Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 289 - AVS Forum
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post #8641 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 07:38 AM
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Did you switch off Dynamic EQ? Frequency responses don't look right.

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post #8642 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Did you switch off Dynamic EQ? Frequency responses don't look right.

 

Aw crude...don't think I did....1/2 day of rabbit chasing for nothing.

 

I am gonna read the Guide Again...to make sure I get what/how I need to test, not sure how I missed that...

 

I wish we could make the FAQ a bit easier to follow, but hey I get it all takes time...Let me get back to reading.

 

Thanks for pointing that out!!

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post #8643 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 09:23 AM
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OK, so I reran Audyssey being very careful to make sure the mic is at ear height and followed the 8 positions as per the 818 manual. The response is different. Same crossover, Audyssey movie mode, though I hadn't bumped the sub level up 2-3dB as per the 'old' reading, hence the difference in the <100Hz readings.

There isn't the bump around 1Khz that the old setting showed, but there is a broader bump between 2.5-4Khz on the new setting. I've not had chance to really listen to any music yet as we've been out, but I will check the Queen DVD later. Again the 818 chose a low crossover (60Hz this time verses 70Hz yesterday) but I've reset it to 100Hz as this seems the best response and it makes the comparison more valid.

I also made a measurement with and without my projector screen down. I was surprised to see that it makes a difference giving a slight bump in the level between 40-80Hz as well as a reduction above 10Khz (not so critical for me since my hearing tops out around 13Khz these days).

Of course this means I need to go back and do all my initial Pre Audyssey set up with the screen down and to run Audyssey set up with the screen down as well since projector use is my more critical viewing. At least REW has shown me what a 10' wide thin piece of plastic can do to my room's acoustics. smile.gif

Old and New Audyssey comparisons:




Comparing with my projector screen down and up:


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post #8644 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 09:27 AM
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What do we see? Which speaker? Did you switch off Dynamic EQ for measurements? Where did you place the mic?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #8645 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It isn’t recommended to measure LF and RF together. Measure them individually and individually with subs, but not together. If you think about it, they never play exactly the same content in real life - and if they needed to, it would go to the centre channel anyway. Measuring them together causes interference which reduces the usefulness of the graph.

Its actually RF and LF measured individually just averaged. I'm so new at this I don't even know how to send a sweep though more then one speaker at a time. But yea in the future I'll post only single speaker graphs.

Also, make the upper dB limit of your graph 105dB for consistency with other members' graphs - it will also make your graph look a bit better too!

I was just following the guide where it says to set your top limit just above your highest peak. No biggie I'll change them to be consistent with others graphs.

Also, are you sure your subs weren't running at the same time? You have to select the channels in REW preferences and then physically turn off the subs or bass management will cause them to play along with the mains.

At the moment I don't have any subs. I'm in the process of building a couple LMS-Ultras.

Finally, the minimum recommended level for measuring at is 80dB and preferably higher.

I have the house to myself today, so I can measure at a higher level.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll post some new graphs shortly.

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post #8646 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
What do we see? Which speaker? Did you switch off Dynamic EQ for measurements? Where did you place the mic?

I don't use Dynamic EQ, so it was off in all cases. The measurements were all done at the MPL ear height since I can't run only the speakers or sub, they are all measured using the left/right plus subs.

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post #8647 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:07 AM
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Never measure R and L together for full range graphs. How does L+sub and R+sub look like?

Markus

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post #8648 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Never measure R and L together for full range graphs. How does L+sub and R+sub look like?

I can't not measure them together: Not sure if it's due to my laptop/drivers but I can only output to all speakers. I tried installing the ASIO driver but then couldn't get anything to work. However since I'm currently running a phantom centre and I'm mostly interested in the bass region then bass will tend to be mixed to the centre (ie shared equally between my left/rights and sub) so it should be fairly comparable with real content.

I may try to revisit the ASIO driver issue, but I haven't much time at the moment, so just wanted to try to sort out the Audyssey issue as it sounded worse than previously.

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post #8649 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It isn’t recommended to measure LF and RF together. Measure them individually and individually with subs, but not together. If you think about it, they never play exactly the same content in real life - and if they needed to, it would go to the centre channel anyway. Measuring them together causes interference which reduces the usefulness of the graph.

Its actually RF and LF measured individually just averaged. I'm so new at this I don't even know how to send a sweep though more then one speaker at a time. But yea in the future I'll post only single speaker graphs.

Also, make the upper dB limit of your graph 105dB for consistency with other members' graphs - it will also make your graph look a bit better too!

I was just following the guide where it says to set your top limit just above your highest peak. No biggie I'll change them to be consistent with others graphs.

Also, are you sure your subs weren't running at the same time? You have to select the channels in REW preferences and then physically turn off the subs or bass management will cause them to play along with the mains.

At the moment I don't have any subs. I'm in the process of building a couple LMS-Ultras.

Finally, the minimum recommended level for measuring at is 80dB and preferably higher.

I have the house to myself today, so I can measure at a higher level.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll post some new graphs shortly.

 

The averaging feature in REW isn’t for the purpose you have used it for. Measure L and R separately and show them separately in the same graph for comparison. Ideally their response should be the same - it won’t be though ;)  You need each graph as close to the other as possible to get.

 

Yes, set the graphs any way you like for evaluation, but it makes for consistent comparison if we all use the same parameters.

 

No subs.... hmmm. So what is causing the response you have?  Dynamic EQ is off I assume and all bass settings are where Audyssey put them?  

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post #8650 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The averaging feature in REW isn’t for the purpose you have used it for. Measure L and R separately and show them separately in the same graph for comparison. Ideally their response should be the same - it won’t be though wink.gif  You need each graph as close to the other as possible to get.

Yes, set the graphs any way you like for evaluation, but it makes for consistent comparison if we all use the same parameters.

No subs.... hmmm. So what is causing the response you have?  Dynamic EQ is off I assume and all bass settings are where Audyssey put them?  

Yes dynamic EQ is off, as well as audyssey.

I'm in the process of setting up a Dropbox account and taking some new measurements.

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post #8651 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

However since I'm currently running a phantom centre and I'm mostly interested in the bass region then bass will tend to be mixed to the centre (ie shared equally between my left/rights and sub) so it should be fairly comparable with real content.

Yes, and it doesn't look good.

Markus

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post #8652 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:51 AM
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Yes, and it doesn't look good.

Sorry...have I annoyed you on another thread in the past or something?

I'm working with what I can at the moment and short of physically disconnecting speakers (which I will try when I get time) I can't send a signal to only one speaker at a time. The bit that I'm assuming you're referring to is the 100-400Hz region which is beyond what my sub amp has control over, so the improvements below 100Hz are what I'm currently interested in since I'm trying to set up my two new DIY subs. I don't think the response is too bad at all if you compare what my previous sub looked like in this same (untreated) room:



Verses this:


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post #8653 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The averaging feature in REW isn’t for the purpose you have used it for. Measure L and R separately and show them separately in the same graph for comparison. Ideally their response should be the same - it won’t be though wink.gif  You need each graph as close to the other as possible to get.

Yes, set the graphs any way you like for evaluation, but it makes for consistent comparison if we all use the same parameters.

No subs.... hmmm. So what is causing the response you have?  Dynamic EQ is off I assume and all bass settings are where Audyssey put them?  

Yes dynamic EQ is off, as well as audyssey.

I'm in the process of setting up a Dropbox account and taking some new measurements.

 

Don't add images as attachments - many people won't bother to download them. Use the 'Insert Image' button on the editor toolbar to add them directly to AVS.

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post #8654 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
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Yes, and it doesn't look good.

Sorry...have I annoyed you on another thread in the past or something?

I'm working with what I can at the moment and short of physically disconnecting speakers (which I will try when I get time) I can't send a signal to only one speaker at a time. The bit that I'm assuming you're referring to is the 100-400Hz region which is beyond what my sub amp has control over, so the improvements below 100Hz are what I'm currently interested in since I'm trying to set up my two new DIY subs. I don't think the response is too bad at all if you compare what my previous sub looked like in this same (untreated) room:



Verses this:

 

Don't mind Markus - he can be a bit abrupt sometimes but he knows his stuff and can be very helpful. (I am on his Ignore list so he won’t see me saying this unless someone quotes it) :)  Your response 15Hz-90hz looks pretty good. What XO setting are you using?

 

Markus is absolutely right about measuring R&L together - it doesn't show anything useful so there's no point to it. Try to get the ASIO driver working if you can - it makes life much easier.

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post #8655 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

The bit that I'm assuming you're referring to is the 100-400Hz region which is beyond what my sub amp has control over, so the improvements below 100Hz are what I'm currently interested in since I'm trying to set up my two new DIY subs.

Magnitude <100Hz looks perfect but fundamentals of most instruments and speech is where your graphs show severe problems.

Markus

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post #8656 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 11:08 AM
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Don't add images as attachments - many people won't bother to download them. Use the 'Insert Image' button on the editor toolbar to add them directly to AVS.

I'm only downloading Dropbox in cSe someone wants to look at the actual file and play with it. Everything else will be just uploaded to AVS.

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post #8657 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 12:00 PM
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Thanks Keith, no quotes from me. wink.gif

I'll try to measure with only left or right connected later this week (with and without the sub connected) but I can't access the back of my amp easily (and I've strained my back this weekend, so I'm not going to try lifting it out of the unit it is in). I'd disconnect at the speaker end, but I it's a pain getting them on and off the wall brackets, plus they're still quite heavy for my back. I really haven't the patience to mess about with too many settings/drivers on my laptop as I use it for my video editing which is working perfectly, so I don't want to mess that up, I might give the ASIO drivers one more try, but if not I won't lose sleep over it.

It'll be interesting to see if the >100Hz graphs look any better when measured this way, though in practice a lot of voice/guitar notes could well be mixed to the centre (of a stereo recording) so could mean that you would get matching signals in both left and right speakers at the same time. Of course my ears are a fraction each side of the MLP so perhaps that takes care of this issue?

I'm using a 100Hz crossover in those graphs as it seemed the best response (up to 15-120Hz).

I was really fed up with my new subs earlier this week and was thinking I'd wasted my time and money when I first started measuring with REW, but over this weekend I've been able to at least put that to rest. I feel that the crossover region could be better (though measuring separate channels might show otherwise of course) as the Monolith graph shows the 110Hz area to be better. However the bass is sounding much better than it has before with the single subwoofer.

Since I haven't any control over the higher frequencies I'm not going to get too hung about them, though hopefully the new Audyssey calibration will sound better in this regard (still not been able to listen as the OH has been watching the Winter Olympics rolleyes.gif ). If I go for the Anthem then I'll get the higher frequencies as they come anyway. I can't/won't put up with acoustic panels, etc in my living room, so there's little I can do anyway, but they did sound good previously so I think it was a quirk of the Audyssey set up yesterday.

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post #8658 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 12:38 PM
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I meant to say that I got my UMC-1 mic working with the supplied long cable: Although the blue LED was on, I found that pushing it in a little further (it was very tight) then connected with my laptop. I know someone posted they were having problems getting the UMC-1 to work on their laptop, so I hope that's useful.

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post #8659 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 01:34 PM
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Ok I took some new measurements, these were done with my AVR at -10. Any louder and I get a clip warning on REW?



This is with no audyssey, funny thing is my center and surround speakers have the same 40hz peak? In my AVR I have them crossed at 80. I'll post a link to dropbox

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/qyltbhtdpcgyyjy/No%20subs%20no%20aud%20negitve%2010%20and%20AVR.mdat?dl=1&token_hash=AAHf0XL56_QwLWBBzrboX_mT5fOOcAPjbYD6i3gZhKSQrA

And this is with audyssey.



Auddyssey did knock down the peak at 40 on my mains, but not my center and surround. Agiain I'll post a link to dropbox for this set too.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/zeapfsnf4y4h5wz/No%20subs%20with%20aud%20negitve%2010%20on%20AVR.mdat?dl=1&token_hash=AAEV-rpX2GqMJi0Jfi8QKoD8pefAkzIOmmuuA5lI8V8jGQ

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post #8660 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 01:36 PM
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What is the standard for posting graphs? should I post in large or medium?

Also is that the correct way to post links?

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Something's wrong with these measurements. Check signal routing. Audyssey doesn't create a rising frequency response.
Is the mic exactly placed where your head would be during listening?

Markus

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post #8662 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 02:42 PM
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I have a boom mic stand, and it is placed exactly where my ears would be. Well at least the height, I keep the mic about 6-8 inches off the back couch cushion.

The first graph is with out audyssey, and the second is with audyssey. It looks like audyssey took the peak at 40hz down quite a bit. At least with the mains.

Or did you click my Dropbox link and see how audyssey didn't correct my center or surrounds?

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post #8663 of 11372 Old 02-09-2014, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

I have a boom mic stand, and it is placed exactly where my ears would be. Well at least the height, I keep the mic about 6-8 inches off the back couch cushion.

The first graph is with out audyssey, and the second is with audyssey. It looks like audyssey took the peak at 40hz down quite a bit. At least with the mains.

Or did you click my Dropbox link and see how audyssey didn't correct my center or surrounds?
What Markus is pointing out is that your Audyssey graph is showing a rising frequency response from 300Hz onwards. Something is wrong because you're showing a more than 10db increase from 300Hz to 20kHz. None of us have EVER seen Audyssey do that.

The standard Audyssey curve tries to make the FR pretty much flat from the lowest frequency your system can play flat to, up to 10kHz, and the response curves downward from 10kHz to 20kHz. There's also usually a small dip at 2kHz called the MRC or MidRange Compensation dip.

The other Audyssey curve is the Flat curve, which depending on the implementation, is pretty much as it says, flat. Some implementations still include the MRC, some don't.

We need to figure out why your Audyssey graph looks like that.


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post #8664 of 11372 Old 02-10-2014, 12:07 AM
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I have a boom mic stand, and it is placed exactly where my ears would be. Well at least the height, I keep the mic about 6-8 inches off the back couch cushion.

Place it exactly where you've placed the Audyssey mic for measurement 1.
Quote:
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Or did you click my Dropbox link and see how audyssey didn't correct my center or surrounds?

I'd reset the AVR and rerun Audyssey. This time do only the mandatory 3 Audyssey measurements and keep the Audyssey mic at measurement location 1. Then measure that point with REW.

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post #8665 of 11372 Old 02-10-2014, 04:21 AM
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Just to close this off, I finally got round to having a listen to the Queen DVD again after re running Audyssey. While it seems a bit better than previously, I think I just prefer this disc with Audyssey switched OFF: It just seems to add an edge to the sound that I don't like, though it could be due to this being an older disc and only DTS rather than DTS MA.

What it does mean is that I will try to further improve my manual Pre Audyssey subwoofer/crossover results when I can measure with only one speaker at a time, so I'll be able to have a good bass response without using Audyssey, but without the 'edge' added to music. I think I still like using Audyssey for surround (movie) content because it helps to blend the speakers together and at least when I drop my screen it dampens the higher end a little (not unlike Re-EQ) so perhaps I should just do my Audyssey set up with the screen up and then lower it to act as a treble cut. smile.gif

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post #8666 of 11372 Old 02-10-2014, 04:48 AM
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a more typical audyssey curve...notice the dropoff in the HF

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post #8667 of 11372 Old 02-10-2014, 05:20 AM
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a more typical audyssey curve...notice the dropoff in the HF

No, that's not typical for Audyssey. The high frequency drop is probably the result of interference effects caused by measuring more than one speaker at the same time.

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post #8668 of 11372 Old 02-10-2014, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post


And this is with audyssey.



Auddyssey did knock down the peak at 40 on my mains, but not my center and surround. Agiain I'll post a link to dropbox for this set too.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/zeapfsnf4y4h5wz/No%20subs%20with%20aud%20negitve%2010%20on%20AVR.mdat?dl=1&token_hash=AAEV-rpX2GqMJi0Jfi8QKoD8pefAkzIOmmuuA5lI8V8jGQ

 

The individual plots are nicely similar, but something is wrong. Audyssey can't create that rising frequency response, so something else is causing it. You don't have that rising response with Audyssey off, and Audyssey can’t create it on its own, so something else is. What? is the question.

 

Can you describe your Audyssey mic placements and general technique?

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post #8669 of 11372 Old 02-10-2014, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

a more typical audyssey curve...notice the dropoff in the HF

No, that's not typical for Audyssey. The high frequency drop is probably the result of interference effects caused by measuring more than one speaker at the same time.



That's easy to prove one way or the other. The poster just has to measure the left speaker, the right speaker and both speakers together and overlay them on the chart.
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post #8670 of 11372 Old 02-10-2014, 05:32 AM
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I have a boom mic stand, and it is placed exactly where my ears would be. Well at least the height, I keep the mic about 6-8 inches off the back couch cushion.

The first graph is with out audyssey, and the second is with audyssey. It looks like audyssey took the peak at 40hz down quite a bit. At least with the mains.

Or did you click my Dropbox link and see how audyssey didn't correct my center or surrounds?

 

If Audyssey didn't correct the centre channel at all then something is definitely wrong. For some reason, Audyssey is over-boosting the HF content. That rising response will likely sound dreadful - it is the opposite of what most people prefer and it is definitely the opposite of how Audyssey is intended to work. This isn’t the thread to discuss Audyssey, so you might need to take this to the Official Audyssey Thread and see if anyone there is able to help. 

 

Your first mic position is Ok by the sound of it - where are you putting the mic for the remaining Audyssey measurements?

 

When Audyssey runs for the first position, are all the speakers being chirped correctly?

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