.

And for the ambience, you simply can't pinpoint it. Which is insanely awesome. It feels like you are there inside the movie.

Drop by any time smile.gif

Do keep in mind that preserving the recording in its entirety is the goal of delayed reflective based rooms also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, I don't really understand why people would think otherwise with m/ch sources (I can see the argument for 2 channel music). All the 'ambience' and 'space' needed is already recorded into the track. I just want my system to be able to reproduce it.  Last night, I watched Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol and there is a scene in it where Tom Cruise's character is running through a sandstorm, chasing the bad guy. My small room became simply vast during that scene as wind and sand whirled all around me - but I was also able to hear every little precise detail that was also mixed into that scene - including at one point individual grains of sand bouncing off things. It is as close to 'being there' as I could want. The most immediately obvious improvement I noticed when I started adding treatments was the increased audible detail and the pinpoint precision with which it was placed in the sound field. And this has continued as I have added more absorption. I just love the imaging now and I marvel every time I watch a well-mixed movie at just how precisely I can point to the exact location of individual sounds. I really can - I can point to a spot in the room and say to myself "that sound came from there...". 

I am not 'recommending' this approach to anyone, as I can fully understand other people have different objectives and listen to different things. All my HT listening is m/ch movies. But for me (and you as well it seems) this is the road to sonic nirvana. 

HT and 2ch Audio are different animals requiring different approaches for optimization. I completely agree with you here. Interestingly though, the task for HT would seem a simple one if killing all the room ambiance/reflections is the goal. 18" of pink fluffy on every wall and ceiling surface should do it and deal with bass issues pretty effectively as well. Might not be a great room for conversation though biggrin.gif
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 11:23 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, I don't really understand why people would think otherwise with m/ch sources (I can see the argument for 2 channel music). All the 'ambience' and 'space' needed is already recorded into the track. I just want my system to be able to reproduce it.  Last night, I watched Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol and there is a scene in it where Tom Cruise's character is running through a sandstorm, chasing the bad guy. My small room became simply vast during that scene as wind and sand whirled all around me - but I was also able to hear every little precise detail that was also mixed into that scene - including at one point individual grains of sand bouncing off things. It is as close to 'being there' as I could want. The most immediately obvious improvement I noticed when I started adding treatments was the increased audible detail and the pinpoint precision with which it was placed in the sound field. And this has continued as I have added more absorption. I just love the imaging now and I marvel every time I watch a well-mixed movie at just how precisely I can point to the exact location of individual sounds. I really can - I can point to a spot in the room and say to myself "that sound came from there...". 

I am not 'recommending' this approach to anyone, as I can fully understand other people have different objectives and listen to different things. All my HT listening is m/ch movies. But for me (and you as well it seems) this is the road to sonic nirvana. 

HT and 2ch Audio are different animals requiring different approaches for optimization. I completely agree with you here. Interestingly though, the task for HT would seem a simple one if killing all the room ambiance/reflections is the goal. 18" of pink fluffy on every wall and ceiling surface should do it and deal with bass issues pretty effectively as well. Might not be a great room for conversation though biggrin.gif

 

I have long since thought that my decision to use my HT for movies only has greatly simplified my task. Almost all of my ~1000 CD music collection is 2 channel stereo. I have no real interest in m/ch music and I dislike upmixing 2 channel into several channels - just a personal preference thing, nothing against those who prefer PLII music etc. So I have kept my music system separate from the HT.  I could envisage, if it were practical, using your suggestion and covering the entire room with PF :)

 

My current room is not 'ideal' for conversation, but that doesn't matter at all to me as it is never used for conversation. I wouldn't say it is 'dead' - more that it is 'not alive' if you see the distinction. 


jim19611961's Avatar jim19611961 11:27 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I have long since thought that my decision to use my HT for movies only has greatly simplified my task. Almost all of my ~1000 CD music collection is 2 channel stereo. I have no real interest in m/ch music and I dislike upmixing 2 channel into several channels - just a personal preference thing, nothing against those who prefer PLII music etc. So I have kept my music system separate from the HT.  I could envisage, if it were practical, using your suggestion and covering the entire room with PF smile.gif

My current room is not 'ideal' for conversation, but that doesn't matter at all to me as it is never used for conversation. I wouldn't say it is 'dead' - more that it is 'not alive' if you see the distinction. 

Like you, its not how the room sounds with the sound off that is important to me. Its how it sounds with the sound on tongue.gif
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 11:46 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I have long since thought that my decision to use my HT for movies only has greatly simplified my task. Almost all of my ~1000 CD music collection is 2 channel stereo. I have no real interest in m/ch music and I dislike upmixing 2 channel into several channels - just a personal preference thing, nothing against those who prefer PLII music etc. So I have kept my music system separate from the HT.  I could envisage, if it were practical, using your suggestion and covering the entire room with PF smile.gif

My current room is not 'ideal' for conversation, but that doesn't matter at all to me as it is never used for conversation. I wouldn't say it is 'dead' - more that it is 'not alive' if you see the distinction. 

Like you, its not how the room sounds with the sound off that is important to me. Its how it sounds with the sound on tongue.gif

 

Hahaha - succinctly put!


pepar's Avatar pepar 02:49 PM 01-03-2014
I have a Dayton EMM-6 balanced (XLR) mic with Tascam US-122mkII USB preamp w/phantom power. While they work just fine, the Tasc has w-a-y more features/functions that I use for simple acoustical testing. So, perhaps I should off the pair on eBay and go the USB mic/HDMI route? My guess is that anyone who is here never used the gear I mention, but I thought I'd ask. Plus, setting up the Tasc can be a real tweaky process.

Jeff
markus767's Avatar markus767 04:10 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

It's shifted lower in frequency with the right speaker. Sloping ceiling upwards towards the right speaker. Sub has no effect, and a crossover @ 80hz.

Could you measure just the left speaker at a couple of points in front, above and to the side of the listening position? I'd like to see how the peak moves in frequency or varies with position.
Audionut11's Avatar Audionut11 04:11 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

In my room, my MLP is nearfield or borderline nearfield, and it sounds excellent. But the envelopment from the surrounds is missing the "air" that I think should be there. IMO, the surround field content collapses a bit before I think it should.

How high are your surrounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

If you read "My Room" thread, I had a null/dip in exactly the same place and a good deal of the thread illustrates what I did about it.

Cheers Jim. For some reason I only ever bothered to read the last few pages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Drop by any time smile.gif

Do keep in mind that preserving the recording in its entirety is the goal of delayed reflective based rooms also.

Thanks for the offer. Now I just need to convince the missus we need a holiday to Texas.

To be honest, I haven't even given the subject of delayed reflectivity a moment of my attention. Been to busy researching other information biggrin.gif
Apart from the niggle @ 200hz and the need to make this room of mine look better then a used fluffy yard, things have slowed down for me. But being able to attempt it in this room would be an exercise in frustration IMO. Something to try latter on down the track wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Plus, setting up the Tasc can be a real tweaky process.

UMIK-1. REW asks for the calibration file on load, hit measure. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Could you measure just the left speaker at a couple of points in front, above and to the side of the listening position? I'd like to see how the peak moves in frequency or varies with position.

I will do, thanks Markus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Yeah, both your ETCs show tons of very early reflections biggrin.gif

If I can get them to the point of my centre speaker, I will be a happy man.


AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 04:59 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I have a Dayton EMM-6 balanced (XLR) mic with Tascam US-122mkII USB preamp w/phantom power. While they work just fine, the Tasc has w-a-y more features/functions that I use for simple acoustical testing. So, perhaps I should off the pair on eBay and go the USB mic/HDMI route? My guess is that anyone who is here never used the gear I mention, but I thought I'd ask. Plus, setting up the Tasc can be a real tweaky process.

Jeff


Jeff, I have a "legacy" REW kit as well as a "new" kit, consisting of a USB mic and a laptop that supports HDMI.  Both kits function just fine for me, and the measurements are similar from both kits, as you would expect.  However, the new kit is considerably quicker to set up, and is much less finicky.  So, if you have a laptop with HDMI, I can certainly recommended the upgrade.  Either the UMM-6 or the UMIK-1 USB mics are good choices, and I recommend you order from Cross-Spectrum Labs so that you get the custom calibration files that they supply with each order.


andyc56's Avatar andyc56 06:12 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I have a Dayton EMM-6 balanced (XLR) mic with Tascam US-122mkII USB preamp w/phantom power. While they work just fine, the Tasc has w-a-y more features/functions that I use for simple acoustical testing. So, perhaps I should off the pair on eBay and go the USB mic/HDMI route? My guess is that anyone who is here never used the gear I mention, but I thought I'd ask. Plus, setting up the Tasc can be a real tweaky process.

I have the US-144mkII and originally encountered some fussy setup issues too. But then I upgraded to the latest REW beta with ASIO support and used the native ASIO drivers for the Tascam. This made it a snap to set up, as all dependency on Windows Control Panel sound card configuration went away. The only thing that needed to be done was to set up the sound card via its ASIO Control Panel, which is launched from within REW itself in Preferences, Soundcard tab. So no more going back and forth between Windows Control Panel sound setup and REW. ASIO4ALL with HDMI seems to actually be a wee bit more fussy than the Tascam native ASIO in this regard, requiring the Windows Control Panel sound card settings (sample rate, bit depth etc.) to match up with REW. At least, that's my recollection from a few months ago.

Back to the normally scheduled USB mic-related discussion... smile.gif
pepar's Avatar pepar 06:38 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post


Back to the normally scheduled USB mic-related discussion... smile.gif
I may PM you when I get back measuring if that's OK.

Jeff
pepar's Avatar pepar 06:55 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


Jeff, I have a "legacy" REW kit as well as a "new" kit, consisting of a USB mic and a laptop that supports HDMI.  Both kits function just fine for me, and the measurements are similar from both kits, as you would expect.  However, the new kit is considerably quicker to set up, and is much less finicky.  So, if you have a laptop with HDMI, I can certainly recommended the upgrade.  Either the UMM-6 or the UMIK-1 USB mics are good choices, and I recommend you order from Cross-Spectrum Labs so that you get the custom calibration files that they supply with each order.

Doesn't the HDMI kit allow EASY testing of any channel in an MCH system?
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