Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 304 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9091 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 11:34 AM
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You can still use the distance tweak when you have multiple subs being treated as one sub like in your case toofast. Whatever distance setting you have now, take measurements a few feet below that and a few feet above it. When you see the crossover start to smooth out (say between 10-11 feet), then change the unit of adjustment to really zero in on the best distance setting. What your looking for is the smoothest transition over the area of your crossover.
Yeah, that is what I am learning...now I just gotta find the time to figure it all out!

toofast68

I had a similar situation to the one you're describing with your MiniDSP. I used one of these to split the single subwoofer signal after a long run around the room, plugged it into both Input jacks of the MiniDSP, then plugged my subwoofer cables into the Output jacks. You have to be careful you keep which sub is which straight when you're configuring things in the MiniDSP plug-in, but if you do that, it all works OK in my experience.

Darn it, forgot to link neutro's tutorial (here), which I found really helpful when I was setting mine up.

Wow, splendid days!

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post #9092 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 02:40 PM
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Long term I think I gotta rip into the front wall.

Outlaw Audio, for one, sells wireless sub connections. You might want to explore that before starting a demolition.
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post #9093 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 02:47 PM
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Not sure what you're asking about subs and DSP.

I have two questions if you don't mind.

(1) Is the sub distance tweak (in the AVR, correct?) just for addressing crossover integration?
(2) Ignoring other features of the DSP, is the idea to use its delay/distance features to avoid moving subs physically or is the goal something else?
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post #9094 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 02:56 PM
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I tend to agree with your assessment, Markus.  However, in case anyone is interested, I'll post the seat-to-seat variance measurements here so we can compare them to a single-spot measurement.  Can't hurt.

Sure, it's always interesting to see how rooms and specific setups behave.

Markus

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post #9095 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 02:59 PM
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Outlaw Audio, for one, sells wireless sub connections. You might want to explore that before starting a demolition.

I agree that these are an option to consider, but make sure the return policy is clear. I have Hsu ULS-15 subs, which have in-built wireless capabilities. However, due to the complexity of my home wireless network, I have never been able to get the wireless feature working without static interference.
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post #9096 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 03:00 PM
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IME taking multiple measurements around a small area is done to establish the modal variations you can reasonably treat with EQ, in my case this means I drop a filter on the height and length axial modes as those 2 are the strongest and most consistent across the listening area. 

 

AIUI for higher frequencies, you're really aiming to correct the speaker not the room and so I'm not sure multiple measurements are even necessary to do that.

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post #9097 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

(1) Is the sub distance tweak (in the AVR, correct?) just for addressing crossover integration?

(Yes) and yes.
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(2) Ignoring other features of the DSP, is the idea to use its delay/distance features to avoid moving subs physically or is the goal something else?

Delaying a source to another will change the response within the region where the sources overlap. It won't change the response of a single source at the listening position though.
Changing the location of a single source within the room will change its response at the listening position.

Markus

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post #9098 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 03:14 PM
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AIUI for higher frequencies, you're really aiming to correct the speaker not the room and so I'm not sure multiple measurements are even necessary to do that.

We don't have conclusive data what should be corrected at higher frequencies but I'd agree that the direct response seems to be more important than the steady-state response. Frequency dependent windowing might help to equalize speakers in a meaningful way. The better the tracking between speakers the better the imaging.
Other than that very early reflections near the source or near the listener migth affect the perceived direct response at the listening position. Looking at multiple measurements will reveal such issues.

Markus

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post #9099 of 15786 Old 03-17-2014, 05:03 PM
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We don't have conclusive data what should be corrected at higher frequencies but I'd agree that the direct response seems to be more important than the steady-state response. Frequency dependent windowing might help to equalize speakers in a meaningful way. The better the tracking between speakers the better the imaging.
Other than that very early reflections near the source or near the listener migth affect the perceived direct response at the listening position. Looking at multiple measurements will reveal such issues.

This is a very important point (bolded). To your knowledge, is there established criteria for channel deviation (at some given frequency) as far as whats acceptable, good, great, bad, or otherwise? I would think more latitude would given below the transition frequency than above it.

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post #9100 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 12:10 AM
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Personal experience says that a correction that uses frequency dependent windowing (and that corrects excess phase) produces a marked improvement in the stereo image (uncorrected it is clearly pulled to one side).

I don't know of a standard target though, just offering an anecdote on the efficacy of that approach. If there is one then it would have to specify the windowing/smoothing algorithm to apply wouldn't it as otherwise the responses are not going to be comparible in a meaningful way. The software I use calculates the IACC over various time periods to give a summary view on the similarity of the signals which seems an alternative approach to the same problem.
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post #9101 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 12:13 AM
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This is a very important point (bolded). To your knowledge, is there established criteria for channel deviation (at some given frequency) as far as whats acceptable, good, great, bad, or otherwise? I would think more latitude would given below the transition frequency than above it.

I don't know of any established criteria regarding speaker response deviation. An interchannel level different of 0.5dB can shift a phantom image by about 5%, so speakers should match better than that.

I'm not sure if lower frequencies are less important. In stereo level differences at lower frequencies translate to interaural phase differences. This would explain why reducing frequency response deviations between the speakers at lower frequencies improves imaging.

Markus

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post #9102 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 08:12 AM
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Comment on wireless links: Some of them have long delays that may make it harder to integrate. I checked out one a year or two ago, but the buffering to control drop-outs added ~100 ms latency, quite a bit for an AVR to compensate. I just ran the wires so didn't do any more research. There are probably other better (and worse) options.

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post #9103 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 08:36 AM
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Comment on wireless links: Some of them have long delays that may make it harder to integrate. I checked out one a year or two ago, but the buffering to control drop-outs added ~100 ms latency, quite a bit for an AVR to compensate. I just ran the wires so didn't do any more research. There are probably other better (and worse) options.
Don, I used an Audioengine WiFi to sub in my family room setup with no problems. Did have to adjust the Audyssey-determined sub distance by six ms to get smooth xover response, but that's it. Everyone's MMV, I suppose.
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post #9104 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 08:43 AM
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I don't know of any established criteria regarding speaker response deviation. An interchannel level different of 0.5dB can shift a phantom image by about 5%, so speakers should match better than that.

I'm not sure if lower frequencies are less important. In stereo level differences at lower frequencies translate to interaural phase differences. This would explain why reducing frequency response deviations between the speakers at lower frequencies improves imaging.

I was thinking more in terms of when one is measuring at the LP and comparing the the left and right channel traces.





I made this last night and was wondering what if any of the deviations should be a concern. Obviously, their are places that deviate more than 0.5db. In my graph, and in others I see, 3-4db deviations are not uncommon.

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post #9105 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 09:48 AM
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^
I don't think steady-state measurements are a good indicator of how speakers perceptually track. They include all sorts of reflections that may or may not be relevant to imaging.
pepar likes this.

Markus

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Is the smoothed L/R ETC a better way to measure it?  If yes, what does the following measurement say about left/right deviation?

 

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post #9107 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 10:07 AM
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Yes, a (band-limited) ETC provides a better look into it.

Markus

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post #9108 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 11:16 AM
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Comment on wireless links: Some of them have long delays that may make it harder to integrate. I checked out one a year or two ago, but the buffering to control drop-outs added ~100 ms latency, quite a bit for an AVR to compensate. I just ran the wires so didn't do any more research. There are probably other better (and worse) options.
Don, I used an Audioengine WiFi to sub in my family room setup with no problems. Did have to adjust the Audyssey-determined sub distance by six ms to get smooth xover response, but that's it. Everyone's MMV, I suppose.

Thanks good to know. I know folk use them without such issues, chances are the one I tried was a poor choice. Good buffering/error correction, but high latency. Always trades...

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post #9109 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 11:24 AM
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Thanks good to know. I know folk use them without such issues, chances are the one I tried was a poor choice. Good buffering/error correction, but high latency. Always trades...

Is this what we are talking about ?  Or am I lost in threads and being a dumb head :D

 

http://www.rocketfishproducts.com/products/home-theater/RF-WSW312.html

 

I've never used, but something I might need to in the future  :-)

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post #9110 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 11:27 AM
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On the ETCs and FR plots relative to imaging, I think time and FR both impact imaging. This is a very simplistic view, probably wrong or at least full of holes, but I suspect time of arrival (TOA); and,
frequency response (and volume) play a part.

Looking at the ETCs, assuming there is an absolute time reference, you'd want the initial (direct) sound to arrive at the same instant. A couple of years ago I discovered that we (humans) can actually distinguish much finer time differences than I expected, into the microsecond region. Probably not something you'd notice with music and movies, but localization studies were eye-opening (to me). After the initial step, ETC's are complicated by all sorts of reflections close and far so other than a general feeling they should be as well-matched as possible I would not worry too much.

If the frequency response is much different, and I am not sure what "much" is for this relative measure, then instruments will tend to move around as they go up and down the scale, and images can be "blurred" due to different overtones being emphasized in one or the other speaker.

For me, and perhaps nobody else, this supposition implies both time and frequency response is key to accurate, precise, stable imaging. That may be one reason I have always favored a more dead (less reverberant/reflective) room than others who prefer a lot of "ambiance". In my room, the ambiance must come from the recording, and is not (or minimally) altered by what my room does to it.

IMO - Don

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post #9111 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 11:39 AM
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For me, and perhaps nobody else, this supposition implies both time and frequency response is key to accurate, precise, stable imaging. That may be one reason I have always favored a more dead (less reverberant/reflective) room than others who prefer a lot of "ambiance". In my room, the ambiance must come from the recording, and is not (or minimally) altered by what my room does to it.

IMO - Don

 

100% agree and it's good to come across someone with the same goal. I too believe there is all the ambiance I need already baked into the recording. But I only listen to movies in the HT, so obviously multichannel. Different strokes etc...

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post #9112 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 11:54 AM
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Thanks good to know. I know folk use them without such issues, chances are the one I tried was a poor choice. Good buffering/error correction, but high latency. Always trades...
Is this what we are talking about ?  Or am I lost in threads and being a dumb head biggrin.gif

http://www.rocketfishproducts.com/products/home-theater/RF-WSW312.html

I've never used, but something I might need to in the future  :-)

That type of product, yes, though I have not used that particular one, and have done almost zero research on others. The parameter of interest is latency (delay), and that is not spec'd for a lot of these things. It is not a problem if you are using them in another room, but if you are using them in the same room to complete speaker system hook-up you need one with low enough latency that the AVR can compensate "distance" (which now appears longer due to the added time delay through the wireless link).

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post #9113 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 11:55 AM
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That type of product, yes, though I have not used that particular one, and have done almost zero research on others. The parameter of interest is latency (delay), and that is not spec'd for a lot of these things. It is not a problem if you are using them in another room, but if you are using them in the same room to complete speaker system hook-up you need one with low enough latency that the AVR can compensate "distance" (which now appears longer due to the added time delay through the wireless link).

 

Gotcha...but if my learning is doing me any good...looks like the miniDSP should be able to compensate for that distance.

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post #9114 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 11:56 AM
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I don't know. A miniDSP is on my wish list, but I just don't have the play time. Maybe when I retire, or at least get the last kid out of the house. smile.gif

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post #9115 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

On the ETCs and FR plots relative to imaging, I think time and FR both impact imaging. This is a very simplistic view, probably wrong or at least full of holes, but I suspect time of arrival (TOA); and,
frequency response (and volume) play a part.

I think they both count also. But the kind of room interaction you have dictates the weighting I think. In a dead room, the FR is almost entirely representing the direct response (above the transition frequency) given reflections are minimal. In a highly reflection full room, the FR can be noticeably augmented by those reflections making the FR in this case less the case of seeing the direct only or mostly.
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Looking at the ETCs, assuming there is an absolute time reference, you'd want the initial (direct) sound to arrive at the same instant. A couple of years ago I discovered that we (humans) can actually distinguish much finer time differences than I expected, into the microsecond region. Probably not something you'd notice with music and movies, but localization studies were eye-opening (to me). After the initial step, ETC's are complicated by all sorts of reflections close and far so other than a general feeling they should be as well-matched as possible I would not worry too much.

Making sure the direct "wave" from each speaker hits your ears at the same time is imaging 101 IMO, which is why in the past I have emphasized finding the exact timing center at the listening position to make sure it corresponds with the center of your listening chair. How to do this has already been covered.
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

If the frequency response is much different, and I am not sure what "much" is for this relative measure, then instruments will tend to move around as they go up and down the scale, and images can be "blurred" due to different overtones being emphasized in one or the other speaker.

Again, how much this factor is pertinent depends on your room reflection characteristics. In a dead room, The FR is more telling I think.
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

For me, and perhaps nobody else, this supposition implies both time and frequency response is key to accurate, precise, stable imaging. That may be one reason I have always favored a more dead (less reverberant/reflective) room than others who prefer a lot of "ambiance". In my room, the ambiance must come from the recording, and is not (or minimally) altered by what my room does to it.

IMO - Don

One thing you might want to look at Don is band limited ETC's. Many who claim a dead room as a desirable goal really mean its dead from 1K and up. Band limited ETC's probably/may reveal significant reflections below that frequency. This I have emphasized much in the past also.

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^
Yes, a (band-limited) ETC provides a better look into it.

Agree this is another angle to look at. A full range ETC that shows everything below -20db misleads one to assume all your early high gain reflection are under control at all frequencies when in fact they probably are not. And I think you are suggesting this avenue of exploration in that reflections at any frequency which are audible and uneven from channel to channel compromise imaging.

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post #9116 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 12:06 PM
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^^^ Good comments, thank you. I have done very little with ETC's, something I need to do more. Just need more time for toys!

The interactions get complicated, natch, with FR "weighting" impacted through interactions among direct and reflected sounds (interference patterns), and time cues provided by direct sound and early and late reflections. I don't claim to be an acoustics expert; been decades since those grad classes, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night. smile.gif

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post #9117 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 01:01 PM
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This is the kind of analysis/data that Markus (and I too) thinks bring more clarity to the issue.



Left (black) and Right (Red) ETC at 250hz, 1 octave slice, 200us smoothing.





500hz







1K







2K








4K





(the 37ms broad spike isnt really there when your sitting at the LP. Your head blocks that reflection)

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post #9118 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 01:10 PM
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This shows a fullrange (200us smoothed) ETC (red) compared to a band limited 250hz (black) (200us smoothed 1 octave). Just illustrating that a full band ETC doesn't give you a clue to whats happening at specific frequencies.

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post #9119 of 15786 Old 03-18-2014, 01:11 PM
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Clearly there is a difference between the right and left reflections. Question is, is the difference terrible, or really good? IOW, what is the guideline?
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Clearly there is a difference between the right and left reflections. Question is, is the difference terrible, or really good? IOW, what is the guideline?

Since there seems little already researched data on the subject, we are going to have to figure this out ourselves I am afraid. The beginning of this understanding would be for several to post the same data and look at what kind of variances we see from room to room.

If we can agree to 1 octave windows. 200us smoothing. And 250, 500, 1K, 2k and 4k slices/bands. Then we can all be on the same page.

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