Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 298 - AVS Forum
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post #8911 of 10802 Old 02-22-2014, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Parts Express did nothing wrong. It was 100% your error. You are out shipping both ways no matter what.

To do the "right thing", you need to send your microphone to cross spectrum for calibration. Lot's of people have sent their own microphones to Cross Spectrum to be calibrated. That is a simple low cost solution to correct your error!

Well, I wouldn't be so hard on him. IMO, it is boneheaded for Cross Spectrum to link to a competitor's website, especially when they could link to the mic's page on the MANUFACTURER'S web site. I would go so far as to email Herb and ask him if he would give him a "deal" on calibrating the mic. I probably would leave out the word "boneheaded" though. smile.gif

Jeff


Actually it is kind of hard to go from the calibrated microphone page to the amazon store. The Amazon store page shows the standard for the non-calibrated microphone.

Anyhow, the base calibration gives you 0, 45 and 90 degree FR factors.

What value does the higher priced calibration give you with the polar response as far as measurement capability is concerned?


http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
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post #8912 of 10802 Old 02-22-2014, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Actually it is kind of hard to go from the calibrated microphone page to the amazon store. The Amazon store page shows the standard for the non-calibrated microphone.

Anyhow, the base calibration gives you 0, 45 and 90 degree FR factors.

What value does the higher priced calibration give you with the polar response as far as measurement capability is concerned?


http://www.cross-spectrum.com/

It is Parts Express, and they show the "calibrated" UMM-6 in that "A unique serialized calibration file is available for the UMM-6. blah, blah, blah." So you and I wouldn't make that mistake, but it's not difficult at all for me to imagine someone just getting started at this to be too quick on the mouse ..

I am pretty sure that the "free" calibration is only one file and is for 0°. Many (most?) measurements being discussed here are 90° orientation.

Just sayin' smile.gif
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post #8913 of 10802 Old 02-22-2014, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

It is Parts Express, and they show the "calibrated" UMM-6 in that "A unique serialized calibration file is available for the UMM-6. blah, blah, blah." So you and I wouldn't make that mistake, but it's not difficult at all for me to imagine someone just getting started at this to be too quick on the mouse ..

I am pretty sure that the "free" calibration is only one file and is for 0°. Many (most?) measurements being discussed here are 90° orientation.

Just sayin' smile.gif

The mics orientation/cal file angle doesn't matter below 1K. Nearly all the problems I work on are at or below 1K.

Just sayin' smile.gif

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post #8914 of 10802 Old 02-22-2014, 05:11 PM
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Wow...I leave for an afternoon and all kinds of fun... Am I now hearing that even though I messed up and got the wrong Mic... it doesn't really matter in the frequencies we're all trying to fix which is down low

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post #8915 of 10802 Old 02-23-2014, 12:04 AM
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Wow, I have been busy. Only enough time to briefly check in here once in a blue moon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

One thought I have had for some time concerning people with multichannel HT systems is this. Suppose you dialed a 25ms delay into your rear surrounds when playing 2 channel audio content. Would this simulate a terminator? Will it have some of the advantages wrt to acoustic delays? In general, would it sound better?

If anyone is interested, dial it up so that its between -10db and -6db compared to the direct.

I had played with DSP presets previously. Of course, the biggest issue was that they added external ambience, and this was highly subject to input and mood. Occasionally I would find some program material that seemed to work very well with a particular DSP preset. The next day, I would listen again, and wonder what drugs I had been smoking the night before.

After reading this post many weeks ago, it sparked that interest in exploring other options.

I spent some time trying to decide what was the best way to implement this (I would appreciate other options), and decided the only way was with Foobar, and the Channel Mixer plugin. This of course meant that REW is not able to be used to measure the outcome frown.gif

After some time tweaking levels and delay (much easier then moving panels through the room tongue.gif ), without a doubt, the added ambience is very favourable. I seemed to have settled on 24ms of delay (Jim, you appear to be around 24ms also). The volume control in channel mixer works on a linear scale from 0-2.0 with 1.0 being -0dB. And I have the rears set to 0.4. I am not sure of the actual output in dB of the rears. But I certainly preference an output considerably louder that I otherwise thought I would.

The added ambience, that is not room influenced, has appeared to reduce the subjective distortion of the system. In other words, I can comfortably listen to higher SPL levels. There are no localisation issues from the rear speakers (unfiltered ETC -20dB within 0.6ms). The sound stage is still in front of the listener, with the net effect being simply an extension of the sound stage further into the room (front to back) (ambience). Subjectively, I would say that the sound stage is a little wider also.

For anyone following who would like to try the results, in channel mixer I also have "front in rear" set to 0.0, and "rear in front" set to 1.0.

If anyone knows of way to measure the effects in REW, or another way to implement this that can be measured by REW, I am all ears smile.gif

The only negative appears to be an emphasis in my lack of low frequency power. I need more subs!
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post #8916 of 10802 Old 02-23-2014, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Wow, I have been busy. Only enough time to briefly check in here once in a blue moon.
I had played with DSP presets previously. Of course, the biggest issue was that they added external ambience, and this was highly subject to input and mood. Occasionally I would find some program material that seemed to work very well with a particular DSP preset. The next day, I would listen again, and wonder what drugs I had been smoking the night before.

After reading this post many weeks ago, it sparked that interest in exploring other options.

I spent some time trying to decide what was the best way to implement this (I would appreciate other options), and decided the only way was with Foobar, and the Channel Mixer plugin. This of course meant that REW is not able to be used to measure the outcome frown.gif

After some time tweaking levels and delay (much easier then moving panels through the room tongue.gif ), without a doubt, the added ambience is very favourable. I seemed to have settled on 24ms of delay (Jim, you appear to be around 24ms also). The volume control in channel mixer works on a linear scale from 0-2.0 with 1.0 being -0dB. And I have the rears set to 0.4. I am not sure of the actual output in dB of the rears. But I certainly preference an output considerably louder that I otherwise thought I would.

The added ambience, that is not room influenced, has appeared to reduce the subjective distortion of the system. In other words, I can comfortably listen to higher SPL levels. There are no localisation issues from the rear speakers (unfiltered ETC -20dB within 0.6ms). The sound stage is still in front of the listener, with the net effect being simply an extension of the sound stage further into the room (front to back) (ambience). Subjectively, I would say that the sound stage is a little wider also.

For anyone following who would like to try the results, in channel mixer I also have "front in rear" set to 0.0, and "rear in front" set to 1.0.

If anyone knows of way to measure the effects in REW, or another way to implement this that can be measured by REW, I am all ears smile.gif

The only negative appears to be an emphasis in my lack of low frequency power. I need more subs!

You should be able to see clearly the effects of the delayed rear channels in an ETC. This will show the output relative to the mains as well as the actual delay.

Curious that you settled on 24ms when I would guess you could dial in any delay you wanted. Yes, my termination delay is 24.5ms.

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post #8917 of 10802 Old 02-23-2014, 09:22 AM
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I'm controlling delay and level through a plugin for Foobar.
I'm using equalizer APO, but it currently doesn't have delay control, otherwise I would just control everything through that, and I could measure with REW.

It wasn't until after I was satisfied with the setup, that I double checked what your termination was. Yes, I tried varying delays. smile.gif
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post #8918 of 10802 Old 02-23-2014, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

I'm controlling delay and level through a plugin for Foobar.
I'm using equalizer APO, but it currently doesn't have delay control, otherwise I would just control everything through that, and I could measure with REW.

It wasn't until after I was satisfied with the setup, that I double checked what your termination was. Yes, I tried varying delays. smile.gif

When you get time to do the ETC, do share.

Id also be curious to your impressions when the delay was less and more than 24ms.

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post #8919 of 10802 Old 02-23-2014, 07:13 PM
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It seems I get a flatter response across the whole spectrum15-20000 Hz) with Audyssey off vs it being on.

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post #8920 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

When you get time to do the ETC, do share.

Will do smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Id also be curious to your impressions when the delay was less and more than 24ms.

Less delay causes the soundstage to get pulled towards the rears. So instead of just having ambience, it's more like some 3D DSP effect.
More delay causes separation between the soundstage and the ambience. Echo!

Some other points to note.

The is no phase shift from trying to project the soundstage behind the listener. Well, they are no longer detectable by this listener wink.gif
Reference, Australian Crawl: Indisposed. At the begging of the track, there is a plane that flies from right to above to left of the listener. In 2 channel setup (very dead room), the soundstage contracts as the plane flies over. When the plane is to the right, the soundstage contracts (loses it's ambience) on the left, and vice-versa. From what I believe to be phase issues, possibly from my not 100% accurate positioning. Also, there is plenty of ambience (from the plane) in front of the listening position, with very little ambience behind the listening position.

I would class this as a deficiency of the room, but I much prefer to suffer these issues, then have the ambience of the recording masked by the ambience of the listening room.

With the termination set correctly, when the plane is to the right, there is still ambience on the left. The soundstage doesn't get contracted, or probably more accurately, pulled to the right. The sense of space remains the same, and in this space, the plane flies from right, to above, to left of listener. Also, the ambience from the plane is not forward weighted.

The difference from a correctly set termination is really quite remarkable. It's one of those, "why wasn't I doing this earlier" moments. I'm off to pressure the developer of E-APO to add a delay feature, so that I can measure the effects biggrin.gif

If anyone knows of a windows based EQ, with level/delay control that works at a system level, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg (E-APO is free), I would love to hear about it.
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post #8921 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

It seems I get a flatter response across the whole spectrum15-20000 Hz) with Audyssey off vs it being on.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Graphs?

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post #8922 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 05:42 AM
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Been reading through the thread and first couple posts. Considering trying to get equipment to run this. I'll be honest, first few post while informative aren't the most straight forward. To be clear, all one needs is:

1) laptop
2) software
3) usb microphone

How come the UMM-6 is cited so much? What's issue with calibrated v non-calibrated? Is it the cheapest microphone you can buy to setup and run tests?
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post #8923 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman07 View Post

Been reading through the thread and first couple posts. Considering trying to get equipment to run this. I'll be honest, first few post while informative aren't the most straight forward. To be clear, all one needs is:

1) laptop
2) software
3) usb microphone

How come the UMM-6 is cited so much? What's issue with calibrated v non-calibrated? Is it the cheapest microphone you can buy to setup and run tests?

 

First, welcome to the REW thread here at AVS!

 

I would add cables (either HDMI or legacy RCA depending on your laptop) and a boom mic stand to the list as well.

 

There are mainly two different USB mics that are currently being used.  The Dayton UMM-6 and the MiniDSP UMIK-1.  I would recommend getting either one from Cross Spectrum Labs as they perform an "individual" calibration for each mic also in different orientations (particularly the 90 degree orientation pointing towards the ceiling that we typically use to measure in-room response).  ICBW, but I believe the mics from Parts Express or MiniDSP have a "generic" cal file for the 0 degree orientation (pointing towards the speaker) that you can download once you receive your mic and serial number.  I may have left out some details on the differences or the process may have changed since I bought my mic so apologies if anything I've stated is not up to date.

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post #8924 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman07 View Post

How come the UMM-6 is cited so much? What's issue with calibrated v non-calibrated? Is it the cheapest microphone you can buy to setup and run tests?

The UMM-6 is cited often because it's one of the two USB mics that this thread supports, the other being the UMIK. Other mics will work with REW but then you're mostly on your own if you have setup/configuration issues.

You need a calibrated mic because of the "garbage in/garbage out" principle. If the mic is not calibrated you cannot trust the readings it gives you. You might end up trying to address a null in your frequency response that only exists in the microphone. Now, in practice, this is a bit of an exaggeration but for a few dollars more you buy a little piece of mind in this regard.

Ordering the mic from Cross Spectrum Labs guarantees that you get a properly calibrated mic.
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post #8925 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Will do smile.gif
Less delay causes the soundstage to get pulled towards the rears. So instead of just having ambience, it's more like some 3D DSP effect.
More delay causes separation between the soundstage and the ambience. Echo!

Some other points to note.

The is no phase shift from trying to project the soundstage behind the listener. Well, they are no longer detectable by this listener wink.gif
Reference, Australian Crawl: Indisposed. At the begging of the track, there is a plane that flies from right to above to left of the listener. In 2 channel setup (very dead room), the soundstage contracts as the plane flies over. When the plane is to the right, the soundstage contracts (loses it's ambience) on the left, and vice-versa. From what I believe to be phase issues, possibly from my not 100% accurate positioning. Also, there is plenty of ambience (from the plane) in front of the listening position, with very little ambience behind the listening position.

I would class this as a deficiency of the room, but I much prefer to suffer these issues, then have the ambience of the recording masked by the ambience of the listening room.

With the termination set correctly, when the plane is to the right, there is still ambience on the left. The soundstage doesn't get contracted, or probably more accurately, pulled to the right. The sense of space remains the same, and in this space, the plane flies from right, to above, to left of listener. Also, the ambience from the plane is not forward weighted.

The difference from a correctly set termination is really quite remarkable. It's one of those, "why wasn't I doing this earlier" moments. I'm off to pressure the developer of E-APO to add a delay feature, so that I can measure the effects biggrin.gif

If anyone knows of a windows based EQ, with level/delay control that works at a system level, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg (E-APO is free), I would love to hear about it.

Interesting observations. Thanks!

At what angle are your rear speakers located?

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post #8926 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 08:03 AM
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26 degrees behind the listening position (give or take). Which puts them 116 degrees from the center speaker. Just above ear level.

As close as I could get to the Dolby 5.1 specs.
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post #8927 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Graphs?

Sorry, posted this while away from the home computer where they are saved. When I ran Audyssey, it set the crossovers for my JBL L880s ridiculously high, at 150 hz, so I was seeing a huge dropoff in response from about 80-150 hz. I manually changed the crossovers to 80 Hz and re-ran with Audyssey off, and I'm seeing almost a completely flat response from 15-300 Hz with the exception of a null at 60 Hz and 110 Hz. The most confusing part of this I guess, is why the heck is Audyssey setting such a high crossover for these speakers.

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post #8928 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

26 degrees behind the listening position (give or take). Which puts them 116 degrees from the center speaker. Just above ear level.

As close as I could get to the Dolby 5.1 specs.

From everything I have read, 110-120 degrees is ideal. Good job!

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post #8929 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

Sorry, posted this while away from the home computer where they are saved. When I ran Audyssey, it set the crossovers for my JBL L880s ridiculously high, at 150 hz, so I was seeing a huge dropoff in response from about 80-150 hz. I manually changed the crossovers to 80 Hz and re-ran with Audyssey off, and I'm seeing almost a completely flat response from 15-300 Hz with the exception of a null at 60 Hz and 110 Hz. The most confusing part of this I guess, is why the heck is Audyssey setting such a high crossover for these speakers.

It sets 150Hz because the location of your speaker in combination with the mic position results in a -3dB point close to 150Hz. Doesn't sound unusual to me. Take measurements to confirm.

Markus

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post #8930 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

If anyone knows of a windows based EQ, with level/delay control that works at a system level, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg (E-APO is free), I would love to hear about it.


jriver can do this, it has a seriously flexible & easy to use DSP engine. I think you would just;

 

  • set it to output 2 channels in a 5.1 container
  • use the PEQ module to copy the L to the SL and R to the SR 
  • use the PEQ module to add the delays you want

 

To measure in REW (or redirect other non jriver sources through the jriver engine), you can use the wasapi loopback method or asio line in depending on the your hardware. 

 

You can also use jriver's particle & zoneswitch features for (semi) automated A/B comparisons of your different options.

 

 

IIRC it is $50 to buy but has a 2 (or 4?) week fully featured demo version.

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post #8931 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

If anyone knows of a windows based EQ, with level/delay control that works at a system level, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg (E-APO is free), I would love to hear about it.

As of four hours ago, in reply to another question:

"So you will have to wait for the next version of E-APO, which I hope to release soon."

There may be hope after all!


Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #8932 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 09:10 PM
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My first measurements. I have audyssey and my Behringer disabled.

My subs are 2 VTF15 HSU.

Room is less than ideal.

This is a link to my thread showing pictures:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1519423/sound-treatment-advice-for-my-basement-ht-esp-bass-trap-in-corner#post_24398413


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post #8933 of 10802 Old 02-24-2014, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

As of four hours ago, in reply to another question:
"So you will have to wait for the next version of E-APO, which I hope to release soon."
There may be hope after all!

Excellent. I did make it a feature request back in December. Fingers crossed it makes the next release.

@3ll3d00d, thanks for that. I'll take a look if the next version of E-APO doesn't get delay control.
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post #8934 of 10802 Old 02-25-2014, 07:08 AM
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Spent all night trying to get REW to work properly one new laptop. Setup

Toshiba P50 A series with HDMI out running Windows 8.1
Downloaded latest REW and HDMI software
Everything working including test tones. Showing my Marantz AVR for HDMI source
Sound card set at 24, 48000. I an see all Surround Modes and up to 7.1 channels
Soundcard Driver set to ASIO from JAVA.
Dropdown list for output has only speaker 1 or speaker 2. Tones come through computer speaker, not system.

Whats wrong?

7.2 with Thiel Power Points, twin Seaton Submersive F2's in Espresso. Krell Showcase Amp, Marantz Pre-Pro, Richard Grey Power, Control 4 Home Automation, lots of Blue Jean Cables, Oppo 103D, Sony DVD 777 400 Disc Changer and Samsung Plasma 64" 8500 all in a Salamander Synergy 247 in Walnut.
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post #8935 of 10802 Old 02-25-2014, 08:02 AM
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Sounds like you didn't set the HDMI output as the default audio playback device, since you say the laptop speakers play the sound...


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post #8936 of 10802 Old 02-25-2014, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

Sounds like you didn't set the HDMI output as the default audio playback device, since you say the laptop speakers play the sound...


HDMI output is default. For me it show Marantz AVR

7.2 with Thiel Power Points, twin Seaton Submersive F2's in Espresso. Krell Showcase Amp, Marantz Pre-Pro, Richard Grey Power, Control 4 Home Automation, lots of Blue Jean Cables, Oppo 103D, Sony DVD 777 400 Disc Changer and Samsung Plasma 64" 8500 all in a Salamander Synergy 247 in Walnut.
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post #8937 of 10802 Old 02-25-2014, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiorgio View Post

HDMI output is default. For me it show Marantz AVR


What setting are you using on the Marantz. If you are connecting HDMI from laptop to AVR you need to identifywhich of your of your Marantz inputs is receiving the HDMI signal and adjust as necessary - I have a Denon 4311 - I connect to an HDMI port on the front of the receiver that is designated as HDMI 7 in my sytsem

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post #8938 of 10802 Old 02-25-2014, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

What setting are you using on the Marantz. If you are connecting HDMI from laptop to AVR you need to identifywhich of your of your Marantz inputs is receiving the HDMI signal and adjust as necessary - I have a Denon 4311 - I connect to an HDMI port on the front of the receiver that is designated as HDMI 7 in my sytsem

Aux 1 which is showing HDMI front

7.2 with Thiel Power Points, twin Seaton Submersive F2's in Espresso. Krell Showcase Amp, Marantz Pre-Pro, Richard Grey Power, Control 4 Home Automation, lots of Blue Jean Cables, Oppo 103D, Sony DVD 777 400 Disc Changer and Samsung Plasma 64" 8500 all in a Salamander Synergy 247 in Walnut.
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post #8939 of 10802 Old 02-25-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rgiorgio View Post

Aux 1 which is showing HDMI front

OK - are you seeing any video and does REW recognize your USB microphone, if so have you selected the microphone and loaded the appropriate calibration file?

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post #8940 of 10802 Old 02-25-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

OK - are you seeing any video and does REW recognize your USB microphone, if so have you selected the microphone and loaded the appropriate calibration file?

Yes, i see my computer monitor on the tv and my laptop recognizes the USB Mic. I have not loaded a calibration yet.

7.2 with Thiel Power Points, twin Seaton Submersive F2's in Espresso. Krell Showcase Amp, Marantz Pre-Pro, Richard Grey Power, Control 4 Home Automation, lots of Blue Jean Cables, Oppo 103D, Sony DVD 777 400 Disc Changer and Samsung Plasma 64" 8500 all in a Salamander Synergy 247 in Walnut.
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