Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 271 - AVS Forum
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post #8101 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post


(Nearly all) MultEQ XT32-equipped units have two discrete sub channels. Systems with that flavor of Audyssey can use the sub distance tweak ... if nededed. Not all systems are improved by that tweak. Mine is one of them.

Jeff

Crude, that is my issue, I don't have XT32, I have the version that measures 8 positions :(

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post #8102 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 05:18 AM
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His other issue is that he has three subs. If two of them are equidistant, he might get away with having a pair of them (connected with a Y-adaptor) on one sub channel output, and the other on a second output if he has a version of XT32 with the two discrete sub channels.

But if he doesn't have a version of XT32 with Sub EQ HT, OR he doesn't have a pair of subs that are equidistant among his three, he's going to want something like a MiniDSP unit, as the most cost-effective solution. He'll need a solution where the subs can have their distance, level trims and possibly phase set individually, and have to experiment how to get them all set as correctly as possible collectively, to get as smooth a summated sub response as he can, before running any EQ. With three subs where any two of them aren't at the same distance from MLP, he's going to need a sophisticated solution.

How you do this isn't trivial. You're going to want to do some research on which MiniDSP unit you'd want. Probably something like a Balanced 2 x 4. You'd run a single sub cable from the receiver's sub pre-out to the MiniDSP, and then route the output to each of your three individual subs. .

Audyssey could be useful to find a distance for each sub by connecting them one at a time to the sub channel output, get a distance read from a basic Audyssey cal, and then write down the distance. Repeat for the other two subs.

Then comes the real fun: using REW to measure the overall sub response, and manage each individual sub's level and distance settings (tweaking as necessary) in order to capture as smooth an overall response as possible before any EQ. You would then wind up EQing the single summated sub response as one. Audyssey will set a distance and level for that summary response, but you still need to get the individual parameters right first. You'll want to do some homework on the MiniDSP thread and the threads about aligning multiple subs before getting too much further. Anything else would be operating in the dark.

That's leaving the distance tweak for getting the overall splice of mains and subs correct for last, post-Audyssey. It's more important to get the overall sub response right first IMO. You've got to learn before you walk, after all.

 

Oh my....that is what I was afraid of.

 

My plan is to get my 4th, yes 4th sub hooked up, run some baseline graphs (with all my new knowledge) and then post and see what you all think should be my next steps!  If I only knew what I knew when I bought my AVR originally.

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post #8103 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
 

OK, so I read a few times the sub tweak, and I think perhaps it is only geared to those with "sub optimized / integration version" of Audyssey...something Onkyo takes away ?

 

Meaning this "and Audyssey set the subwoofers to 10' & 12.5', "

 

In my AVR I only have one distance (yet I have three subs) - does this mean I am SOL ?   Or am I misinterpreting this ?

 

Which AVR do you have and which version of MultEQ is in it?

 

If you have the Onkyo 818, or 929, then you don't have SubEQ HT so you can't use Audyssey to optimise your multiple subs.

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post #8104 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

 

Which AVR do you have and which version of MultEQ is in it?

 

If you have the Onkyo 818, or 929, then you don't have SubEQ HT so you can't use Audyssey to optimise your multiple subs.

 

Onkyo 809 with Audyssey MultiXT :(

 

If I have issues guess it is a Mini DSP or something like that....

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post #8105 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post

OK, so I read a few times the sub tweak, and I think perhaps it is only geared to those with "sub optimized / integration version" of Audyssey...something Onkyo takes away ?

Meaning this "and Audyssey set the subwoofers to 10' & 12.5', "

In my AVR I only have one distance (yet I have three subs) - does this mean I am SOL ?   Or am I misinterpreting this ?

(Nearly all) MultEQ XT32-equipped units have two discrete sub channels. Systems with that flavor of Audyssey can use the sub distance tweak ... if nededed. Not all systems are improved by that tweak. Mine is one of them.

Jeff

 

Yes, I recall you saying that long ago. Everyone else, though, who has tried the sub distance tweak has measured, heard and reported significant improvements. Jerry's graphs, for example, are included in the Guide I complied and they are typical of the substantial improvements achieved.

 

The problem arises because Audyssey never measures the combined response of the subs and mains together, so it can’t measure the delays. It can only calculate them. Sometimes, in your case for example, it calculates them correctly, but in most cases (100% of all other reported cases) it gets the delay wrong, which is where we are able to intervene, adjust the delay and hence get the splice so much better.

 

The only way to know by how much Audyssey has got it wrong (or if it has got it right) is to measure the frequency response around the splice and observe if it is optimal or if, by altering the sub delay, it can be improved. I am glad it got yours right but yours is the sole reported example of it doing so.

 

For the convenience of the thread, I reproduce below the improvement Jerry achieved and which I mention above. These improvements are typical of what can be done using the sub distance tweak.

 

Impressive isn’t it?

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post #8106 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

 

Which AVR do you have and which version of MultEQ is in it?

 

If you have the Onkyo 818, or 929, then you don't have SubEQ HT so you can't use Audyssey to optimise your multiple subs.

 

Onkyo 809 with Audyssey MultiXT :(

 

If I have issues guess it is a Mini DSP or something like that....

 

Unfortunately, yes. I've just posted the graphs showing what can be achieved. Of course, you can do something similar using PEQ.

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post #8107 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 05:56 AM
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Keith,
Regarding sub distance tweak steps, I measured the three things you mentioned @ -11db MV and my subs only graph is about 15db higher than center only. Is there something in REW that I can overlay the three graphs and they stay within the same spl? Or I need to measure subs only at a lower MV (-26db in my case)? Thanks.
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post #8108 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Keith,
Regarding sub distance tweak steps, I measured the three things you mentioned @ -11db MV and my subs only graph is about 15db higher than center only. Is there something in REW that I can overlay the three graphs and they stay within the same spl? Or I need to measure subs only at a lower MV (-26db in my case)? Thanks.

You can adjust the individual traces by using the offset control on the trace you want to adjust. An example is shown below...

 

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post #8109 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

 

Yes, I recall you saying that long ago. Everyone else, though, who has tried the sub distance tweak has measured, heard and reported significant improvements. Jerry's graphs, for example, are included in the Guide I complied and they are typical of the substantial improvements achieved.

 

 

 

While I agree that the example you included in the Guide show significant improvement, my recent experience has shown that the sub distance tweak improvements can vary significantly.  For example, in my current setup, I am hard-pressed to achieve similar results.  As hard as I try, the improvement is only marginal.  I suspect there are a number of variables that affect the outcome, one of which could be the amount of room treatments.  Nevertheless, I always go through the exercise, and firmly believe the process has value and can produce significant results on some setups.

 

IOW, it doesn't surprise me that Jeff sees no improvement.

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post #8110 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You can adjust the individual traces by using the offset control on the trace you want to adjust. An example is shown below...


Exactly what I need. Thanks.
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post #8111 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

While I agree that the example you included in the Guide show significant improvement, my recent experience has shown that the sub distance tweak improvements can vary significantly.  For example, in my current setup, I am hard-pressed to achieve similar results.  As hard as I try, the improvement is only marginal.  I suspect there are a number of variables that affect the outcome, one of which could be the amount of room treatments.  Nevertheless, I always go through the exercise, and firmly believe the process has value and can produce significant results on some setups.

IOW, it doesn't surprise me that Jeff sees no improvement.

I just reports the news. smile.gif

Jeff
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post #8112 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

 

Yes, I recall you saying that long ago. Everyone else, though, who has tried the sub distance tweak has measured, heard and reported significant improvements. Jerry's graphs, for example, are included in the Guide I complied and they are typical of the substantial improvements achieved.

 

 

 

While I agree that the example you included in the Guide show significant improvement, my recent experience has shown that the sub distance tweak improvements can vary significantly.  For example, in my current setup, I am hard-pressed to achieve similar results.  As hard as I try, the improvement is only marginal.  I suspect there are a number of variables that affect the outcome, one of which could be the amount of room treatments.  Nevertheless, I always go through the exercise, and firmly believe the process has value and can produce significant results on some setups.

 

IOW, it doesn't surprise me that Jeff sees no improvement.

 

But is that not because you have already optimised the FR through other means - treatments, placement etc, as you hint at?  IOW, nothing to do with Audyssey?  

 

I agree that it is always worthwhile to go through the process - this is an area which Audyssey consistently seems to fall down on (unsurprisingly as it doesn't at any time measure the combined sub/main response).

 

FWIW I always manage to make an improvement but the amount of the improvement is less than when I had fewer treatments and less optimally placed speakers and subs (thanks, Sanjay!).

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post #8113 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 11:14 AM
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You're welcome. I always take all my measurements with the subs as Audyssey set them (ie "flat") when making the distance tweak. Once done, I set my subs to how I actually use them and then measure again as a reality check to ensure that nothing unexpected has happened.  If you post your before tweak and after tweak graphs I am sure you will get plenty of comment on them smile.gif
Here are my graphs for the Auddessey Subs distance tweak with Xovered @80hz. I have not got a chance to weak anything. These are my measurement results with only one mic Auddessey calibration (I know but I was up till 3AM this morning- this stuff is fun) as I just wanted to see my graphs. I will do all 8 and then tweak. These graphs are with what Auddessey sets with one mic cal. Sub1 distance: 11.6', sub2 distance: 7.7' to MLP. How does it look as is? Please suggest which directions I should add or subtract for sub 1 and 2. Thanks so much for helping.

Center only:


Subs only:


Center and Subs:


All three:
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post #8114 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 11:39 AM
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The combined measurement looks worse than the separate measurements, which indicates that adjusting the distances might result in an improvement. And BTW, it is spelled "Audyssey". smile.gif
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post #8115 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 11:42 AM
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^^Thanks Austin. Any idea where to start? and thanks for the spelling correction. frown.gif
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post #8116 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 11:59 AM
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^^Thanks Austin. Any idea where to start? and thanks for the spelling correction. frown.gif

 

Yes, you need to access Keith's sub tweak instructions (http://www.avsforum.com/attachments/74825) and follow the instructions.  It is reasonably straight-forward.  Come back here if you have questions.

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post #8117 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You're welcome. I always take all my measurements with the subs as Audyssey set them (ie "flat") when making the distance tweak. Once done, I set my subs to how I actually use them and then measure again as a reality check to ensure that nothing unexpected has happened.  If you post your before tweak and after tweak graphs I am sure you will get plenty of comment on them smile.gif
Here are my graphs for the Auddessey Subs distance tweak with Xovered @80hz. I have not got a chance to weak anything. These are my measurement results with only one mic Auddessey calibration (I know but I was up till 3AM this morning- this stuff is fun) as I just wanted to see my graphs. I will do all 8 and then tweak. These graphs are with what Auddessey sets with one mic cal. Sub1 distance: 11.6', sub2 distance: 7.7' to MLP. How does it look as is? Please suggest which directions I should add or subtract for sub 1 and 2. Thanks so much for helping.

Center only:


Subs only:


Center and Subs:



 

 

You can see the problem around the 80Hz frequency. Now you need to follow the Guide and adjust the sub delay until you improve that area. Get it as flat as you can. Start by increasing one sub in 1 ft intervals, measure, observe and repeat until you get the smoothest response. The Guide has more detailed info on how to do the adjustments.  Please remember to take a before and after graph for us!

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post #8118 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 12:45 PM
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Thanks Keith and Austin. Per my subs only graph, I assume Audyssey has found the correct distances for my sub, correct? If so, I will increase or decrease the distance of both sub by a foot till the combined response is flat. Sound easy enough. I will post both before and after graphs. Thanks so much. So far, at least I am happy with my subs only result smile.gif but have not watched a movie or listened to a song yet as it was about 3Am when I got to this point. Thanks again.
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post #8119 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 02:46 PM
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First go at the sub distance tweak. Doesn't seem that terrible as is, but kinda bumpy between 60 and 80Hz, maybe can smooth that a bit? Going to try to see what happens.



Edit: after numerous distance changes, up to +/- 4 ft. for each sub (2) in 6" increments, in all the combos, I'm not seeing any changes in the response for the subs by themselves. Hard to say that the graph diffs are really any more than measurement-to-measurement variation, lines are almost totally superimposed except for slight depth variation at the ~168Hz null. Must be doing it wrong...
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post #8120 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 07:35 PM
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after some tweaking...i decided to give audyssey first then dsp a try...although more filters are needed its flatter than I have ever gotten it:

unsmoothed:


smoothed:



unfortunatly the sub distance tweak does not work for me...also remember this is with ONLY placement option...both on front wall...so there is NO optimal placement in my room...

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post #8121 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 07:37 PM
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Have you tried the sub distance tweak yet? It is possible that it could flatten that dip 80-90Hz.
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post #8122 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 07:45 PM
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Yeah. Either I'm doing it wrong or it just won't work for me frown.gif

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post #8123 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 07:49 PM
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As long as you tried it and followed the instructions, I wouldn't worry about it. You may have seen my response to Keith--I don't get a significant improvement with the distance tweak either. Regardless, I think you should be very happy with the response as presented in these new measurements. Quite good indeed.
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post #8124 of 12047 Old 01-17-2014, 07:53 PM
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Thanks a ton!! I am pleased with the results. And it's good your informed opinion coincides with that smile.gif

Have a good night!

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post #8125 of 12047 Old 01-18-2014, 08:07 AM
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It seems like all the graphs are in the 70- 90 db range while mine are past 100db.
I set everything up as follows. Am I missing something here?
Subs were leveled matched in Aud to 76db.
Audyssey set trims to front right sub at -6.6 and rear left sub to -3.5
Levels on the subs are front right -17 and rear right -15
Taking REW measurement says I have 10 db headroom left.
RTA reads from 55 - 62.
AVR Volume level is -10
Took more measurements this morning. Audyssey on = Blue. Audyssey off = purple


I tried the distance tweak. Blue: Audyssey on. Purple: Audyssey on with distance tweak.

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post #8126 of 12047 Old 01-18-2014, 08:16 AM
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So after getting my submersives, I finally was going to break down and try to get REW to work. I made it all the way up to section 5 in the REW setup guide, but I find that I cannot continue.

On Sec 5, Step #2, it says "configure REW to output a signal to the left speaker" - Where? How? Is this what I did in section #3 in the preferences menu? This step is confusing to me.
On Sec 5, Step #4 it says an SPL meter is REQUIRED to calibrate REW, but at the beginning of the guide it says this is optional with the UMIK-1, which I have.
On Sec 5, Step #6 it says my Calibrate button should be Red. It isn't. And when I click it, it says "Please select the audio input for the SPL meter", but it gives me no choice or no place to do that.

So I'm kind of stuck and confused.
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post #8127 of 12047 Old 01-18-2014, 08:31 AM
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Check Step 3a, line 7:

 

 

In the Output box, select HDMI out 1 to output sound to the left channel, HDMI Output 2 for the right channel.

 

"SPL meter is REQUIRED to calibrate REW".  You are reading the mic calibration section.  If you are using a UMIK-1 with a calibration file with a Sensitivity parameter, the mic is already calibrated, so you don't need to go through the mic calibration process.  However, if you want to check the mic calibration (which, IMO is always a good idea), then you need an external device with which to measure the calibration test signal.

 

The Calibration button will be red if your mic needs to be calibrated.  Since you are using the UMIK-1, calibration is not required, so the button is not red.

 

Did you read the section pertaining to the UMIK-1 immediately following Step 5?

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post #8128 of 12047 Old 01-18-2014, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Check Step 3a, line 7:




In the Output box, select HDMI out 1 to output sound to the left channel, HDMI Output 2 for the right channel.

"SPL meter is REQUIRED to calibrate REW".  You are reading the mic calibration section.  If you are using a UMIK-1 with a calibration file with a Sensitivity parameter, the mic is already calibrated, so you don't need to go through the mic calibration process.  However, if you want to check the mic calibration (which, IMO is always a good idea), then you need an external device with which to measure the calibration test signal.

The Calibration button will be red if your mic needs to be calibrated.  Since you are using the UMIK-1, calibration is not required, so the button is not red.

Did you read the section pertaining to the UMIK-1 immediately following Step 5?

OK, Everything up to section 5 I had done already, so I had the output box configured. Everything worked/displayed as expected up until section 5+

So I don't need to do section 5 then?

As far as the section pertaining to "the section pertaining to the UMIK-1 immediately following Step 5"...Do you mean after section 5? I do see a whole part on the UMIK-1 later in the document after step 12.. in it's own little part. Is that it?

So assuming my mic is Calibrated, I went straight to "Measure", which tells me that "SPL Meter audio input not available".
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post #8129 of 12047 Old 01-18-2014, 09:09 AM
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The REW Guide has been updated to Version 3.2 (January 18, 2014).

 

Changes in this version:

 

 

3.2

Jan 18, 2014

-          Updated section describing REW support for USB mic’s with Sensitivity parameters.

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post #8130 of 12047 Old 01-18-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damelon View Post


OK, Everything up to section 5 I had done already, so I had the output box configured. Everything worked/displayed as expected up until section 5+

So I don't need to do section 5 then?

As far as the section pertaining to "the section pertaining to the UMIK-1 immediately following Step 5"...Do you mean after section 5? I do see a whole part on the UMIK-1 later in the document after step 12.. in it's own little part. Is that it?

So assuming my mic is Calibrated, I went straight to "Measure", which tells me that "SPL Meter audio input not available".

 

Read the most recent update referenced in the previous post.  Please provide feedback as to whether the section is written clearly and is useful to you.

 

I suspect your calibration file is missing the Sensitivity factor.

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