Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 310 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9271 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mexxmann View Post

I just ordered a UMIK-1 from cross-spectrum a few days ago, so should be in stock.  For a non-US person (like me), that's probably the main reason to prefer it over UMM-6 since they won't ship those internationally.

Excellent, thank you!
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post #9272 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

with all this talk and issues I am glad I have my mac with rew and my UMM-6. Of course that little attachment in Jerry's guide was perfect timing for when I started.

I'm pretty new to REW. What are the issues you are referring to?
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post #9273 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

I bought a UMIK-1 straight from Mini-DSP in HK, took like 4 days to come in the mail. By far the easiest way to get a calibrated mic. I'm not an engineer but the UMIK-1 seems to work quite nicely with REW, I've had no performance issues with it.

A fellow Australian smile.gif

I wanted to get a mic from CSL as they are apparently more accurately calibrated than those straight from the manufacture - refer to the link below:
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post

Page 3 of Getting Started with REW refers to post 4926 in which Jerry Austin did a comparison between various mics (un-calibrated, manufacturers'calibrated and that from Cross Spectrum Labs) here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/4920#post_23808303
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post #9274 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

So I was messing around a bit today with REW (thanks to Finding Nemo granting me an hour and a half of time smile.gif ). Again, I'm trying to find the "root cause" of Audyssey setting my crossovers so high at 150 Hz.

First plot is just sub (purple), front left set to "large" (red), front right set to 'large" (blue), and front L+ front R set to "large" (green). Now, If I'm interpreting those correctly, which I may very well not be... it seems to me that there should be no reason my crossovers are so high




Next I ran everything with my speakers set back to "small" and did a stepwise increase in crossover, all the below plots are front L+Front R w/ sub. I'm seeing this huge dip in response between 60-70 Hz at low crossovers (80 Hz) which slowly disappears as I raise the crossover towards the 150 Hz Audyssey sets. I have 80 Hz (purple), 90 Hz (black), 100 Hz (pink), 110 Hz (yellow), and 120 Hz (green). Basically, I'm really confused right now smile.gif


Bump smile.gif

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post #9275 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post

A fellow Australian smile.gif

I wanted to get a mic from CSL as they are apparently more accurately calibrated than those straight from the manufacture - refer to the link below:

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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post

Steve, thanks.

I didn't realize it was only the UMM-6 that had stopped being sold internationally.

Probably a moot point now but, despite being more fragile, does the UMM-6 have any advantages over the UMIK-1?

I have both models purchased from CSL with custom calibration files, and they are functionally equivalent. Both have equal support in REW now.
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post #9276 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 06:10 AM
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I'm pretty new to REW. What are the issues you are referring to?

I believe JL is referring to the quirkiness of the beta ASIO drivers, which can take some tinkering to get working properly.
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post #9277 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

^ I often read of people saying stuff like that wrt center speaker above or below display. What I don't get is: How far are you from the screen? How long does light take to travel that far to your eyes? How long does sound take to travel that far to your ears? You can really tell the diff?? Let's say the video is instantaneous. For most people the sound will take 1-2 milliseconds at most (so ballpark that at 10-20' distance). Your eye cannot discern things that happen that fast, they're more like a magnitude slower. And yes, I do sometimes notice lip-sync issues, with the source (BD/DVD) though. I think that, lacking that and gear setup, any otherwise perceived lack of sync is in the mind. Solution: don't look at the speaker. It's really no worse (and often better) than in a real theater.

Anyway, I have had my large/heavy center speaker above and below my display, and on the floor. It is now on a low/custom stand such that it's just barely below the display. It is also angled up a bit more than its feet allow using those fancy Home Depot metal doorstops. smile.gif On the floor was good, but I kept kicking it by accident, and I really had to angle it upwards a lot. Over the display was too scary, I kept worrying about if I bumped it or if it fell or if the shelf broke...it weighs 80lbs IIRC and if it fell it would destroy an irreplaceable display and who knows what else besides itself.

 

The speaker would have to be a really huge distance from the centre of the screen for any issues to become apparent. Toole calls it the 'ventriloquism effect' and it's a good description - our vision takes precedence and we hear the voices of the actors coming from where they are seen to be on the screen. My centre speaker is below my screen but try as hard as I might, I cannot manage to divorce the words coming out of the actor's mouth from where his head is placed on the screen.

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post #9278 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CheYC View Post


So I was messing around a bit today with REW (thanks to Finding Nemo granting me an hour and a half of time smile.gif ). Again, I'm trying to find the "root cause" of Audyssey setting my crossovers so high at 150 Hz.

First plot is just sub (purple), front left set to "large" (red), front right set to 'large" (blue), and front L+ front R set to "large" (green). Now, If I'm interpreting those correctly, which I may very well not be... it seems to me that there should be no reason my crossovers are so high




Next I ran everything with my speakers set back to "small" and did a stepwise increase in crossover, all the below plots are front L+Front R w/ sub. I'm seeing this huge dip in response between 60-70 Hz at low crossovers (80 Hz) which slowly disappears as I raise the crossover towards the 150 Hz Audyssey sets. I have 80 Hz (purple), 90 Hz (black), 100 Hz (pink), 110 Hz (yellow), and 120 Hz (green). Basically, I'm really confused right now smile.gif

 

Quick comment on measuring technique:  I am not convinced that setting the mains to "large" produces a measurement that is valuable.  I suspect you did that just to see if it revealed any insight on the crossover issue.

 

Your listening room exhibits several anomalies in the 50-150Hz range, a fairly significant dip between 50 and 80Hz, and then a broad hump between 80 and 150Hz.  It is quite possible that this uneven response is affecting the crossover determination.  Since Audyssey is trying to determine the F3 value for the speakers, the sharp drop-off starting at 90Hz could be affecting the results.

 

So, you need to do some detective work to try and understand the audio behavior in the room.  I would start by conducting a mode analysis by plugging in your room dimensions into the Room Mode Calculator (http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Pages/Calculators.aspx), and examining your speaker placement WRT the room modes.

 

Then, of course, you need to explore whether you can improve things by relocating your speakers, assuming you have some flexibility.  Ultimately, you want to present Audyssey with the flattest response you can get prior to the calibration.  In the meantime, I would leave the crossovers at the values recommended by the calibration--lowering crossovers is not recommended.

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post #9279 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quick comment on measuring technique:  I am not convinced that setting the mains to "large" produces a measurement that is valuable.  I suspect you did that just to see if it revealed any insight on the crossover issue.

Your listening room exhibits several anomalies in the 50-150Hz range, a fairly significant dip between 50 and 80Hz, and then a broad hump between 80 and 150Hz.  It is quite possible that this uneven response is affecting the crossover determination.  Since Audyssey is trying to determine the F3 value for the speakers, the sharp drop-off starting at 90Hz could be affecting the results.

So, you need to do some detective work to try and understand the audio behavior in the room.  I would start by conducting a mode analysis by plugging in your room dimensions into the Room Mode Calculator (http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Pages/Calculators.aspx), and examining your speaker placement WRT the room modes.

Then, of course, you need to explore whether you can improve things by relocating your speakers, assuming you have some flexibility.  Ultimately, you want to present Audyssey with the flattest response you can get prior to the calibration.  In the meantime, I would leave the crossovers at the values recommended by the calibration--lowering crossovers is not recommended.

Correct.

The dip between 50-80 is pretty much alleviated, although not completely, when the crossover is set to 120 Hz it seems, but it's pretty huge when the xover is set to 80 Hz, so it seems that the placement of my front L/R speakers is probably the culprit. I can't do too much at this point (at least not without pissing off the wife) outside of maybe trying some room treatments. I NEVER thought things would get so complicated and I would get so finicky when I first set all this up, I was like hey, throw some speakers and a projector in the basement and I'm set! Whoops...

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post #9280 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 08:15 AM
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Correct.

The dip between 50-80 is pretty much alleviated, although not completely, when the crossover is set to 120 Hz it seems, but it's pretty huge when the xover is set to 80 Hz, so it seems that the placement of my front L/R speakers is probably the culprit. I can't do too much at this point (at least not without pissing off the wife) outside of maybe trying some room treatments. I NEVER thought things would get so complicated and I would get so finicky when I first set all this up, I was like hey, throw some speakers and a projector in the basement and I'm set! Whoops...

 

Were the measurements taken with Audyssey on or off?  Remember, if you lower a crossover with Audyssey on, you end up with a gap that has no filter correction, which could easily skew the measurements.

 

Ultimately, what is important is whether you find the sound pleasing or not, with the high crossovers.  I stand by my warning not to lower the crossovers manually.  Whether you want to spend a lot of time analyzing and improving the response depends, of course, on how happy you are with its present state.  Those of us who participate in this thread can be a bit obsessive chasing the perfect result.

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post #9281 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 08:24 AM
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Were the measurements taken with Audyssey on or off?  Remember, if you lower a crossover with Audyssey on, you end up with a gap that has no filter correction, which could easily skew the measurements.

Ultimately, what is important is whether you find the sound pleasing or not, with the high crossovers.  I stand by my warning not to lower the crossovers manually.  Whether you want to spend a lot of time analyzing and improving the response depends, of course, on how happy you are with its present state.  Those of us who participate in this thread can be a bit obsessive chasing the perfect result.

All the graphs were run without Audyssey activated. I've left the xover alone after Audyssey set it though, I know lowering is not recommended. Overall, I like the sound in my room for the most part, although I do feel the mid-bass range could be better imo, there's no "punch' if that makes sense, my bass is quite boomy as well, I don't get full decay according to my waterfall graphs until about 800 ms.

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post #9282 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 08:56 AM
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All the graphs were run without Audyssey activated. I've left the xover alone after Audyssey set it though, I know lowering is not recommended. Overall, I like the sound in my room for the most part, although I do feel the mid-bass range could be better imo, there's no "punch' if that makes sense, my bass is quite boomy as well, I don't get full decay according to my waterfall graphs until about 800 ms.

 

You are being tested!  Time to get cracking.... ;)

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post #9283 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 11:50 AM
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my bass is quite boomy as well, I don't get full decay according to my waterfall graphs until about 800 ms.

lol, I'm not sure that even qualifies as "decay." smile.gif
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lol, I'm not sure that even qualifies as "decay." smile.gif

To be fair, MOST of it is gone by 600, there's just a small bit left at around 20 Hz and 50 Hz at 800. My room is completely untreated though, and I don't even know where to start with that.

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post #9285 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 12:26 PM
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To be fair, MOST of it is gone by 600, there's just a small bit left at around 20 Hz and 50 Hz at 800. My room is completely untreated though, and I don't even know where to start with that.

Some of that may be determined by whether you have "free will" or have a significant other who gets a vote ... or worse, a VETO. I would do first reflection points first with either absorbers or diffusors. Real soon after that would be corner bass traps.

My home theater "build" website linked in my sig might give you some ideas.

Jeff
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post #9286 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 12:38 PM
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Some of that may be determined by whether you have "free will" or have a significant other who gets a vote ... or worse, a VETO. I would do first reflection points first with either absorbers or diffusors. Real soon after that would be corner bass traps.

My home theater "build" website linked in my sig might give you some ideas.

Jeff

Thanks.

Finances and the room itself are more of a restraint than the wife, from what I did read, treating the room can get pricey quick. My layout definitely isn't optimal either (I have some pics in my profile), so it's really hard to even know where to start in my room unfortunately

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post #9287 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 12:45 PM
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To be fair, MOST of it is gone by 600, there's just a small bit left at around 20 Hz and 50 Hz at 800. My room is completely untreated though, and I don't even know where to start with that.

The standards that AustinJerry documented in his REW guide, after some discussion last year, are the following:
"Note: According to the previously-mentioned articles by Paul Spencer (and as well as by other experts), all bass resonances should be decayed below the noise floor within 300ms. However, this is a difficult target to reach without significant bass treatments. Complete decay by 450ms is a more typical result, and can sound quite good. Anything above 600ms represents serious bass ringing, and is likely to result in boomy, “one-note” bass, which is not what we want."

In practice, most of us aim for 450 ms, except for the fortunate few with unlimited ability to sculpt their room and apply treatments extensively.

See pp. 65-70 of the REW guide below, or follow the link on Jerry's signature when he posts:
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13964642293817&key=0f4a86ba6db5fdb509f85ecacef1696f&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avsforum.com%2Ft%2F1449924%2Fsimplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs%2F270%23post_22823228&v=1&libId=ee66f432-c761-4c91-8280-33ab61ca77fb&out=https%3A%2F%2Fdl.dropboxusercontent.com%2Fu%2F78476446%2FREW%2520101%2520v3.3.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avsforum.com%2Ft%2F1449924%2Fsimplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs%2F9270&title=Simplified%20REW%20Setup%20and%20Use%20(USB%20Mic%20%26%20HDMI%20Connection)%20Including%20Measurement%20Techniques%20and%20How%20To%20Interpret%20Graphs%20-%20Page%2010&txt=Link%20to%20REW%20101%20v3.3.pdf%20(February%205%2C%202014)

By the way, I can sympathize. I have an L-shaped living/dining room, where the HT area is roughly 24x17, and short of blocking up windows, adding partitions to block off spaces, or adding several inches of pink fluffy in front of my entertainment cabinet (and/or replacing artwork behind the sofa with acoustic panels), there's little I can do physically. However, that's why aiming for dedicated HT rooms is the ideal if possible.

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Thanks.

Finances and the room itself are more of a restraint than the wife, from what I did read, treating the room can get pricey quick. My layout definitely isn't optimal either (I have some pics in my profile), so it's really hard to even know where to start in my room unfortunately

My treatments are 100% DIY. Maybe it shows, but it is fine when the lights are off.

Jeff
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@Stuart: Wow, what is that link???

Believe it or not, that's what I got when I went to the last revision of your Guide and did a "copy shortcut". If you select the entire link, from the http to the final parenthesis, and copy into the URL bar, it takes you directly to the Guide.

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@Stuart: Wow, what is that link???

Believe it or not, that's what I got when I went to the last revision of your Guide and did a "copy shortcut". If you select the entire link, from the http to the final parenthesis, and copy into the URL bar, it takes you directly to the Guide.

 

Something not quite right there then Stuart. This is my Dropbox link to Jerry's Guide:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9653266/REW%20101%20v3.3.pdf

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The big long one works as well.

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The big long one works as well.

Jeff

Not sure why that happened, but there's probably an obscure Internet Explorer setting reason for it.

Bottom line is that they get there.

Edit: I figured out the "why" part. If you do exactly what I said in my post about copy shortcut and then copying to the URL bar, you get the big long link showing up on the URL tab. But if you hover over the PDF you get the short link Keith had, which is what you also see if you edit Jerry's OP with "quote". Or maybe it's IE. Go figure.

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post #9294 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 05:48 PM
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A fellow Australian smile.gif

I wanted to get a mic from CSL as they are apparently more accurately calibrated than those straight from the manufacture - refer to the link below:

Ditto what Jerry said. For home measurement use your not going to run into any probs with using the UMIK-1 or UMM-6 (both calibrated) those kinds or major 'accuracy differences'.

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post #9295 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 05:55 PM
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A fellow Australian smile.gif

I wanted to get a mic from CSL as they are apparently more accurately calibrated than those straight from the manufacture - refer to the link below:

Ditto what Jerry said. For home measurement use your not going to run into any probs with those kinds of 'accuracy differences'.

 

I think Jerry's point was that either the UMM-6 or the UMIK-1, calibrated by CSL, were functionally identical, not that a CSL-calibrated mic and an uncalibrated mic direct from the manufacturer were effectively interchangeable. 

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post #9296 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

Correct.

The dip between 50-80 is pretty much alleviated, although not completely, when the crossover is set to 120 Hz it seems, but it's pretty huge when the xover is set to 80 Hz, so it seems that the placement of my front L/R speakers is probably the culprit. I can't do too much at this point (at least not without pissing off the wife) outside of maybe trying some room treatments. I NEVER thought things would get so complicated and I would get so finicky when I first set all this up, I was like hey, throw some speakers and a projector in the basement and I'm set! Whoops...

Although it's unlikely you'd have a situation like I did that raised Audyssey's crossover even higher, if your front speakers by chance happen to have an built in crossover adjustment or bass compensation controls and they aren't set correctly, that will more than likely trip up Audyssey like it did my case. I thought it was worth suggesting as I spend a good 2 weeks on it only to discover that was the issue as now one had shared any similar experiences here. Totally agree with you about speaker placement too, can be a big prob and a pain to do anything with - was the same in my setup. Worth trying to sort the issue(not referring strictly to placement of course) as the sound can be annoyingly off and start to subtly grate on you after a while, as the flaws become more and more obvious, and even more so if you have really nice speakers.

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post #9297 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think Jerry's point was that either the UMM-6 or the UMIK-1, calibrated by CSL, were functionally identical, not that a CSL-calibrated mic and an uncalibrated mic direct from the manufacturer were effectively interchangeable. 

I've revised my comment to reflect more what I was trying to say. Of course I wasn't about to say I thought an uncalibrated mic would be the same as a calibrated one which goes back to Zzzzz's original point about differences between calibrated versions.
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post #9298 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I believe JL is referring to the quirkiness of the beta ASIO drivers, which can take some tinkering to get working properly.

Zzzzz... I have a mac mini in mt HT setup and a program called sound flower is used which has a setup link in Jerry's guide. I have not had any funky issues ever smile.gif

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post #9299 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

Finances and the room itself are more of a restraint than the wife, from what I did read, treating the room can get pricey quick. My layout definitely isn't optimal either (I have some pics in my profile), so it's really hard to even know where to start in my room unfortunately

It's not so bad. I got 2 yards of fabric from Jo-Ann's, a bundle of Roxul SafeNSound from Lowes, and canvas stretchers from A.C. Moores. The fabric was less than $15, the Roxul was $49 for 8 and the canvas stretchers were, I think, $20. So, amortizing the Roxul, it ends up being $40 per panel. You can even get art fabric from Spoonflower for $25.

The effect on the room, with 5 panels on the back wall, is significant. My decay is mostly below 300ms.

I would start with panels on the back wall to get the decay down as that made the most difference for bass and intelligibility issues.

Check out what people have done with DIY art panels. Just zoom through it looking at the pictures for inspiration.
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post #9300 of 13334 Old 04-02-2014, 08:37 PM
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Ok the time is finally here. I am starting with building the 4 inch thick Roxul AFB panels. My wife and I will make six 24x28x4's, and two custom sizes slimmer than 24. I have heard numerous testimonies of JTR speakers SQ dramatically improving when treatments go up. My plan is to get some behind the speakers and then basically where they will fit on the sidewalls. three 24 inch ones on the left wall. The right wall will get one 24 inch one directly to the right of the speaker then skip a 5ft window and a 18 inch one. Perhaps in the future one on a stand where the window is. The left speaker will get two 24 inch ones behind it while the right can only accommodate one 16 inch one.

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