Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 347 - AVS Forum
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post #10381 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you are just getting started, did you read the Guide? If you had followed the guide recommendations, you would know that for graphs showing bass response:

- The measurements should be 15-300Hz, so we are all looking at similar graphs.

- You should specify what speakers are included in the measurements--is it sub only, sub+mains, etc.

Having said that, your output below 30Hz is not that good. And the severe dip at 100Hz is bad, but we don't know if the curve includes the main speakers or not.
I had taken measurements for 15-200Hz because that is what I read on REW for subwoofer frequency only.
I can do up to 300Hz if that is what is needed.
The measurement I took was for sub only and no mains.
Now I have in ceiling speakers so I am sure the frequency won't be right for the speakers but trying to get a better EQ for sub.
At the same time I have not moved the sub to different areas yet but I will. The sub is a Kreisel dxd 12012 so I know it is capable.
Thank you!
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post #10382 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 12:54 PM
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The best assessment of bass response includes measuring the contributions of the main speakers as well as the subs. The main speakers will contribute above the crossover point, which you have not revealed.

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post #10383 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The best assessment of bass response includes measuring the contributions of the main speakers as well as the subs. The main speakers will contribute above the crossover point, which you have not revealed.
The speaker crossovers are L,R, 150 and C 70 and 100 for surrounds.
I know its high but I am stuck since they are in ceiling. This is with Audyssey.
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post #10384 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post
I had taken measurements for 15-200Hz because that is what I read on REW for subwoofer frequency only.
I can do up to 300Hz if that is what is needed.
The measurement I took was for sub only and no mains.
Now I have in ceiling speakers so I am sure the frequency won't be right for the speakers but trying to get a better EQ for sub.
At the same time I have not moved the sub to different areas yet but I will. The sub is a Kreisel dxd 12012 so I know it is capable.
Thank you!
I'd also be curious to see the graph of an 85db - 95db sweep. A 75db sweep doesn't really show the sub's 'capability'.

My old Bag End powered subs with their built-in 400watt amps would show flat output down to 7Hz when measuring at a low SPL like 75db. It sure wasn't the case by even 80db, much less 85db.


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post #10385 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post
I'd also be curious to see the graph of an 85db - 95db sweep. A 75db sweep doesn't really show the sub's 'capability'.

My old Bag End powered subs with their built-in 400watt amps would show flat output down to 7Hz when measuring at a low SPL like 75db. It sure wasn't the case by even 80db, much less 85db.


Max
For a sweep at 85db -95db do I set the graph limits to start at 85-95 spl instead of usual 0-150+ spl on the graph?
I read but am a little confused on how to set the graph for a higher sweep.
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post #10386 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post
For a sweep at 85db -95db do I set the graph limits to start at 85-95 spl instead of usual 0-150+ spl on the graph?
I read but am a little confused on how to set the graph for a higher sweep.
You turn the volume up for a louder sweep.


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post #10387 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 03:22 PM
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Based on conversations we have had on the ETC graph, I have heard a number of comments regarding the importance of symmetry in reflections between the left and right speaker measurements. I added a couple of new room treatments yesterday in order to balance the treatments on each side of the room. Here is a fresh comparison of the two ETC measurements. I would appreciate feedback WRT symmetry--does it look good, or are there areas that could use improvement?





Here are the panels I added (2 at the ceiling, and one more in front of the fireplace):







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post #10388 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 03:29 PM
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asere, when clicking on the thumbnails, the links are coming up as 'invalid'. Might be more teething problems from the forum switch.


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post #10389 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Based on conversations we have had on the ETC graph, I have heard a number of comments regarding the importance of symmetry in reflections between the left and right speaker measurements. I added a couple of new room treatments yesterday in order to balance the treatments on each side of the room. Here is a fresh comparison of the two ETC measurements. I would appreciate feedback WRT symmetry--does it look good, or are there areas that could use improvement?




Jerry, have you tried taking band limited ETC's to see how they compare in the different frequency ranges?


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post #10390 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 03:41 PM
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Subwoofer Measurements

Here are more graphs. The first Red one is at 75db with Audyssey on.
The Green one is at 85db with Audyssey on.
The Blue one is at 85db with Audyssey off.
How does it look from 15-300Hz?
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post #10391 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Based on conversations we have had on the ETC graph, I have heard a number of comments regarding the importance of symmetry in reflections between the left and right speaker measurements. I added a couple of new room treatments yesterday in order to balance the treatments on each side of the room. Here is a fresh comparison of the two ETC measurements. I would appreciate feedback WRT symmetry--does it look good, or are there areas that could use improvement?
I think it looks good enough, as far as a full range ETC can. Agree with Max that slices tell more of the story.


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post #10392 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
I think it looks good enough, as far as a full range ETC can. Agree with Max that slices tell more of the story.
OK, I'll slice it up later.

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post #10393 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post
asere, when clicking on the thumbnails, the links are coming up as 'invalid'. Might be more teething problems from the forum switch.


Max
I reposted the pics. Can you see them now?
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post #10394 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post
I reposted the pics. Can you see them now?
Yup, they're viewable now.

Have you tried different placements for the sub to see where you can get the best no-EQ response? If you're using a 150Hz XO for the LR, it looks like it could be problematic based on the FR of those graphs.

It also looks like in-room you have a peak at about 40Hz and the sub begins rolling off at about 30Hz. Audyssey has boosted that a little.

Try taking some measurements with either the L or R (not both) + sub from 15Hz to 20kHz (post both the 15 - 20,000Hz at 1/6 smoothing as well as the 15Hz - 300Hz No Smoothing graphs). That'll give us an idea of the integration. And take a couple of other measurements with the microphone 6-12" forward of the spot you've been placing it, as well as 6-12" to the left or right of the original measurement position. That'll provide a better idea of what is native and what is room induced.


Max

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post #10395 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post
Yup, they're viewable now.

Have you tried different placements for the sub to see where you can get the best no-EQ response? If you're using a 150Hz XO for the LR, it looks like it could be problematic based on the FR of those graphs.

It also looks like in-room you have a peak at about 40Hz and the sub begins rolling off at about 30Hz. Audyssey has boosted that a little.

Try taking some measurements with eitheir the L or R (not both) + sub from 15Hz to 20kHz (post both the 15 - 20,000Hz at 1/6 smoothing as well as the 15Hz - 300Hz No Smoothing graphs). That'll give us an idea of the integration. And take a couple of other measurements with the microphone 6-12" forward of the spot you've been placing it, as well as 6-12" to the left or right of the original measurement position. That'll provide a better idea of what is native and what is room induced.


Max
Thank you Max. I haven't moved the sub but I will. Its kinda hard to have time between work and the kiddos around making noise.
One issue I have is I'm using rca because I have no hdmi in my pc.
What I wanted to do now is move sub around with Audyssey off and then do the speakers with sub when I get hdmi capable pc.
One problem I'll have is with Audyssey setting the speaker frequency too high being in ceiling. And I won't be able to bring it down either or there will be a gap.

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I think it looks good enough, as far as a full range ETC can. Agree with Max that slices tell more of the story.
OK, here they are:






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post #10397 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
OK, here they are





So, what do you think?


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post #10398 of 11646 Old 06-12-2014, 09:04 PM
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Well, that's the thing, Jim. I'm hoping to get input from someone like yourself, who has spent a lot of time interpreting these types of measurement.

TBH, I didn't see any huge differences between left and right, which I think is positive.

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post #10399 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Well, that's the thing, Jim. I'm hoping to get input from someone like yourself, who has spent a lot of time interpreting these types of measurement.

TBH, I didn't see any huge differences between left and right, which I think is positive.
Id like to see one at 500hz also. Interpretation I am not so clear on cause ive seen so little of other peoples data and so few papers that cover sliced ETC's. I think the channel to channel balance can be assessed more easily than what the amplitudes or db down numbers should be.

Intuitively, the stronger the reflections, the more that they are heard, so the more important the channel to channel balance becomes. Once they are under -20db, the ch to ch balance becomes a bit less significant I would think. By -30db, it may not matter much.

What direction a reflection(s) is coming from plays a part as well.

What the amplitudes are telling me is that your treatments are more effective at 4k, than at 1K. Food for thought.

I generally think your ch balance looks ok. That -6db @ 1K @ 9ms on the Left ch sticks out a little however.


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post #10400 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by Rheagar 

Ok guys, help a noob out here. I cannot seem to get windows sound settings to recognize the AVR via the HDMI cable. .

I did read thru many of the pages in the first half of the thread and have still been unable to get the HDMI port to show as highligted.

I even put in another video card to see of it may have been the prot on my original card.

I am thinking it is some simple setting that I am missing? May be the cable is bad?

Thanks!


You said you read through the thread. Did you read the Guide (link in my sig)? On the AVR, you must configure the HDMI port you are using. For example, on my Denon, I use the HDMI port on the front panel. I needed to go into the configuration menu, select Inputs, and configure the AUX1 input to use the front panel HDMI connection.

Then, launch REW, select AUX1 on the AVR, and plug the HDMI cable in. You should get an HDMI handshake, and then the PC desktop should display on your TV monitor.
Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I have read thru the guide, and still cannot get it to show up. I went thru every option I could find on the AVR(RX-A720) and as far as I can tell it should be working. I tested my bluray player thru that input and it worked fine. This lead me back to thinking the cable may be bad.

One important fact that I did not mention. I am attempting to connect my PC across the room to the AVR. This need lead me to purchase this 50' cable.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I attempted to use it just now from the bluray player to the AVR, and it didn't work. Could it be bad, or the length is the problem somehow?

Thanks for your thoughts!

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post #10401 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 01:05 PM
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Well, whether it is bad, or too long, it doesn't work. If you can't figure out how to get the PC closer, then Redmere HDMI cables from Monoprice are what I use for long runs.


BTW, assuming you have a spare shorter cable, why don't you try it just to see if it works?

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post #10402 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 03:37 PM
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More sub graphs without Audyssey EQ

Below are more sub only measurements without eq.
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post #10403 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 03:42 PM
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Below are more sub only measurements without eq.
they are quite different, are they from 3 different listening positions or something else? are you running it corner loaded or not?
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post #10404 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 05:44 PM
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they are quite different, are they from 3 different listening positions or something else? are you running it corner loaded or not?
The sub in in the middle front wall. The measurements was at listening positions.
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Sub measurements

Ok so I moved the sub from the front middle wall to corner placement.
The first graph is middle wall and second is corner.
Please tell me which one is a better spot.
I personally think the middle wall was better than corner based on the graph or am I wrong?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post
Ok so I moved the sub from the front middle wall to corner placement.
The first graph is middle wall and second is corner.
Please tell me which one is a better spot.
I personally think the middle wall was better than corner based on the graph or am I wrong?
Graph 2 is not good at all. You should be able to determine that without any trouble. Corner placement is rarely a good spot.

You should be moving the sub to each of the possible locations in your room and selecting the spot with the smoothest response. And then running Audyssey with that location.

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post #10407 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Graph 2 is not good at all. You should be able to determine that without any trouble. Corner placement is rarely a good spot.

You should be moving the sub to each of the possible locations in your room and selecting the spot with the smoothest response. And then running Audyssey with that location.
Yes one for sure. Middle front wall is were my sub has always been except today I moved it to test with rew to a corner.
I then do Audyssey.
How come sub starts to roll off around 30 if its capable to go lower?
My room is roughly 5400cf and one sub might be why I guess.
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post #10408 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 09:40 PM
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If by "capable" you mean the manufacturer's claims, then you can't always go by what they say.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Id like to see one at 500hz also.

I generally think your ch balance looks ok. That -6db @ 1K @ 9ms on the Left ch sticks out a little however.
Here it is:



I suspect the reflection @ 9ms is caused by the body of the ceiling fan, which is unfortunately something that is difficult to eliminate.

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post #10410 of 11646 Old 06-13-2014, 11:22 PM
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Here are mine (forgot to capture the cursor position).












A quick overview.

The left speaker is approx 35cm from wall that is packed with pink fluffy.
The right speaker is approx 3.5m from bare wall. I suspect (at least some of) the FRP is actually the open area in the wall through to kitchen. Although the bare wall matches nicely with around 19ms.

Best guess for 2.55ms, the TV. Although the speakers are approx 35cm in front of TV. How an 4-8Khz sound wave goes behind the TV and reflects back to MLP is voodoo!

Best guess for 6.12ms, the rear wall. I have lots of pink fluffy on the rear wall to just above ear level. The front wall if very heavily damped with pink fluffy.

I suspect the region from 7ms through 15ms is is from multiple bounces. Although I would assume their level to be lower.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Intuitively, the stronger the reflections, the more that they are heard, so the more important the channel to channel balance becomes. Once they are under -20db, the ch to ch balance becomes a bit less significant I would think. By -30db, it may not matter much.
My observation (of my room) is that the right hand side of the room, feels more spacious then the left. The soundstage is centered, and the right hand side is not "live", just a little more spacious. So I would suggest that not only is the level of the reflection, a determining factor towards the listening experience, but also some relationship with the level difference between channels.

ie: At -10dB, greater then 3dB channel difference is problematic. At -30dB, greater then 6dB channel difference is problematic. Of course I don't know the exact numbers, but the relationship makes sense.


--------------------------------

I downloaded your mdats from your room thread. There is some strange phase issues in the left speaker. They correspond with the increased comb filtering in that channel. More dampening of the FRP?

Your last ETC graph in that thread shows the kickers to be perfectly matched, however, when I overlay them in REW, the right channel is around 0.2ms delayed, and a little under 2dB down. Measurement error?

Last edited by Audionut11; 06-14-2014 at 02:53 AM.
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