Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 359 - AVS Forum
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post #10741 of 10765 Old 07-09-2014, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
Thanks Markus. Between that and the link 3ll3d00d shared earlier, I have some good reading to do.
I remember reading that thread (linked by JohnM) at the time & finding it confusing (IIRC it meanders through some measurement errors). FWIW you can see the 1st example of me doing thisstarting at this post in this thread which might be useful as a summary/starter guide.
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post #10742 of 10765 Old 07-14-2014, 02:14 PM
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This is the thread to start with REW, and it has 10,741 posts.

I have read many at the beginning and end. What I need is a primer on basic how-to analyse your current audio performance.

I am considering doing this and testing with REW prior to adding ANY acoustical treatments in the room.

Can anybody point me to a thread or post that gives some beginning instruction as to how to tackle this in a DIY perspective; not just "hire some professional to do it" answer?

I really truly appreciate everyone's contribution in this thread.

Kyle
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post #10743 of 10765 Old 07-14-2014, 02:26 PM
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Kyle, I can't tell from your post whether you are a already familiar with REW, and are looking for guidance on how to interpret your measurements, or whether you are seeking advice on how to use REW. If it is the latter, then have you looked at the REW beginner's guide? There is a link in my sig. If you are looking for advice on existing measurements, post them here, and you will get plenty of feedback.
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post #10744 of 10765 Old 07-14-2014, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipford View Post
Can anybody point me to a thread or post that gives some beginning instruction as to how to tackle this in a DIY perspective; not just "hire some professional to do it" answer?

The acoustical master thread and the DIY movie poster acoustic panel threads helped me the most.
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post #10745 of 10765 Old 07-25-2014, 11:14 AM
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Help with nasty null?

I was shocked running REW with my new sub (empty room) to find a nasty nasty null. I've moved both my MLP and sub around to a number of positions and could use some guidance. My room's dimensions aren't THAT far off a recommended ratio--or so I thought.

Is this my room--or my sub? Would love an expert opinion--especially what is happening when I add Roxul in the corners. I would like to keep my MLP as centered (width) as possible for imaging.

Anyhow:

Room is 120" by 196.5" by 88". The room is sealed--double walled--double solid core doors. The "room layout.jpg" below doesn't show the window on the top wall, the door on the bottom wall left, or the closet for the equipment rack on the bottom right. I'm working on it.

Running REW I found the best height for my MLP was around 39" from the floor. Got steadily worse until 50" was abysmal. Moving the MLP forward and backward "move MLP depth.png" I found 64" from the back wall (top green) to be the smoothest. Then weeks later I continued my testing at 74" (38% rule perhaps?) though I'm now not sure why as 64" was superior...

"Move Sub along wall" had me running the sub toward me along the right wall until it was comically close to the MLP--perhaps not doable. It ended up looking the flattest at 64" off the front wall "sub along side wall right".

Fearing this didn't seem a very viable placement I found the flattest response along the front wall placing the sub at about 31.5" off the left wall, and 48-52" into the room "best along front wall".

Finally I temporarily placed 3 bags of Roxul safe n sound in the corners. Front left and right and back left "adding roxul".

Adding the Roxul did some pretty funky stuff from 60Hz upward that I don't understand. I've also included a waterfall comparison "adding roxul waterfall".

Gear:
UMIK-1 with horizontal orientation and calibration file
Onkyo 805 with audyssey disengaged and crossover at 120Hz (highest it will go)
SVS PB-2000 at 75dB, phase at 0, input on LFE

So.....what insight does any of this provide--if any? How close could I get this response to flat without a second sub and just using placement and a miniDSP do you think? Would dual subs in such a small room (damn you ceiling!!!) even be beneficial?

I wish I hadn't blown my budget on a single sub! Doh!

Edit: Apologies in advance--it appears I had my graphs end at 120Hz--not 200Hz as instructed...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg room layout.jpg (131.9 KB, 27 views)
File Type: png move sub along wall.png (182.8 KB, 26 views)
File Type: png move mlp depth.png (96.6 KB, 23 views)
File Type: png best along front wall.png (49.7 KB, 26 views)
File Type: png adding roxul.png (57.4 KB, 27 views)
File Type: png adding roxul waterfall.png (574.8 KB, 27 views)
File Type: png sub on right wall.png (40.6 KB, 20 views)

Last edited by HDgaming42; 07-25-2014 at 01:05 PM.
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post #10746 of 10765 Old 07-25-2014, 06:45 PM
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Had Dan AKA SmithandWEsson over my house to run REW on my system. But we got these strange readings with my KEF Q900 fronts taking a nose dive around 2k.
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File Type: jpg kef.jpg (123.7 KB, 26 views)


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post #10748 of 10765 Old 07-25-2014, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post

Is this my room--or my sub?
RoomSim

Using your measurements as near as I could guess, to simulate your room, with 1/12 octave smoothing:



I guess "Room".


RoomSim at Sourceforge

There may be better simulators, don't know. Maybe you already have one.

I'll be back later...

equitech 1.5RQ -> various digital sources > benchmark > krell pre and monoblocks > reQuest
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post #10749 of 10765 Old 07-26-2014, 01:00 AM
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Hi AustinJerry,

His a forum member and he was showing me how REW works. We ran REW in my room and we got those readings. Need help understanding what is going on.


Last edited by jsil; 07-26-2014 at 10:23 AM.
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post #10750 of 10765 Old 07-26-2014, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
How close could I get this response to flat without a second sub and just using placement and a miniDSP do you think?
Place the sub VERY close to your head behind the listening position, about 1' from your ears. This puts you in the direct field of the sub where SPL is very high compared to what is sent into the room. You'll hear a lot more direct sound and way less detrimental room effects.
The only drawback of this setup is that it's highly listening position dependent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
Would dual subs in such a small room (damn you ceiling!!!) even be beneficial?
Yes, if you place them correctly.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole

Last edited by markus767; 07-26-2014 at 05:41 AM.
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post #10751 of 10765 Old 07-26-2014, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
RoomSim

Using your measurements as near as I could guess, to simulate your room, with 1/12 octave smoothing:



I guess "Room".


RoomSim at Sourceforge

There may be better simulators, don't know. Maybe you already have one.
Oddly enough, I think I've run every damned calculator under the sun...but a room simulator. Completely ignorant of their existence. Room mode calculators didn't (at least to me) predict this mess as clearly as what RoomSim seems to have done. Thanks for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Place the sub VERY close to your head behind the listening position, about 1' from your ears. This puts you in the direct field of the sub where SPL is very high compared to what is sent into the room. You'll hear a lot more direct sound and way less detrimental room effects.
The only drawback of this setup is that it's highly listening position dependent.
Initially I read that as "one inch". The room is already skirting the outer boundaries of WAF; I think that would be the final straw!
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Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
Initially I read that as "one inch". The room is already skirting the outer boundaries of WAF; I think that would be the final straw!
A sub at about shoulder height is probably more WAF friendly then a sub out in the room where it can be seen all the time.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #10753 of 10765 Old 07-26-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
Oddly enough, I think I've run every damned calculator under the sun...but a room simulator. Completely ignorant of their existence. Room mode calculators didn't (at least to me) predict this mess as clearly as what RoomSim seems to have done. Thanks for this.
Your measurements are a good example why I keep telling people to use room simulators ONLY for educational purposes and NOT for planning a real setup.
If you plug dimensions and locations of your room into REW's room simulator then you'll see a very different picture than the actual situation as shown by your measurements. Only in-room measurements tell the truth.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 07-26-2014 at 09:44 AM.
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post #10754 of 10765 Old 07-26-2014, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Your measurements are a good example why I keep telling people to use room simulators ONLY for educational purposes and NOT for planning a real setup.
If you plug dimensions and locations of your room into REW's room simulator then you'll see a very different picture than the actual situation as shown by your measurements. Only in-room measurements tell the truth.
Can you comment as to why adding Roxul seems to raise up one null slightly, while creating (moving forward?) a new, much deeper null?
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post #10755 of 10765 Old 07-26-2014, 02:33 PM
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^
There are many modes and changing their contribution will change the room's transfer function at the listening position.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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I notice now that the current 'beta' version of REW includes a shoebox room simulation.

It's probably already been mentioned a hundred times in this thread, but I'm late to the party, and it is a topic at the moment.

I'll be back later...

equitech 1.5RQ -> various digital sources > benchmark > krell pre and monoblocks > reQuest
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post #10757 of 10765 Old Yesterday, 10:04 AM
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I know you guys are eager for another way to test your system

ASC MATT Testâ„¢
http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/matt-test
Actually, this test is pretty easy to run and to interpret, so don't get scared away just yet.


It so happens I have the Stereophile Test Cd 2, so I ripped track 19 to a WAV file using EAC and uploaded it to my dropbox account. Here is the file:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tereophile.wav


I then opened Omnimic (I am sure you can do the same thing in REW) and watched the FFT (RTA in REW?), paused the screen at various points (around 100hz, 350hz, and 700hz) and snapshoted the image so I could see it clearly. Here is what mine looked like.

100hz MATT.jpg

350hz MATT.jpg

700hz MATT.jpg

Have fun

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Last edited by jim19611961; Yesterday at 10:51 AM.
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post #10758 of 10765 Old Yesterday, 10:53 AM
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Thanks Jim but why look at it with an RTA? This file needs to be listened to.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #10759 of 10765 Old Yesterday, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Thanks Jim but why look at it with an RTA? This file needs to be listened to.
Because I wanted to see what kind of swings I was getting as per the following quote from the article:

What does the test tell me?

The MATT test provides two pieces of information: how loud the sound is and how articulate the sound is. The maximum readout on the sound level meter during a tone burst is an indication, in decibels, of how loud your system is at that frequency. The difference in readout between the highest and lowest swing of the needle during a tone burst tells us how articulate the sound is at that frequency. Generally speaking, you can follow the following table to determine how articulate your sound is at various frequencies.
  • 15dB swing - excellent
  • 10dB swing - good
  • 5 dB swing - fair
  • 3 dB swing - poor
  • 1 db swing - bad

My Room
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Jenzen Next ( http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jenzen-NEXT.htm )
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Don't think your FFT is showing what the text describes.

Farina describes a measuring method that is based on bursts in
http://pcfarina.eng.unipr.it/Public/...153-AES110.PDF
http://pcfarina.eng.unipr.it/Public/...177-AES114.PDF

Markus

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post #10761 of 10765 Old Yesterday, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Don't think your FFT is showing what the text describes.

Farina describes a measuring method that is based on bursts in
http://pcfarina.eng.unipr.it/Public/...153-AES110.PDF
http://pcfarina.eng.unipr.it/Public/...177-AES114.PDF
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/10292582-post117.html
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/10270472-post115.html

Lets see what Art says.

My Room
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My Music
http://rateyourmusic.com/~jim1961

My Equipment

Rega - Apollo
Rega - DAC
Goldpoint Passive
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Jenzen Next ( http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jenzen-NEXT.htm )
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What settings did you use in your RTA? It seems like you would need to be quite careful with the windows to make sure you have the temporal resolution you need (possibly even needing a frequency dependent windowing capable RTA, if such a thing exists) to see what is going on. A spectrumlab trace would be quite interesting.

I like the irony in using an fft based system to measure this BTW
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post #10763 of 10765 Old Yesterday, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
What settings did you use in your RTA? It seems like you would need to be quite careful with the windows to make sure you have the temporal resolution you need (possibly even needing a frequency dependent windowing capable RTA, if such a thing exists) to see what is going on. A spectrumlab trace would be quite interesting.

I like the irony in using an fft based system to measure this BTW
In OM, your settings options are more limited. Basically, I choose the fastest (impulse) response with no smoothing or weighting.

My Room
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/817205-my-listening-room.html

My Music
http://rateyourmusic.com/~jim1961

My Equipment

Rega - Apollo
Rega - DAC
Goldpoint Passive
(2) Classe CA-100 bridged power amps (350w)
Jenzen Next ( http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jenzen-NEXT.htm )
...
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You simply need to record the linked MATT signal at the listening position and compare it to the original waveform. See http://www.acousticsciences.com/matt

Markus

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
I was shocked running REW with my new sub (empty room) to find a nasty nasty null. I've moved both my MLP and sub around to a number of positions and could use some guidance. My room's dimensions aren't THAT far off a recommended ratio--or so I thought.

Is this my room--or my sub? Would love an expert opinion--especially what is happening when I add Roxul in the corners. I would like to keep my MLP as centered (width) as possible for imaging.

Anyhow:

Room is 120" by 196.5" by 88". The room is sealed--double walled--double solid core doors. The "room layout.jpg" below doesn't show the window on the top wall, the door on the bottom wall left, or the closet for the equipment rack on the bottom right. I'm working on it.

Running REW I found the best height for my MLP was around 39" from the floor. Got steadily worse until 50" was abysmal. Moving the MLP forward and backward "move MLP depth.png" I found 64" from the back wall (top green) to be the smoothest. Then weeks later I continued my testing at 74" (38% rule perhaps?) though I'm now not sure why as 64" was superior...

"Move Sub along wall" had me running the sub toward me along the right wall until it was comically close to the MLP--perhaps not doable. It ended up looking the flattest at 64" off the front wall "sub along side wall right".

Fearing this didn't seem a very viable placement I found the flattest response along the front wall placing the sub at about 31.5" off the left wall, and 48-52" into the room "best along front wall".

Finally I temporarily placed 3 bags of Roxul safe n sound in the corners. Front left and right and back left "adding roxul".

Adding the Roxul did some pretty funky stuff from 60Hz upward that I don't understand. I've also included a waterfall comparison "adding roxul waterfall".

Gear:
UMIK-1 with horizontal orientation and calibration file
Onkyo 805 with audyssey disengaged and crossover at 120Hz (highest it will go)
SVS PB-2000 at 75dB, phase at 0, input on LFE

So.....what insight does any of this provide--if any? How close could I get this response to flat without a second sub and just using placement and a miniDSP do you think? Would dual subs in such a small room (damn you ceiling!!!) even be beneficial?

I wish I hadn't blown my budget on a single sub! Doh!

Edit: Apologies in advance--it appears I had my graphs end at 120Hz--not 200Hz as instructed...
Hey HD - sorry, I really thought you might get more input in this thread.

Anyways, have you played around with the room sim in REW? That null at 45hz is nasty with those dimensions....have you considered knocking down a wall??

With your MLP at 5'4" from the back wall, I found with the room sim that if you place the sub along one of the side walls 3' from the back wall gives the best response. Give it a shot!
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