Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 293 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:10 AM
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Blue = 4K
Green = 2K
Orange = 1K
Black = 500hz

This is a unsmoothed overlay of my sliced 1 octave ETC bands. The yellow line represent the threshold of audibility for spaciousness for reflections according to the Haas chart presented earlier. The orange line equals the threshold for image broadening. I think much of our task is presenting the data in the most useful way.

What I am giving thought to is whether I can or want more of the reflection content after 25ms to be in the spacious region.

Keep in mind, there are many mitigating factors to the threshold. Some of them are:

Directionality vs Frequency



Content and Direction



Music vs Speech

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Old 02-13-2014, 12:20 PM
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Jim, what do those charts tell you about your room, or what changes you might want to try?

What treatment(s) in your room is/are producing the ~25ms reflection?

Jeff
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Thanks, Jim. Any further questioning on my part would be OT for the thread's purpose.

Jeff

This is the article I wrote that I think stimulated some / all? of the focus on looking at the band limited ETC: http://www.hifizine.com/2011/12/listening-room-reflections-and-the-energy-time-curve/

The impetus for the article came out of a discussion with Floyd Toole when he reviewed the acoustic measurement standards white paper I wrote

Acoustic Frontiers: design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:26 PM
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Jim, what do those charts tell you about your room, or what changes you might want to try?

The 25ms terminator strength tells me that if I were to make this peak stronger, i am going to get into image broadening (I may be already a bit), which I am not sure I want to do. So if I want a stronger sense of spaciousness in my sound, I am going to have to find a way to elevate the "tail" (those lesser peaks following the terminator). This is my thinking anyway. There may be another way that I havent thought of or been privy to as of yet. Still researching what entails the perception of spaciousness in the first place.


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What treatment(s) in your room is/are producing the ~25ms reflection?

This is illustrated clearly in the "My Room" link in my signature.

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Old 02-13-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

This is the article I wrote that I think stimulated some / all? of the focus on looking at the band limited ETC: http://www.hifizine.com/2011/12/listening-room-reflections-and-the-energy-time-curve/

The impetus for the article came out of a discussion with Floyd Toole when he reviewed the acoustic measurement standards white paper I wrote

Have you extended or added to this subject since that white paper was written? Do you have further thoughts on the subject as it pertains to the spaciousness topic in general? Do you or have you done any analysis regarding the strength and frequency content of reflections wrt timing and direction?

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Old 02-13-2014, 01:35 PM
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Thanks for posting this Jim. Most helpful in further understanding how our graphs (in this case an ETC) correlate back to potential psychoacoustic impact.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:55 PM
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Thanks for posting this Jim. Most helpful in further understanding how our graphs (in this case an ETC) correlate back to potential psychoacoustic impact.

Coalescing measurement data to real world listening has to be the goal. Then sorting out which data is the most relevant is next. Wouldn't it all be so simple if a flat FR was the end of the story?

I keep coming back to reflection spectra analysis because I am hearing the difference when that content is changed.

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Old 02-13-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

The 25ms terminator strength tells me that if I were to make this peak stronger, i am going to get into image broadening (I may be already a bit), which I am not sure I want to do. So if I want a stronger sense of spaciousness in my sound, I am going to have to find a way to elevate the "tail" (those lesser peaks following the terminator). This is my thinking anyway. There may be another way that I havent thought of or been privy to as of yet. Still researching what entails the perception of spaciousness in the first place.
This is illustrated clearly in the "My Room" link in my signature.

Ahh, yes, your billiard hall trick shot. smile.gif I had to read some other posts to find text that tied it together for me. "Directionality also is key, and in my case hitting you from 65-95 degrees laterally is our most sensitive direction."
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:36 PM
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The 25ms terminator strength tells me that if I were to make this peak stronger, i am going to get into image broadening

Would you get broadening if the reflections that make up the kicker are coming from behind you? I typically think of broadening as coming from lateral reflections from the 45°-60° vector. Would "spaciousness" be a better description?

Jeff
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:42 PM
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Would you get broadening if the reflections that make up the kicker are coming from behind you? I typically think of broadening as coming from lateral reflections from the 45°-60° vector. Would "spaciousness" be a better description?

Jeff

From what I have read, you want to minimize reflections from behind given psycho-acoustically, the brain can confuse them with those arriving from in front of you.

Whether a lateral reflection produces spaciousness or broadening seems to depend on its strength, timing and perhaps frequency content. My "kicker" arrives from 120 degrees, where 180 is directly behind, and 0 is directly forward. Lateral, as I understand it encompasses everything from 60-120 degrees. I have read in several papers that 110-120 degrees is the ideal direction for the terminator to arrive from. Not coincidentally, the same angle where rear surround speakers for HT are most commonly recommended to be placed.

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Old 02-13-2014, 03:48 PM
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I have read in several papers that 110-120 degrees is the ideal direction for the terminator to arrive from. Not coincidentally, the same angle where rear surround speakers for HT are most commonly recommended to be placed.

Good point.

Jeff
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Old 02-14-2014, 03:33 PM
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L+R

For all you multiple sub advocates, you finally lured me in.

Red = before
Blue = with addl sub

smile.gif

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Old 02-14-2014, 03:46 PM
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L+R

For all you multiple sub advocates, you finally lured me in.

Red = before
Blue = with addl sub

smile.gif

 

What was your objective with dual subs, Jim?  You didn't seem to need it to smooth the response at all, and AFAIK you are only interested in optimising one seat, so what induced you to buy an additional sub? I am guessing it wasn't a 1dB difference in the overall response...

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Old 02-14-2014, 03:52 PM
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What was your objective with dual subs, Jim?  You didn't seem to need it to smooth the response at all, and AFAIK you are only interested in optimising one seat, so what induced you to buy an additional sub? I am guessing it wasn't a 1dB difference in the overall response...

I already had the 2nd sub.

Yes, I did it for further smoothing smile.gif

Its a 1.4db difference actually biggrin.gif

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Old 02-14-2014, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What was your objective with dual subs, Jim?  You didn't seem to need it to smooth the response at all, and AFAIK you are only interested in optimising one seat, so what induced you to buy an additional sub? I am guessing it wasn't a 1dB difference in the overall response...

I already had the 2nd sub.

Yes, I did it for further smoothing smile.gif

Its a 1.4db difference actually biggrin.gif

 

Do you think the 1.4dB improvement is audible?  What do the waterfalls/spectrograms look like before and after the second sub?

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Old 02-14-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What was your objective with dual subs, Jim?  You didn't seem to need it to smooth the response at all, and AFAIK you are only interested in optimising one seat, so what induced you to buy an additional sub? I am guessing it wasn't a 1dB difference in the overall response...

I already had the 2nd sub.

Yes, I did it for further smoothing smile.gif

Its a 1.4db difference actually biggrin.gif



How much did you gain in dBspl by going from one to two subwoofers? 3 dBspl? 6 dBspl? Somewhere in between?

I realize that you adjust the subwoofer trims to get back to the same calibration level as one subwoofer. I was just wondering how much headroom you gained going from one sub to two.
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Old 02-14-2014, 04:03 PM
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Do you think the 1.4dB improvement is audible?  What do the waterfalls/spectrograms look like before and after the second sub?

I did a quick decay and its basically the same except my -20db point at 40hz dropped from 160ms to 140ms (which was the only place I was unhappy with it).

I only did this spur of the moment over about an hour. So I don't have all the juicy details.

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Old 02-14-2014, 04:06 PM
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How much did you gain in dBspl by going from one to two subwoofers? 3 dBspl? 6 dBspl? Somewhere in between?

I realize that you adjust the subwoofer trims to get back to the same calibration level as one subwoofer. I was just wondering how much headroom you gained going from one sub to two.

The second sub is only a single ported 10". I would say the DBspl max isnt significantly different (maybe 1db at 50hz). I didn't do it for that reason. Mostly, I had it laying around, I thought id try to fill in a minor dip in the 40-65hz range, which it did.

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Old 02-14-2014, 04:14 PM
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For all you multiple sub advocates, you finally lured me in.

smile.gif

Way to go! Multiple subs are the single biggest improvement I've been able to make. Some say the only improvement I've been able to make eek.gif
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Old 02-14-2014, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
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Do you think the 1.4dB improvement is audible?  What do the waterfalls/spectrograms look like before and after the second sub?

I did a quick decay and its basically the same except my -20db point at 40hz dropped from 160ms to 140ms (which was the only place I was unhappy with it).

I only did this spur of the moment over about an hour. So I don't have all the juicy details.

 

Only you, Jim, would go so deep into the rabbit hole for the sake of 1.4dB :)  I admire your dedication to the cause though...

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Old 02-15-2014, 12:38 AM
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L+R

For all you multiple sub advocates, you finally lured me in.

Red = before
Blue = with addl sub

smile.gif

How do other locations within the listening area look like? Is that graph smoothed?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:40 AM
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I'm a big fan of using two subs in a more difficult room, but then I had a bit more of an issue to deal with at my MLP. I've also changed from a commercial 12" ported subwoofer to a pair of DIY 15" sealed subs, but IMHO a lot of the response improvement is down to location(s) of the sub.

It took a lot of experimenting with REW room sim to see if two subs would be worthwhile within my room limitations (it's not a dedicated room, so some furniture that can't be moved). However, since my recent measuring efforts and tweaking of distances and EQ I've been enjoying listening so much I haven't had UMC-1 out of it's box. eek.gif


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Old 02-15-2014, 10:02 AM
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Only you, Jim, would go so deep into the rabbit hole for the sake of 1.4dB smile.gif  I admire your dedication to the cause though...

I am pretty sure your not telling me you would leave a second sub in a closet rather than get a small benefit from it, are you? smile.gif

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Old 02-15-2014, 10:35 AM
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Even if a second sub is not used to add needed headroom or to run the system at a higher SPL, the LF is usually reproduced with a certain effortlessness compared to only one sub.
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:53 AM
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Even if a second sub is not used to add needed headroom

Given this is the measurement thread, how would one go about measuring the headroom?
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:09 AM
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Given this is the measurement thread, how would one go about measuring the headroom?

Turn on one sub at a time and take measurements, then take a measurement with both subs on so you could compare the traces?

I think I found that I gained about 4dB when I turn on the second (identical) sub, though my subs aren't equidistant which brings other issues and complications to the '6dB' theoretical headroom gain.

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Old 02-15-2014, 11:10 AM
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I'm a big fan of using two subs in a more difficult room, but then I had a bit more of an issue to deal with at my MLP. I've also changed from a commercial 12" ported subwoofer to a pair of DIY 15" sealed subs, but IMHO a lot of the response improvement is down to location(s) of the sub.

It took a lot of experimenting with REW room sim to see if two subs would be worthwhile within my room limitations (it's not a dedicated room, so some furniture that can't be moved). However, since my recent measuring efforts and tweaking of distances and EQ I've been enjoying listening so much I haven't had UMC-1 out of it's box. eek.gif

 

Impressive difference. Similar  to my own differences between using 1 sub or 2.

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Old 02-15-2014, 11:13 AM
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Only you, Jim, would go so deep into the rabbit hole for the sake of 1.4dB smile.gif  I admire your dedication to the cause though...

I am pretty sure your not telling me you would leave a second sub in a closet rather than get a small benefit from it, are you? smile.gif

 

LOL. No way, Jim. I didn’t realise you already had the other sub when I made my first post on this subject.  Remember you are talking to the guy who is not using his HT at all right now, because of my Submersive amp failure. I'd rather not use the HT at all than use it with just one sub! ;)

 

New HP+ amp master/slave is being shipped to me Monday.... 4000 watts of woofage...

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Old 02-15-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
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Given this is the measurement thread, how would one go about measuring the headroom?

Turn on one sub at a time and take measurements, then take a measurement with both subs on so you could compare the traces?

I think I found that I gained about 4dB when I turn on the second (identical) sub, though my subs aren't equidistant which brings other issues and complications to the '6dB' theoretical headroom gain.

 

My subs are almost equidistant from MLP (one foot of difference) and I got the theoretical extra 6dB.

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Old 02-15-2014, 11:20 AM
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LOL. No way, Jim. I didn’t realise you already had the other sub when I made my first post on this subject.  Remember you are talking to the guy who is not using his HT at all right now, because of my Submersive amp failure. I'd rather not use the HT at all than use it with just one sub! wink.gif

New HP+ amp master/slave is being shipped to me Monday.... 4000 watts of woofage...

Mains = 350w x2
Sub 1 = 250w
Sub 2 = 100w

I think your wattage Rabbit hole is much deeper than mine smile.gif 4000 watts? Do you trip breakers regularly? eek.gif


FYI, all the wattage disparity works out in my case because of efficiency and attenuation differences. Sub 1 is more efficient than my mains. Sub 2 is attenuated compared to Sub 1.

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