Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 277 - AVS Forum
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Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat > Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 05:34 PM 01-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Edit:
Kal needed a little help from AustinJerry's guide to complete his article. smile.gif

Acknowledged.



AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 06:37 PM 01-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Acknowledged.

Honored!
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 05:04 AM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Acknowledged.

Honored!

 

Woot!!  Outstanding!


Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 08:14 AM 01-22-2014
I just want to give my opinion after following the Audyssey subs distances tweak as I was finally able to watch a couple movies. I did two tweaks/changes to my system: 1. Move one sub to right back room corner and leave the other one upfront toward the center of room instead of having both upfront by my main. 2. Follow the Audyssey subs distance tweak with great success. My room now is energized/pressurized with lots of great bass that cannot be localized and I now do have a lot more of the tactile feeling. Before, I can tell that my bass was front heavy. I really do enjoy my system much more than I ever had. I truly believe this great result is from both of my subs placement changes and the distances tweak, and perhaps also with the close mics Audyssey cal patterns (within 3" from MLP). For the first time I can say that I have graphs to back my statement up smile.gif. Dialogue is easy to hear without having to bump it up 2-3db like before. Front three blends so much nicer with my subs now; perhaps the reason for unlocalized bass regardless of having one sub kind of nearfield (as compared to before). I was afraid of being able to locate the sub near me, but I swear I could not (I was even looking at it from my LP). I usually listen at -10 MV but had to reduce to -15 as it was loud with strong deep bass coming from everywhere in my ~2600 ft^3 seal room. I would like to thanks everyone for helping especially to Keith and Jerry for such an easy to follow sub distances tweak and simplified with REW write ups as I learn in just a short period of time.

Before:


After:




Subs only. Pink: before, Blue: after


Center and subs. Red: before tweak, Green: after tweak, Dark gray: subs only

jkasanic's Avatar jkasanic 08:50 AM 01-22-2014

Looks like nice work Cowboys!  Are you able to overlay the original response curves from when the two subs were both located up front?  I think other members might benefit from those before and after curves as well as your sub distance tweak shown above.


Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 09:07 AM 01-22-2014
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Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 09:13 AM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Looks like nice work Cowboys!  Are you able to overlay the original response curves from when the two subs were both located up front?  I think other members might benefit from those before and after curves as well as your sub distance tweak shown above.
. Thanks. This one:

Pink: two subs only upfront
Blue: one front and one back subs only.
I did not do the subs distance tweak when I had my dual upfront if that what you were asking.
jkasanic's Avatar jkasanic 09:14 AM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Wish I could get the sub tweak to work in my setup :/

 

Are you crossing at 80Hz as well?  Did you already post an overlay of your sub(s) only and center only responses to confirm you current XO setting is optimal for your current speakers and room?


jkasanic's Avatar jkasanic 11:06 AM 01-22-2014

That's a pretty steep drop off in output above 60Hz for the subs. Can you post your individual sub responses and make sure there is no crossover engaged either on the sub or in the AVR (or at least at it's highest setting for both)?  That response appears as though there is a crossover engaged or you're getting some cancellation above 60Hz.  A quick check of your subs implies their output should extend well above 60Hz.

 

I also seem to recall you working on sub placement in the past or having limited options.  Can you confirm if you've already tried different placements?


Brian Fineberg's Avatar Brian Fineberg 11:17 AM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

That's a pretty steep drop off in output above 60Hz for the subs. Can you post your individual sub responses and make sure there is no crossover engaged either on the sub or in the AVR (or at least at it's highest setting for both)?  That response appears as though there is a crossover engaged or you're getting some cancellation above 60Hz.  A quick check of your subs implies their output should extend well above 60Hz.

I also seem to recall you working on sub placement in the past or having limited options.  Can you confirm if you've already tried different placements?
After further review the xover was on 60hz for some reason (I don't think I changed it from what audyssey had) so that would explain the drop

I have zero options for placement. They are what they are until I move into a new house (within 2 years)
jkasanic's Avatar jkasanic 11:29 AM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

That's a pretty steep drop off in output above 60Hz for the subs. Can you post your individual sub responses and make sure there is no crossover engaged either on the sub or in the AVR (or at least at it's highest setting for both)?  That response appears as though there is a crossover engaged or you're getting some cancellation above 60Hz.  A quick check of your subs implies their output should extend well above 60Hz.

I also seem to recall you working on sub placement in the past or having limited options.  Can you confirm if you've already tried different placements?
After further review the xover was on 60hz for some reason (I don't think I changed it from what audyssey had) so that would explain the drop

I have zero options for placement. They are what they are until I move into a new house (within 2 years)

 

Ok, the problem is that you're measurements are shown with the xover engaged so they're not very good for choosing a different one.  You need to take new measurements but this time make sure the xover is raised to it's highest value for the sub (both on the sub and in the AVR) and when you measure your center speaker output change the speaker type from small to large in your AVR to defeat the xover there as well.

 

Since you don't have any other placement options, once we have this info we can experiment with other xover values.  I'm guessing your current issue between 80-100Hz is related to the relatively low xover of 60Hz and once we determine the best crossover, we can see if the distance tweak is required for further optimization at the splice.


Brian Fineberg's Avatar Brian Fineberg 11:31 AM 01-22-2014
Ahhh!! That makes sense. It will have to wait till the weekend though :/ my wife HATES when I take measurements haha and last night was an opportunity. So for now should I go with say a 90hz xover?
jkasanic's Avatar jkasanic 11:37 AM 01-22-2014

If Audyssey reported the F3 to your AVR and the recommended xover was 60Hz then raising it to 90Hz should be fine.  If you won't have your measuring gear out until the weekend, my guess would be this will sound better than your current 60Hz xover until then...but it's only a guess.  I'm sure once you post the new response curves with no xover engaged it will become much more apparent if raising it will improve your overall SQ.


Brian Fineberg's Avatar Brian Fineberg 11:44 AM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

If Audyssey reported the F3 to your AVR and the recommended xover was 60Hz then raising it to 90Hz should be fine.  If you won't have your measuring gear out until the weekend, my guess would be this will sound better than your current 60Hz xover until then...but it's only a guess.  I'm sure once you post the new response curves with no xover engaged it will become much more apparent if raising it will improve your overall SQ.
Thank you! I will report back.

But for now audyssey reported the f3 at 40hz for fronts and 60 for center and 80 for surrounds FYI
Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 12:08 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

yes 80 hz



green is center only
Red is subs only
Black is subs + center
As JK mentioned, something is wrong after 60hz in your set up for your subs. They should not drop tremendously. I already can see a huge improvement once you figure that out along with the subs distances tweak with crossover at 80. You will smile again for sure smile.gif
Brian Fineberg's Avatar Brian Fineberg 12:11 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

As JK mentioned, something is wrong after 60hz in your set up for your subs. They should not drop tremendously. I already can see a huge improvement once you figure that out along with the subs distances tweak with crossover at 80. You will smile again for sure smile.gif
I had the wrong xover engaged. Thus the major drop off

I'll re measure this weekend if I get the chance. But I think I may just watch movies. Haha cause it still sounds phenomenal. I just want to eventually get the graph to back it up smile.gif

EDIT: since I will be measuring sub only with no xover I should be able to measure a few tonight ( it's the high freq stuff she hates and hears upstairs) won't be able to do the distance tweak though.
shpitz's Avatar shpitz 12:20 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

1. Move one sub to right back room corner and leave the other one upfront toward the center of room instead of having both upfront by my main.
...My room now is energized/pressurized with lots of great bass

That's exactly what I've done a few months ago. Had both RW-12d's in the front, had serious nulls, zero pressure. Tried tweaking phase on subs to no avail.

I left one in the front-right, moved the other to the back-left of the room, and BAM! pressure is incredible now.
Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 12:39 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Haha cause it still sounds phenomenal. I just want to eventually get the graph to back it up smile.gif
.
Not trying to say it does not but it does not seem that way based on that steep roll of at 60. You've probably been missing the mid bass slam. Once it's fixed, it will be more than phenomenal smile.gif
Brian Fineberg's Avatar Brian Fineberg 12:45 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Not trying to say it does not but it does not seem that way based on that steep roll of at 60. You've probably been missing the mid bass slam. Once it's fixed, it will be more than phenomenal smile.gif
I don't think your getting what I'm saying. That roll off was with the wrong xover engaged. I always listen to at least 80hz (thx recommended) xover. So that graph is not accurate. Please disregard
jkasanic's Avatar jkasanic 12:48 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
 
EDIT: since I will be measuring sub only with no xover I should be able to measure a few tonight ( it's the high freq stuff she hates and hears upstairs) won't be able to do the distance tweak though.

 

If I were you, I'd take a sweep of the left, right and center with AVR setting them to Large at the same time you do the subs.  This way you'll have all of your baseline measurements for setting the xovers.  Remember, you're doing the distance tweak based on the center response but you also want to consider what's going on with the L and R.  The distance tweak will impact all 3 responses so picking the xover for each interaction is important as you can only set one sub distance.  Just give her a pair of headphones for a few minutes! :p


Brian Fineberg's Avatar Brian Fineberg 12:50 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Not trying to say it does not but it does not seem that way based on that steep roll of at 60. You've probably been missing the mid bass slam. Once it's fixed, it will be more than phenomenal smile.gif
I don't think your getting what I'm saying. That roll off was with the wrong xover engaged. I always listen to at least 80hz (thx recommended) xover. So that graph is not accurate. Please disregard

As you can see my full frequency sweep is in fact pretty darn good haha:
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 12:50 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post


. Thanks. This one:

Pink: two subs only upfront
Blue: one front and one back subs only.
I did not do the subs distance tweak when I had my dual upfront if that what you were asking.

 

Nice job, Cowboys.  Now if the real Cowboys could do a nice job as well, everyone would be happy.;)


jkasanic's Avatar jkasanic 12:52 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Not trying to say it does not but it does not seem that way based on that steep roll of at 60. You've probably been missing the mid bass slam. Once it's fixed, it will be more than phenomenal smile.gif
I don't think your getting what I'm saying. That roll off was with the wrong xover engaged. I always listen to at least 80hz (thx recommended) xover. So that graph is not accurate. Please disregard

 

And I'm not sure you're getting what I'm saying!  The fact that a crossover was engaged at all makes those graphs worthless for what you're trying to accomplish! ;)  You also need to measure your mains again with the AVR set to Large (and subwoofers off) to get their FULL range response.  Only armed with the measurements I described previously can you more accurately set your xovers.


cfraser's Avatar cfraser 12:52 PM 01-22-2014
I see that many of the "recent" graphs for the sub distance tweak are clearly not showing the measurement graphs Keith used in his document, and the people are not measuring exactly what he said to measure. Are those better ways that I should try...comments? The principles and methodology Keith used seem "sound" to me, for a reasonable amount of work, for what we are trying to accomplish.

Also, if you wouldn't mind looking at my graph (a la Keith) in post #8119 on page 271, do you think it looks like I could expect much from the tweak? I don't see an obvious XO issue, like a big dip in the 80Hz area like in some of the examples where people got an improvement with the tweak. So I shouldn't expect much? Thanks.
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 12:52 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post


I don't think your getting what I'm saying. That roll off was with the wrong xover engaged. I always listen to at least 80hz (thx recommended) xover. So that graph is not accurate. Please disregard

As you can see my full frequency sweep is in fact pretty darn good haha:

 

This one definitely looks better.  I was confused by your earlier postings, because I thought you had achieved a pretty flat response.  I would go back and nuke those incorrect posts...


Brian Fineberg's Avatar Brian Fineberg 12:55 PM 01-22-2014
Done smile.gif
Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 12:55 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post


I don't think your getting what I'm saying. That roll off was with the wrong xover engaged. I always listen to at least 80hz (thx recommended) xover. So that graph is not accurate. Please disregard

As you can see my full frequency sweep is in fact pretty darn good haha:
Oh, sorry man. My bad, I missed that xover part. Much better graph.
jkasanic's Avatar jkasanic 12:57 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post


I don't think your getting what I'm saying. That roll off was with the wrong xover engaged. I always listen to at least 80hz (thx recommended) xover. So that graph is not accurate. Please disregard

As you can see my full frequency sweep is in fact pretty darn good haha:

 

This one definitely looks better.  I was confused by your earlier postings, because I thought you had achieved a pretty flat response.  I would go back and nuke those incorrect posts...

 

So this response is with the L and R crossing at 80Hz?  Now you've got me confused.  What problem were you trying to solve with the distance tweak?  What does your 10-300Hz combined response look like unsmoothed?  Do you see anything abnormal in the xover region?  I see a 5dB drop in your 1/6 smoothed plot so it would seem there might be some improvement possible.


AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 12:58 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I see that many of the "recent" graphs for the sub distance tweak are clearly not showing the measurement graphs Keith used in his document, and the people are not measuring exactly what he said to measure. Are those better ways that I should try...comments?

Also, if you wouldn't mind looking at my graph (a la Keith) on page 271, do you think it looks like I could expect much from the tweak. I don't see an obvious XO issue, like a big dip in the 80Hz area like in some of the examples where people got an improvement with the tweak. So I shouldn't expect much? Thanks.

 

Not sure what you mean.  If you follow the process, there are some initial measurement screens (e.g. center only, subs only, center+subs), and then there is the final results screen.  While some of the posters have obviously omitted some of the graphs, I don't think we can conclude that they didn't follow the procedure.  And I certainly recommend you read and follow the procedure that Keith has documented in order to produce the best results.

 

And BTW, referring to a page number won't help people find the post you are referring to, because depending on the "number of posts per page" parameter, different people see different page numbers.  Always refer to a post number, or better yet, provide a link.


Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 12:59 PM 01-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Now if the real Cowboys could do a nice job as well, everyone would be happy.wink.gif
I agree but not sure about the 'everyone would be happy' part. There are lots of Cowboys haters out there.
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