Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 274 - AVS Forum
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post #8191 of 10741 Old 01-19-2014, 04:50 PM
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I tried changing the sub distances using the web GUI, and I was unable to. Good luck.
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post #8192 of 10741 Old 01-19-2014, 05:08 PM
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^ I'll not bother then. I was just thinking that I'm way over-complicating things by dragging the/my Denon interface idiosyncracies into this tweak. And into the thread... The main thing is to determine if the sub distance changes take effect, period, and not worry about making it easy/convenient since it's not something I'll do very often.

Edit: I'll still check out the web GUI for this, for interest's sake (it might work!), but won't count on it for actual measurements. Unreliable=useless for me.
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post #8193 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

No, this is changing the LEFT SPEAKER distance.
XO was 80.

Jerry already said it but never change the delay of the mains. It will distort imaging.

Besides that, your crossover is at 80Hz but when you change delay of the left speaker the magnitude response above 130Hz changes. That doesn't make sense. The frequency response doesn't change just because the delay is changed hence I think you've measured not just L+sub or your crossover frequency is higher. Maybe you're confusing the LFE low pass with the speaker crossover?

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post #8194 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
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OK Followup question.

So I am at the measuring stage, and I see the chart you have where you listed all the measurements to take. The first 6 measurements are L/R/C channels without the sub, but even in stereo mode, the AVR includes the subs, do I have to turn the sub off on the AVR or physically switch it off prior to measuring? I'm assuming yes but wanted to know what is expected.

Because of bass management, the subs would normally be included in a frequency sweep. So yes, to exclude the subs, you would need to flip the power switch on the subs and turn them off. Don't go crazy with measurements. To get a basic flavor of how your system is working, take three basic measurements: left+subs, right+subs, and center+subs. To assess the bass region, measure 15-300Hz, no smoothing. To assess the full spectrum, measure 15-20,000Hz, either 1/6 or 1/12 smoothing.

Jerry, in case you missed it, Damelon has been Submersified x2! He might want to extend the low end just a bit more than 15 Hz ala another frequent contributor to this thread! biggrin.gif

This post is meant for you Mr Barnes for more than one reason! wink.gif

 

 

:) Thanks, Joe.

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post #8195 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Jerry already said it but never change the delay of the mains. It will distort imaging.

Besides that, your crossover is at 80Hz but when you change delay of the left speaker the magnitude response above 130Hz changes. That doesn't make sense. The frequency response doesn't change just because the delay is changed hence I think you've measured not just L+sub or your crossover frequency is higher. Maybe you're confusing the LFE low pass with the speaker crossover?

No, I was just changing the distance to the left speaker, output to left, right and subs.

None of it makes sense to me, which is why I just keep taking measurements and seeing what happens.

As it turns out, I ended up lowering the crossover, which, much to my surprise (ignorance has its advantages), smoothed the dip at 70 - 80 Hz better than raising the XO did.

So it's at 50, and everything is packed up and put away, returning my family room to a usable condition, as opposed to the jumble of cables its been for a while.

Many thanks to all for your input.

Michael


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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #8196 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 06:12 AM
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^
Well, if you're satisfied with what you have now and didn't change the delay of the left speaker then leave it as it is. You probably could get better results with a higher crossover though.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #8197 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 08:22 AM
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Jerry, Keith and all, do you level match or gain match subs? Thanks.
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post #8198 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 08:50 AM
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post #8199 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Gain match.
How do you gain match?

Don't you just use what audyssey tells you to do?

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post #8200 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 09:36 AM
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Thanks Jerry. That is what I have been doing.
Brian, you just need to make sure your xs30s have exact same gain on the gain knobs or you can use a spl meter to measure them to about 85-90dbs with the spl meter placed in the mid way of the length or depth (the longest dimension of your sub)of your subs and about a few inches out. After you achieve this, run Audyssey but do not adjust your gain on your subs when Audyssey asks you to in the first step. Just click next to measure all posisitions. Set your sub trim levels to the mean (average) of the two sub trim differences set by Audyssey and you are now gain match.
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post #8201 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Gain match.
How do you gain match?

Don't you just use what audyssey tells you to do?

 

Read this post from member Craig John.  It should tell what you need to know on the procedure itself.  And in case you're wondering, you move the subs to the center of the room to remove (as much as possible) any boundary effects.  To take this procedure to the next level, you would perform the same procedure in an open field.

 

EDIT:  Link fixed

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post #8202 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 09:54 AM
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I don't think that's the link you meant to provide.


Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #8203 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
 

I don't think that's the link you meant to provide.

 

Thanks LBL...too many browser windows open! ;)

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post #8204 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:02 AM
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Are there benefits of gain matching vs level matching?

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post #8205 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:09 AM
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^^ to ensure both of your subs equally contribute to produce sound.
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post #8206 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

^^ to ensure both of your subs equally contribute to produce sound.
Damnit. I know what I'm doing tonight lol!!

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post #8207 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:14 AM
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Let me check their gain. What if they are both the same now? Let's say audyssey set them so they are gain matched. I shouldn't have to measure them individually correct?

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post #8208 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:15 AM
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Why would Audyssey create a huge dip compared to with no Audyssey running?
First image is without Audyssey off



Second image is with Audyssey running


Third is a combined graph Red = no Audyssey Blue = Audyssey
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post #8209 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:18 AM
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^^ to ensure both of your subs equally contribute to produce sound.

But it doesn't necessarily yield better frequency response, lower ringing or less point-to-point variance.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #8210 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:20 AM
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Let me check their gain. What if they are both the same now? Let's say audyssey set them so they are gain matched. I shouldn't have to measure them individually correct?

 

Once you gain match the subs, Audyssey will attempt to level match them during the calibration.  In order to defeat the level match, you'll need to adjust your trims by splitting the differences among them.  This is the only way you can preserve the gain match.  I believe some members in this thread are gain matching but not necessarily doing the last step.  I'm not sure why though as it seems to defeat the purpose.  There was quite a bit of discussion around the merits of gain vs. level matching but I don't remember if that was here or in the Audyssey thread.

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post #8211 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Are there benefits of gain matching vs level matching?

Craig touches on it as do some of the subsequent posts. Mainly, as I understand it, you gain additional headroom if you have a "near" sub and a "far" sub. I have been content to let Audyssey's level-matching scheme stand. Craig has three Submersives, so I am not really sure that he neds any additional headroom. I can tell you though that his system sounds friggin' stunning.

Jeff
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post #8212 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:24 AM
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Ok just checked. The gain knob on both subs is in the EXACT same position And audyssey had the gain in the avr the exact same for both subs -9.5 for sub1 and sub2. So how would I defeat that? Since there is no median (well ther IS but it's still -9.5)

Sorry for all the questions

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post #8213 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 10:36 AM
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And sometimes you purposely and advisedly do not want your different subs to contribute equally to the sound. Some subs are lots better at some things than other subs are. Or their amps are. Beware, as usual, of the one stop shopping solutions...better to do your own "research" and thus make a good decision rather than an easy one.
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Ok just checked. The gain knob on both subs is in the EXACT same position And audyssey had the gain in the avr the exact same for both subs -9.5 for sub1 and sub2. So how would I defeat that? Since there is no median (well ther IS but it's still -9.5)

Sorry for all the questions
You are all set then. Not only that you gain match but also you level match smile.gif
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post #8215 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 11:06 AM
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You are all set then. Not only that you gain match but also you level match smile.gif

Yup I'm perfect lmao!!

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And sometimes you purposely and advisedly do not want your different subs to contribute equally to the sound. Some subs are lots better at some things than other subs are. Or their amps are. Beware, as usual, of the one stop shopping solutions...better to do your own "research" and thus make a good decision rather than an easy one.

 

In the gain-matching procedure, it is clearly stated that the advantages of gain-matching are most noticeable when the subs are identical.  Any time you have mis-matched subs, configuring the bass response is usually considerably more difficult.  So, you are correct, there are conditions in which gain-matching is not the best answer.

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post #8217 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Ok just checked. The gain knob on both subs is in the EXACT same position And audyssey had the gain in the avr the exact same for both subs -9.5 for sub1 and sub2. So how would I defeat that? Since there is no median (well ther IS but it's still -9.5)

Sorry for all the questions

 

Well, I wouldn't worry too much about it if you are satisfied with the sound, Brian.  But let's be clear--your subs are not gain matched.  Specifically, just because the gain controls on the back of the subs look to be in the same position doesn't mean the subs are outputting a signal at the same level.  A typical analog gain knob on the back of a sub is quite sensitive, so a minor rotation can produce an output level change of a couple of dB's.

 

In my case, which may be quite different than yours, I have two subs on each of the two AVR sub channels.  So it is important to me that each sub on a channel is gain-matched with the other sub, since there is only one trim control for that channel.  By going through the gain-matching procedure, I was able to get a much smoother overall bass response for my 4-sub configuration.

 

Gain-matching, like other techniques including the distance tweak, is just one tool in the bag towards getting the bass response you want.  Eventually, we try all the tools, and select the tools that apply in our specific cases.  Not all tools work for everyone.

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post #8218 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 11:44 AM
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I hear ya. I am very pleased with my sound. But with all that are in this thread want the best response possible. So I want to try all possible tools smile.gif

Question. Where do I get the rumble tones to play so I can gain match?

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post #8219 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 11:48 AM
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Follow the instructions.  I output the sub channel level setting tone from the AVR.  I believe Keith has documented the gain-matching procedure quite nicely, and he may provide a link, should he be following this thread today.

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post #8220 of 10741 Old 01-20-2014, 11:54 AM
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Jerry: The "menu backing out" thing was my problem with the sub distance tweak the other day. Thanks for the tip, and perhaps people could look out for other Denon owners to prevent them falling into this trap. It is highly convenient and tempting to not leave the Distance menu, I bet most people wouldn't...so nothing would change and they might think they're optimized or the tweak doesn't work.

And BTW, if I set the sub distances in the X4000 web GUI and click the Set button, crude as it looks, the speaker distance OSD menu does reflect them when you call up the Distance display. [removed snarky Denon comment lol]

And more edit: I mis-spoke above, the web GUI for the X4000 will not let me change Sub 1, only Sub 2...should have tested better before typing...maybe put back that snarky comment. smile.gif
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