Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 349 - AVS Forum
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post #10441 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 07:55 AM
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REW is more than accurate for our purposes, and I don't care what fancy equipment KK is using to measure with, he should be able to read an REW FR graph.

And, "designed for corner placement" is pure BS IMO....all subs will benefit (SPL wise) from corner placement. Whether or not it will benefit any specific room can't be known until the sub is measured in said room.
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post #10442 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 07:56 AM
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[quote=Audionut11;25003946]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
1) Should I expect these to diminish/go away entirely?

1. Diminish, yes to some extent. When you have signal from a source, the signal radiates in a 360 degree pattern. From the source position to the listening position, there are points around the room, where the signal bounces once, before reaching the listening position. These are the first reflection points.

Sounds waves lose power as they travel through air, and when they bounce. So these first reflection points are important, as they are only secondary (in power level) to the direct line of sight sound waves from the source.

At other points around the room, the sounds waves have had to travel further, and suffer loss from multiple bounces, so they are generally considered less important.

So if you were to sit at the listening position, and have someone clap where a speaker is located, the "ringing" would be reduced well. If you were to stand in some random spot in the room, and clap your own hands, the difference with the panels installed, is probably going to be minor.
Yep, this makes sense. Thanks.

Here's a couple of pics of the progress. I don't want to break out REW until I'm finished... ;-)

Warning, pics are big...can't figure out how to get new forum software to size them for inlining...
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post #10443 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Well, whether it is bad, or too long, it doesn't work. If you can't figure out how to get the PC closer, then Redmere HDMI cables from Monoprice are what I use for long runs.


BTW, assuming you have a spare shorter cable, why don't you try it just to see if it works?
Message recieved. I moved the pc close to the avr and used a known good cable, with no change. I did happen to notice that when I would reboot window the bios and startup screen would show up on my tv(connected to avr) and then it would revert to the pc monitor at the log in screen. This tells me the cables work, its just some setting that I have wrong? My video card is a evga 650ti boost. Could it be an the HDMI driver problem?

Thanks for your suggestions.
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post #10444 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:12 AM
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I don't want to break out REW until I'm finished... ;-)
You should break it out now, to ensure you are expending effort in the places of greatest need. A panel designed for a FRP, placed just outside of a FRP, is useless.

If impressing clueless mates is your thing, well, then maybe they are not so useless.
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post #10445 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post
Ok so I moved the sub from the front middle wall to corner placement.
The first graph is middle wall and second is corner.
Please tell me which one is a better spot.
I personally think the middle wall was better than corner based on the graph or am I wrong?
Question Asere: Did you re-run Audyssey when you moved the sub to the corner? If not, your response definitely may improve with corner placement. When you are trying different placement options, you should measure with Audyssey off so you can get a good comparison. Audyssey EQ'ed your sub for one position and you moved it to another - the Audyssey EQ is no longer valid for the new position.
Ys I did REW with no Audyssey in the corner and then with Audyssey calibrated. The green graph I posted earlier is with Audyssey.
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post #10446 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
REW is more than accurate for our purposes, and I don't care what fancy equipment KK is using to measure with, he should be able to read an REW FR graph.

And, "designed for corner placement" is pure BS IMO....all subs will benefit (SPL wise) from corner placement. Whether or not it will benefit any specific room can't be known until the sub is measured in said room.
I think, at least so far as I have gleaned from a few comments in various places from people familiar with his subs, KK has the same view as lyngdorf here (re their use of boundary woofers). Leaving aside the SPL boost from corner loading & maximal mode excitement, I believe the theory is that response will decay more consistently over time as the reflection is right on top of the direct wave. I've never seen this effect demonstrated via measurements though for a KK sub.

@asere if you post details of your room layout then you may get some more helpful advice as to how to place the sub to best effect.
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post #10447 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
I don't want to break out REW until I'm finished... ;-)
You should break it out now, to ensure you are expending effort in the places of greatest need. A panel designed for a FRP, placed just outside of a FRP, is useless.
Fair enough, but if the panels are already placed at the observed (using a mirror) FRP, what am I looking for? And, furthermore, does it make any sense to measure a given speaker (let's say front left) when only the left wall has been treated (still to come is the right wall, and the ceiling). Should I take the panel off the wall, measure, put the panel back, measure, and then compare the ETC? Is that the best way to show the results of what I am trying to achieve? I assume this is more about ETC then in is about FR. Right?

Thanks again!
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post #10448 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rheagar View Post
Message recieved. I moved the pc close to the avr and used a known good cable, with no change. I did happen to notice that when I would reboot window the bios and startup screen would show up on my tv(connected to avr) and then it would revert to the pc monitor at the log in screen. This tells me the cables work, its just some setting that I have wrong? My video card is a evga 650ti boost. Could it be an the HDMI driver problem?

Thanks for your suggestions.
Your description is consistent with your computer using a screen resolution which is not compatible with the AVR. Most AVRs will pass only the standard home entertainment video resolutions. E.g. 1920x1080, 1280x720, 720x480 & 640x480 or the PAL equivalents for the latter two.

BIOS and startup screens are 640x480, so they're fine. However, if your computer's default screen resolution is, for example, 1366x728, that can't get through.

Most video cards support a second video output which can be set to any resolution, so that might be an option for you.

Selden

Last edited by Selden Ball; 06-16-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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post #10449 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 09:49 AM
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Hey guys,

I'm looking to get a cheapo laptop for the sole purpose of running REW - I'm sick of stringing analog cables across my living room from my AVR to my PC - will this one get the job done you think?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA3SB1F15558
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post #10450 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hey guys,

I'm looking to get a cheapo laptop for the sole purpose of running REW - I'm sick of stringing analog cables across my living room from my AVR to my PC - will this one get the job done you think?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA3SB1F15558
I have a 1.3G Celeron that runs REW just fine. That LT will work fine.

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post #10451 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hey guys,

I'm looking to get a cheapo laptop for the sole purpose of running REW - I'm sick of stringing analog cables across my living room from my AVR to my PC - will this one get the job done you think?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA3SB1F15558
Just make sure it can be returned if it doesn't pass the REW test. 7.1 HDMI support in particular.
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post #10452 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by asere View Post
Ken Kreisel told me yesterday...[snip] I showed him the REW graphs and he said they are meaningless to him because of how REW measures the room. He uses of course more sophisticated equipment.
Don't know who that KK joker is (I've heard of him), but JIC nobody else says it: ignore him and go to a more informed source. If he really said that. I'm sure I'm speaking for many other people who may have reason to hold their tongue.
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post #10453 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 03:20 PM
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Thanks Jerry. Just checked and it's 30 days no questions asked...order placed!

I'm gonna have to read up on REW + HDMI now I guess. Should be a lot easier than what I've been doing though!
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post #10454 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
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Originally Posted by asere View Post
Ok so I moved the sub from the front middle wall to corner placement.
The first graph is middle wall and second is corner.
Please tell me which one is a better spot.
I personally think the middle wall was better than corner based on the graph or am I wrong?
Question Asere: Did you re-run Audyssey when you moved the sub to the corner? If not, your response definitely may improve with corner placement. When you are trying different placement options, you should measure with Audyssey off so you can get a good comparison. Audyssey EQ'ed your sub for one position and you moved it to another - the Audyssey EQ is no longer valid for the new position.
Ys I did REW with no Audyssey in the corner and then with Audyssey calibrated. The green graph I posted earlier is with Audyssey.
Yes, but did you re-run Audyssey after you moved the sub to the corner, or did you just turn it back on?? It's not clear from your reply.
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post #10455 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, but did you re-run Audyssey after you moved the sub to the corner, or did you just turn it back on?? It's not clear from your reply.
Yes I reran Audyssey after I placed it on corner.
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post #10456 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 07:34 PM
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Fair enough, but if the panels are already placed at the observed (using a mirror) FRP, what am I looking for? And, furthermore, does it make any sense to measure a given speaker (let's say front left) when only the left wall has been treated (still to come is the right wall, and the ceiling). Should I take the panel off the wall, measure, put the panel back, measure, and then compare the ETC? Is that the best way to show the results of what I am trying to achieve? I assume this is more about ETC then in is about FR. Right?
It's all about the ETC.

Since you're using the mirror method, you should have the locations for the treatments nailed. If you can remove the panels easily, I would do so, so you have a baseline measurement with no treatment.

What makes sense for the measurements, depends on how willing you are to understand the effects the panels have. If you run a measurement now, you can at least confirm your placement of the panels.

The general consensus is to have all unwanted reflections at -20dB as soon as possible in the time domain.

Here is a random ETC from google.



And my own.



I'm a little overboard with my treatments, but you can see in the above graph, there are a few reflections above -20dB.

Last edited by Audionut11; 06-16-2014 at 07:45 PM.
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post #10457 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:09 PM
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^ Guys,

Need some advice on the bass. If there was a priority, what's more important; a smooth frequency from 15Hz to 300Hz or having the decay as short as possible below 450ms?

The sub position and the MLP are fixed. There are no room treatments.

When experimenting with the MiniDSP the question was to include pre or post room correction? I'm finding out that when implementing the cuts first in the pre step, then doing the room correction I get a nice frequency response, but the decay is terrible. Checking the spectrogram confirms this. I don't understand what's causing this extended decay...

When doing the room correction first followed by the MiniDSP in the post step, the frequency response is okay but the decay is much better. Looking at the spectorgram confirmed this.

With each experiment, I had a listen to some tunes and watched a few TV shows. I'm liking the post room correction more due to the faster bass decay which makes it sound less boomy.

If anyone has the MiniDSP (or similar device) in the LFE chain, would appreciate your thoughts on the pre and post results.

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post #10458 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:22 PM
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FR and decay go hand in hand, although I would probably preference towards decay. There is no point having a flat FR, when you have large levels of decay. Decay isn't visible in the FR, but obviously produces a profound effect on the listening experience.

And similarly the other way also. There is no point generating an excellent decay plot, if it produces a large peak/null in the FR. This also deteriorates the listening experience.

I don't see the point in pre-eq, it's better IMO, to EQ the response in-room.

All things being equal, you can EQ out room modes.
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post #10459 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:29 PM
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Does anyone know how to insert pictures into posts before AVS changed their platform?

Would like to include the spectrograms in my previous post to show what I meant, but when clicking on the insert picture icon, all I get is a URL link...

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post #10460 of 10744 Old 06-16-2014, 08:32 PM
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Upload the image to an image host first (I like imgur), and post the direct image link in the url link.

Or use the manage attachments feature, and upload directly from your computer.
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post #10461 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
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Does anyone know how to insert pictures into posts before AVS changed their platform?

Would like to include the spectrograms in my previous post to show what I meant, but when clicking on the insert picture icon, all I get is a URL link...
try these instructions - How to put an image in a post!
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post #10462 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
It's all about the ETC.

Since you're using the mirror method, you should have the locations for the treatments nailed. If you can remove the panels easily, I would do so, so you have a baseline measurement with no treatment.

What makes sense for the measurements, depends on how willing you are to understand the effects the panels have. If you run a measurement now, you can at least confirm your placement of the panels.

The general consensus is to have all unwanted reflections at -20dB as soon as possible in the time domain.
Okay. My panels were designed for extremely simple removal/attachment/placement. They are just hanging on french cleats, so it's trivial to take them down and get a measurement before and after.

I'll do that as soon as I can get some time (and have a quiet house). Thanks!
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post #10463 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 09:13 AM
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Room Layout

Alan, here is a crappy drawing for now for my room. The sub was in between the components and the window and then I moved it to A corner placement and the REW is still off.
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post #10464 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 09:44 AM
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That helps, but what are the dimensions?
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post #10465 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 10:21 AM
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That helps, but what are the dimensions?
30x20x9. The ceiling is partially vaulted to I took the highest measurement of 9ft.
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post #10466 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 11:01 AM
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Well asere, that's quite a large room (~5400 cu. ft.) for your dual-opposed 12" drivers - I don't care what Kreisel says (which isn't much...there's precious little info on his subs online). I particularly love this quote from his site; "produces an explosive 3D sound pressure wavefront in the studio or home theater". Wha...??

You may need more woofage....but first, let's get some measurements we can trust. You order that mic boom yet?
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post #10467 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 11:13 AM
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OK asere, I found some specs on your DXD-12012 and they reflect exactly what you're seeing in your graphs as far as the steep rolloff at 30hz goes:

Bass output (CEA-2010A standard)
• Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 109.8 dB
20 Hz 104.7 dB
25 Hz 110.3 dB
31.5 Hz 112.7 dB L
• Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 122.5 dB
40 Hz 121.2 dB L
50 Hz 123.1 dB L
63 Hz 123.2 dB L

This sub is down 16.5db from 40hz to 20hz! Not good for movies my friend, you want solid extension down to at least 20hz.

This review points out that it's a very musical sub though, although the reviewer admits that much better can be had for much less.
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post #10468 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 12:27 PM
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thanks to AustinJerry for the "push' to spend some time with the REW Room Sim.
The 15 x 28'1" x 8 is about 3.3K ft^3 and with the attached dining room , kitchen and hallways totals about 5K
So working primarily with just the LR spaces, I see where the problems might be and fussing with movement/placement and DSP on the Inuke
The question will be: In the selection of sub type you get either sealed or ported but no "horn", either TH or FLH or anything
So which setting may present the best actual starting point?


there is a fresh REW post of my current effort (sub + mains, xo80, a HPF and 4 PEQ's), posted last night over on the "Submaximus" thread.
I realize "flat" isn't necessarily the "best" for every set-up answer but I'd like to think this a good start toward integration with the mains.


Is my question "sealed or ported" moot?


I'm going to run the YPAO for the system today and break out the REW again.


critiques welcomed

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post #10469 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
OK asere, I found some specs on your DXD-12012 and they reflect exactly what you're seeing in your graphs as far as the steep rolloff at 30hz goes:

Bass output (CEA-2010A standard)
• Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 109.8 dB
20 Hz 104.7 dB
25 Hz 110.3 dB
31.5 Hz 112.7 dB L
• Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 122.5 dB
40 Hz 121.2 dB L
50 Hz 123.1 dB L
63 Hz 123.2 dB L

This sub is down 16.5db from 40hz to 20hz! Not good for movies my friend, you want solid extension down to at least 20hz.

This review points out that it's a very musical sub though, although the reviewer admits that much better can be had for much less.
Thanks for the link on the review. The sub is really clean and offers very tight bass and has the slam for movies even in my 5400cf space. I mean when watching Tron Legacy for example I could feel the couch vibration.
Ken makes them for clean sound not really for higher spls and the 3D pulsar is for multiple subs.
Rolling off at 30hz based on the review and based on what I see with my graphs is disappointing at least on paper.
Here is another review graph for the 12012 and also the complete sub review.
As you can see the sub extends really low on the graph. I think in my case is the room size, mode and maybe better placement that I am still working on. Sounds really nice now like I said but now that I have REW I need to see it roll off much later especially if it is capable from the review.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...er-review.html
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post #10470 of 10744 Old 06-17-2014, 12:41 PM
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All that review shows is room gain, it is a bit of a daft comment from the author to say it extends to 4.5Hz. You may well need 4 of them to get the extension you appear to be after.
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