Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 286 - AVS Forum
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post #8551 of 11697 Old 02-02-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by KK in CT View Post

As I'm trying to decide on a laptop purchase for use with REW, I would like to understand this as well. Is this in reference to USB 3.0?

KK - another option to consider, and one that I have successfully used is to look at used Netbooks on Ebay that have HDMI & Windows capability. Other than a smaller screen, I don't think you'll find any limitations as far as REW goes, and the savings may be significant.
Examples: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acer-One-Windows-8-Netbook-AO756-2840-/271387424961?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item3f2ff378c1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acer-Aspire-One-A0725-Netbook-2-GB-AMD-C-60-320GB-Hard-Drive-Windows-7-FREE-SHIP-/121264041679?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item1c3be66ecf

 

Screen might be a bit small for reviewing the graphs. But what I do is copy the .mdat to my main desktop machine for everything other than the measuring phase, so the laptop screen isn't an issue then.



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post #8552 of 11697 Old 02-02-2014, 07:35 AM
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Since they have an HDMI output, they could be connected to a 1080p TV (through the AVR or pre/pro), which should give quite adequate resolution. Whether or not that actually works, though, depends on the graphics hardware and drivers supporting a resolution higher than the builtin display.

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post #8553 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 11:30 AM
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For those wondering why your ETC results look different from time to time even when you have been careful not to move anything, I have found one attributing reason: Your room temperature distribution.

I was doing some 1K sliced tests and I noticed it change by -2.5db when the heater came on. Curiously, it also changed by -.05ms. I waited for it to turn off and just kept watching the results in real time (Omnimic). Within minutes, the peak I was looking at slowly rose in amplitude and increased in timing until after about 5 minutes, it was back where it had started.

In my new book (new to me), "Sound System Engineering" by Don and Carolyn Davis, on page 54 (4th edition, 1978), it illustrates that sound traveling through air changes its vertical trajectory depending on whether the warm air is towards the higher part of the room and the cooler lower, or the opposite. As it turns out, when the warmer air is below, the sound tends to drift upwards, whereas when the cooler air is below, it tilts downward.

While I knew temperature was a factor, never thought it would make a 2.5db difference!!!!
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post #8554 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

For those wondering why your ETC results look different from time to time even when you have been careful not to move anything, I have found one attributing reason: Your room temperature distribution.

I was doing some 1K sliced tests and I noticed it change by -2.5db when the heater came on. Curiously, it also changed by -.05ms. I waited for it to turn off and just kept watching the results in real time (Omnimic). Within minutes, the peak I was looking at slowly rose in amplitude and increased in timing until after about 5 minutes, it was back where it had started.

In my new book (new to me), "Sound System Engineering" by Don and Carolyn Davis, on page 54 (4th edition, 1978), it illustrates that sound traveling through air changes its vertical trajectory depending on whether the warm air is towards the higher part of the room and the cooler lower, or the opposite. As it turns out, when the warmer air is below, the sound tends to drift upwards, whereas when the cooler air is below, it tilts downward.

While I knew temperature was a factor, never thought it would make a 2.5db difference!!!!

Oh great - I never thought of that one. Imagine what that means doing measurements in Chicago in the winter. Although I do think Igor mentioned it at least once.

I wonder how true that is for frequency response plots. Maybe we should be embracing pre-outs as the standard for critical measuring, as that's (hopefully) temperature neutral. Unless the variation influences the mic's tolerances. That makes my head hurt...

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post #8555 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 12:16 PM
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Oh great - I never thought of that one. Imagine what that means doing measurements in Chicago in the winter. Although I do think Igor mentioned it at least once.

I wonder how true that is for frequency response plots. Maybe we should be embracing pre-outs as the standard for critical measuring, as that's (hopefully) temperature neutral. Unless the variation influences the mic's tolerances. That makes my head hurt...

If room temperature distribution effects how the sound moves through the air, then by the time the mic sees the wave, the change has already occurred. So all measurements would be affected. I will add that in the case I depicted, I was looking at my terminator which equates to a total flight path of 35 feet. FR, which is mostly concerned with soundwaves primarily occurring between the speaker and LP is 7-12 feet in most rooms. A considerably shorter distance and therefore should be less affected.

Of course, reflections in the 50-200ms would be even more affected. A 2.5db change at 1K on a 35 foot flight path might translate to a 5db difference at 70ms. Haven't tested this, but it seems logical that longer flight paths would be more affected. We also don't know how frequency dependent this result is. We also don't know if ones room has even temperature distribution. The waves could be falling in one part of the room and rising in another.

This is sketchy, but I was also looking at 500hz slices and they seemed somewhat less affected than the 1K slices were.

Even though this throws still another annoying variable into things, its better than thinking Gremlins are moving things around when your not looking biggrin.gif

Edit: The db and ms changes were taken at a glance here. The real values turned out to be 1.6db and 0.11ms @ 24ms.


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post #8556 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 12:42 PM
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I tried again to find this out by reading the FAQ and searching but I am so confused.  If this is the WRONG THREAD please let me know.

 

I purchased the UMM USB Mic, using HDMI out laptop of course with REW.

 

I have the calibration file loaded...but then it wants me to try and match input to output something and I am totally stuck.  Does anyone know how we calibrate the UMM mic (part express cal files of course are downloaded, etc.)

 



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post #8557 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

For those wondering why your ETC results look different from time to time even when you have been careful not to move anything, I have found one attributing reason: Your room temperature distribution.

I was doing some 1K sliced tests and I noticed it change by -2.5db when the heater came on. Curiously, it also changed by -.05ms. I waited for it to turn off and just kept watching the results in real time (Omnimic). Within minutes, the peak I was looking at slowly rose in amplitude and increased in timing until after about 5 minutes, it was back where it had started.

In my new book (new to me), "Sound System Engineering" by Don and Carolyn Davis, on page 54 (4th edition, 1978), it illustrates that sound traveling through air changes its vertical trajectory depending on whether the warm air is towards the higher part of the room and the cooler lower, or the opposite. As it turns out, when the warmer air is below, the sound tends to drift upwards, whereas when the cooler air is below, it tilts downward.

While I knew temperature was a factor, never thought it would make a 2.5db difference!!!!

Does it sound different when the heater is on?

Jeff


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post #8558 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post

I tried again to find this out by reading the FAQ and searching but I am so confused.  If this is the WRONG THREAD please let me know.

I purchased the UMM USB Mic, using HDMI out laptop of course with REW.

I have the calibration file loaded...but then it wants me to try and match input to output something and I am totally stuck.  Does anyone know how we calibrate the UMM mic (part express cal files of course are downloaded, etc.)



Have you read AustinJerry's guide, linked to his signature. I'd start there, at post #275. Your questions will be answered in detail in the Guide, linked in that post:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/270#post_22823228

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post #8559 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 01:00 PM
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Nope...must have gotten lost - I will download and then review.

 

Thanks,



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post #8560 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Does it sound different when the heater is on?

Jeff

Well, the room is noisier. I am afraid that this element alone masks all the other differences.


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post #8561 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 02:35 PM
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I was doing some 1K sliced tests and I noticed it change by -2.5db when the heater came on.

Care to elaborate what "1K sliced tests" you did? Graphs?

Markus

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post #8562 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 02:55 PM
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As it turns out, when the warmer air is below, the sound tends to drift upwards, whereas when the cooler air is below, it tilts downward.

I am not sure I signed up for my acoustics to be behaving like the bullets in Wanted. eek.gif
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post #8563 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 03:02 PM
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Wow, I can't believe it... I am finally caught up in this thread - thank you snow day.. I wont post any measurements yet because it is painfully evident that I have got my work cut out to just get a proper graph.. I purchased my UMIK-1 some time ago (around May 2013) after all the hullabaloo over at HTS about their calibration file problems and that they were sorted out.. anywho, I also went and got a Behringer FBD (DSP1124) from a fellow AVSer to be able to tame my old Cerwin Vega passive sub that I was going to drive with an old dj amp I had laying around (Sansui)..

I know my gear isn't up to snuff with a lot of folks around here.. but after years of not enjoying my favorite hobby ( home theater & electronics in general) I just had to take my old toys out of storage and buy some new ones (obviously wink.gif).. living in a row home was one of my biggest fears when it came to hooking up the sub (7+ years), but when I started reading about REW over a year ago and all its helpful tools I was encouraged that I could control the boomyness (word?) and thus enjoy 5.1 again..

For now, thanks to all the contributors of this thread - I have already taken in so much.. although I do have to do my homework on ETC & Trinnov (sp.) and a myriad of other terminology - acronyms & such.. the recent discussion on noise floor/level is also quite intriguing - whenever I'm able to get some alone time with my living room ( hard with a 5 year old.. lol) I will explore a lot of techniques & best practices discussed here.

As is customary, here are my two introductory newb questions to the thread.. I'm quite embarrassed to ask one of them... but here goes any way;

1. Although I've been into home theater for ~20 years.. I've always adjusted/imputed distances in my receivers according to screen distance to speakers.. after reading through the majority of this thread I have come to the realization that I may have had this wrong ALL these years.. am I correct to assume now that the distances are in reference to the MLP (main listening position)?? My current receiver does not have Audyssey (just putting it out there) - it's a Sony STR-DN2010 and its equipped with (I believe) something called DCACC, I ran it once when I first got it ~2 years ago.. but things have been moved around since.. and its due for an update, along with new filters for the FBD...

2. I need to get a longer miniUSB cable for my UMIK-1 - I remember reading somewhere (HTS I believe) that 15 feet is the max. recommended?? Sorry if this one is in the guide, I just printed and saved a copy of the new version..

Any help would be greatly appreciated, and I am happy to have ventured into the rabbit hole... smile.gif

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post #8564 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Care to elaborate what "1K sliced tests" you did? Graphs?

This time. I was more scientific about it. Firstly, I waited until the heater had shut completely off before taking the first measurement (red). Then took the second one 12 minutes later (green)



The deviation is actually 1.6db. The timing is 0.11ms (this time I hovered the cursor over the graph peak to get more exact figures)

Looking more closely this time, the deviation in time does indeed become larger at you look at later and later peaks.


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post #8565 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 04:31 PM
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Welcome aboard! It's going to be quite a ride. I think patience is the most important aspect of dealing with acoustics. That, and lots of research. It's a very complex subject.

You might want to pick up copies of the books that jim19611961 mentioned a little while ago.
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I was encouraged that I could control the boomyness (word?) and thus enjoy 5.1 again..

For boomyness there are active elements and passive elements used to control it. The active elements would be things like the DCACC you mention and your FBD. Passive would be absorbers and diffusers. Another thread you might want to read up on is the Acoustics Treatments Master Thread. I wouldn't read the whole ten years worth because thoughts on how to treat a room have evolved over that time.
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As is customary, here are my two introductory newb questions to the thread.. I'm quite embarrassed to ask one of them... but here goes any way;

1. ...am I correct to assume now that the distances are in reference to the MLP (main listening position)??
The distances are so that the sound reaches your ears at the right time. So, yes, listening position AKA where your ears are .
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My current receiver does not have Audyssey (just putting it out there) - it's a Sony STR-DN2010 and its equipped with (I believe) something called DCACC, I ran it once when I first got it ~2 years ago.. but things have been moved around since.. and its due for an update, along with new filters for the FBD...

REW can be used to generate the filters for your DSP1124. For that reason I wouldn't bother with what's on the Sony.
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post #8566 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 05:12 PM
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Thanks for the response artur9, I did notice the earlier mentions of the book by Mr. Toole ( I looked it up on Amazon & may invest in a copy).. As far as treatments, I am fairly limited at this time because my current set up is in our living room so there is a WAF to be accounted for.. I have already MIDI'd some filters over to my FBD but like I said, there was whole lot I didn't know about at that time.. so, I need to run some proper (per best practices) sweeps & report back..
For the record.. I still can't believe I've been entering the wrong speaker distances ( so ashamed) frown.gif

dRwOOD S4

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post #8567 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 06:02 PM
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Help....

Awhile back I tried to set up REW on a non-HDMI laptop and was getting hum from the internal fan on the laptop. I gave up on it till I got a HDMI laptop.....well now I have a HDMI laptop.

I have gone through all the steps up to the point where you select your input device. I have a U-MIK and it doesn't show up under the drop menu.

When I first fired up REW it asked me if I wanted to use the U-MIK as my mic. I clicked "NO" figuring I could change it later. Well I can't, I tried going under the recording device setup disabling, then renabling it but it still does not show up under the input device drop down.

Any suggestions?

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post #8568 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

Help....

Awhile back I tried to set up REW on a non-HDMI laptop and was getting hum from the internal fan on the laptop. I gave up on it till I got a HDMI laptop.....well now I have a HDMI laptop.

I have gone through all the steps up to the point where you select your input device. I have a U-MIK and it doesn't show up under the drop menu.

When I first fired up REW it asked me if I wanted to use the U-MIK as my mic. I clicked "NO" figuring I could change it later. Well I can't, I tried going under the recording device setup disabling, then renabling it but it still does not show up under the input device drop down.

Any suggestions?

Did u try restarting REW so that it recognizes it once more on start up - this time say yes.. lol

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post #8569 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 06:12 PM
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Yea I tried that multiple times. Tried unplugging the USB cable and starting REW without it plugged in, that didn't work either. Maybe I should uninstall REW and start over.

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post #8570 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 06:58 PM
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Yea I tried that multiple times. Tried unplugging the USB cable and starting REW without it plugged in, that didn't work either. Maybe I should uninstall REW and start over.


I had a problem in not recognizing my mic...did you try the ASIO controls (if you installed that) our default mic might not by your usb mic but rather the internal mic.



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post #8571 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post


I had a problem in not recognizing my mic...did you try the ASIO controls (if you installed that) our default mic might not by your usb mic but rather the internal mic.

I did install ASIO bit did not go into the settings. Going into ASIO was the step after setting up my input device. I'm completely new to this kinda stuff and I was just following the guide. No biggie, I uninstalled it and reinstalled it. I'll give it a go tomorrow again.

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post #8572 of 11697 Old 02-03-2014, 10:47 PM
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I was to anxious to wait until tomorrow. When REW first started it still did not ask me if I wanted to use the UMIK, and it still did not show up in the input drop down. I thought I would try the USB stick that came from CSL, and by putting that in it showed up in the drop down. So that's good but I didn't get to much further though because now HDMI is not showing up in the out put drop down! WTF it worked the first time I started REW. Now it just says something like "not connected 1 or 2". I checked everything under the device set up. I am getting picture on to my tv, and if I test under device setup I get audio. Also under ASIO I can see it but it says "idle"

Am I missing something obvious, or is it being finicky?

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post #8573 of 11697 Old 02-04-2014, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

This time. I was more scientific about it. Firstly, I waited until the heater had shut completely off before taking the first measurement (red). Then took the second one 12 minutes later (green)

Did you also compare measurements that were made only seconds apart? Might just be within normal measurement uncertainty.

Markus

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post #8574 of 11697 Old 02-04-2014, 04:12 AM
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For those wondering why your ETC results look different from time to time even when you have been careful not to move anything, I have found one attributing reason: Your room temperature distribution.

I was doing some 1K sliced tests and I noticed it change by -2.5db when the heater came on. Curiously, it also changed by -.05ms. I waited for it to turn off and just kept watching the results in real time (Omnimic). Within minutes, the peak I was looking at slowly rose in amplitude and increased in timing until after about 5 minutes, it was back where it had started.

In my new book (new to me), "Sound System Engineering" by Don and Carolyn Davis, on page 54 (4th edition, 1978), it illustrates that sound traveling through air changes its vertical trajectory depending on whether the warm air is towards the higher part of the room and the cooler lower, or the opposite. As it turns out, when the warmer air is below, the sound tends to drift upwards, whereas when the cooler air is below, it tilts downward.

While I knew temperature was a factor, never thought it would make a 2.5db difference!!!!

Does it sound different when the heater is on?

Jeff

 

Of course it does. it is a much warmer sound.



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post #8575 of 11697 Old 02-04-2014, 04:59 AM
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I was to anxious to wait until tomorrow. When REW first started it still did not ask me if I wanted to use the UMIK, and it still did not show up in the input drop down. I thought I would try the USB stick that came from CSL, and by putting that in it showed up in the drop down. So that's good but I didn't get to much further though because now HDMI is not showing up in the out put drop down! WTF it worked the first time I started REW. Now it just says something like "not connected 1 or 2". I checked everything under the device set up. I am getting picture on to my tv, and if I test under device setup I get audio. Also under ASIO I can see it but it says "idle"

Am I missing something obvious, or is it being finicky?

That sucks.. unfortunately I'm out of ideas because I am only using the 3.5mm audio out w/ Java - HDMi out is foreign to me at this point until I get another laptop. Hopefully someone else has experience with your dilemma.. it must have something to do w/ ASIO4ALL.. jmo

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post #8576 of 11697 Old 02-04-2014, 05:00 AM
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I was to anxious to wait until tomorrow. When REW first started it still did not ask me if I wanted to use the UMIK, and it still did not show up in the input drop down. I thought I would try the USB stick that came from CSL, and by putting that in it showed up in the drop down. So that's good but I didn't get to much further though because now HDMI is not showing up in the out put drop down! WTF it worked the first time I started REW. Now it just says something like "not connected 1 or 2". I checked everything under the device set up. I am getting picture on to my tv, and if I test under device setup I get audio. Also under ASIO I can see it but it says "idle"

Am I missing something obvious, or is it being finicky?

can you post a screen shot of the preferences screen...might help out.



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post #8577 of 11697 Old 02-04-2014, 06:33 AM
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Did you also compare measurements that were made only seconds apart? Might just be within normal measurement uncertainty.

For the 12 minutes in question, I watched it gradually move from the Red curve to the Green one in real time. I let the sine sweep run the entire duration.

The two graphs I posted were merely the ones I saved.


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Rega - Apollo, Rega - DAC, Goldpoint Passive, (2) Classe CA-100 bridged power amps (350w)

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post #8578 of 11697 Old 02-04-2014, 06:38 AM
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Of course it does. it is a much warmer sound.

Owwww ...


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post #8579 of 11697 Old 02-04-2014, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

I was to anxious to wait until tomorrow. When REW first started it still did not ask me if I wanted to use the UMIK, and it still did not show up in the input drop down. I thought I would try the USB stick that came from CSL, and by putting that in it showed up in the drop down. So that's good but I didn't get to much further though because now HDMI is not showing up in the out put drop down! WTF it worked the first time I started REW. Now it just says something like "not connected 1 or 2". I checked everything under the device set up. I am getting picture on to my tv, and if I test under device setup I get audio. Also under ASIO I can see it but it says "idle"

Am I missing something obvious, or is it being finicky?

First, the OS needs to "see" a USB device before an application can use it. Work on that ... maybe plug it into a different USB connector. Or plug it into a USB on a different computer. If it doesn't show up there, maybe there's a problem with the mic?

Jeff


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post #8580 of 11697 Old 02-04-2014, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

I was to anxious to wait until tomorrow. When REW first started it still did not ask me if I wanted to use the UMIK, and it still did not show up in the input drop down. I thought I would try the USB stick that came from CSL, and by putting that in it showed up in the drop down. So that's good but I didn't get to much further though because now HDMI is not showing up in the out put drop down! WTF it worked the first time I started REW. Now it just says something like "not connected 1 or 2". I checked everything under the device set up. I am getting picture on to my tv, and if I test under device setup I get audio. Also under ASIO I can see it but it says "idle"

Am I missing something obvious, or is it being finicky?

can you post a screen shot of the preferences screen...might help out.

 

Maybe have a look at this post.  I also seem to recall Keith or Jerry posting a procedure every time they run REW with ASIO to make sure all the connections are made properly (i.e. HDMI, ASIO etc.) but I couldn't find it.

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