Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 363 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10861 of 14813 Old 07-31-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
In a home theatre enviroment, each speaker should be capable of 105dB of output, with the subwoofer reaching 115dB.

For me, 105dB peaks is confortable (somewhat dependant on content).
Aren't hearing loss and possible tinnitus matters of concern for some of you folks?
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post #10862 of 14813 Old 08-01-2014, 12:19 AM
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Aren't hearing loss and possible tinnitus matters of concern for some of you folks?
There's a difference between transient peaks and constant.
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post #10863 of 14813 Old 08-01-2014, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
In a home theatre enviroment, each speaker should be capable of 105dB of output, with the subwoofer reaching 115dB.
this is only correct if you run full range speakers all round
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post #10864 of 14813 Old 08-01-2014, 01:36 AM
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this is only correct if you run full range speakers all round
How exactly?
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post #10865 of 14813 Old 08-01-2014, 02:09 AM
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How exactly?
The main channels are full range so the summation of their content plus the LFE can lift the total SPL higher. I posted a link in my last post that goes into more detail.
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post #10866 of 14813 Old 08-01-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
There's a difference between transient peaks and constant.
OK, but it's worth considering what the NIH has to say:
"Sounds of less than 75 decibels, even after long exposure, are unlikely to cause hearing loss. However, long or repeated exposure to sounds at or above 85 decibels can cause hearing loss. The louder the sound, the shorter the amount of time it takes for NIHL to happen."
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post #10867 of 14813 Old 08-01-2014, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hardin View Post
OK, but it's worth considering what the NIH has to say:
"Sounds of less than 75 decibels, even after long exposure, are unlikely to cause hearing loss. However, long or repeated exposure to sounds at or above 85 decibels can cause hearing loss. The louder the sound, the shorter the amount of time it takes for NIHL to happen."
Peaks of 105db could mean the average is anywhere between 85 and 95db, depending on how dynamic the source. The factoids ive seen on hearing loss are time dependent, meaning the louder the source, the less time it takes for hearing loss to occur. At 90db, you would have to listen for hours and hours and hours to induce hearing loss. To sit and listen to one 5 or 10 minute song, or even an entire album, 90 or 95db average is quite safe.

Case and point. A lawnmower is said to be 106db loud. And that is continuous. I suppose the average lawn takes anywhere from 45 minutes to over an hour to mow.

http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/Noise/

BTW, I can still hear to 15K. Tested just the other day.

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post #10868 of 14813 Old 08-01-2014, 11:17 AM
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I always wear earplugs when I mow the lawn.
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post #10869 of 14813 Old 08-01-2014, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
The main channels are full range so the summation of their content plus the LFE can lift the total SPL higher. I posted a link in my last post that goes into more detail.
Oh. You're describing listening content, and I'm describing test signals.
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post #10870 of 14813 Old 08-02-2014, 08:03 PM
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Can someone share the link to JPA's mac guide for REW. I've been searching for nearly an hour and can't find it. The link in the "getting started with REW guide" just takes me to the last page of this thread.
Thanks.
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post #10871 of 14813 Old 08-02-2014, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by LO4F View Post
Can someone share the link to JPA's mac guide for REW. I've been searching for nearly an hour and can't find it. The link in the "getting started with REW guide" just takes me to the last page of this thread.
Thanks.
Embedded links broke because of the move of the AVS Forum to a different software platform. It will probably take years to clean it all up (ask Keith). Strange that you were not able to find it by searching for posts authored by user J_P_A. It is post #4574 in this thread. I have fixed the link in the guide as well.
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post #10872 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 10:58 AM
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OK, my project today is to use REW/ETC to hunt down some pesky remaining reflections, and I need some advice from our reflections experts (Jim ).

My approach is to use the "Blocking Technique", employing a spare 2'x4' acoustic panel to narrow down the direction of the unwanted reflections. Let's start by looking at a nasty reflection associated with the center channel:



Here is the result of placing the blocking panel behind the listening position:



Looks like I have found the source! It is the back wall. This is where I need some advice. I have a rather narrow back wall section, the rest being open to the rest of the ground floor. Here are pictures:





And with the blocking panel in place:



Note that the entire back wall is already covered with GIK Acoustics 242 panels. The placement of an additional panel seems to alleviate the reflection that must be coming from the 242 panels themselves. But how could a 242 panel be causing a reflection? Is it because these panels are ineffective?

Now let's look at the right front speaker:



Now with the blocking panel behind the seating position:



Once again, the additional absorption on the back wall seems to alleviate the reflection, indicating that the 242 panels are not doing a good job.

So, advice needed. What to do about the ineffective 242 panels? Replace them? Ask for advice from GIK?

For the time being, I am simply going to leave the extra panel in place. It isn't pretty, but the additional absorption is effective.
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post #10873 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
OK, my project today is to use REW/ETC to hunt down some pesky remaining reflections, and I need some advice from our reflections experts (Jim ).
Here are a few guesses Jerry.

1) Where the GIK panels come together, at the seams that separate each panel, can you feel whether there is framing wood/plastic or absorber at the boundaries of the panels? If framing material, perhaps the bounce is off of those. Might help to put some spare absorption pieces at these boundaries.

2) Is the extra blocking panel at the same angle as the permanent panels behind? Does changing the angle of the blocking panel make any difference?

3) Is the permanent panel hung in such a way so you can flip it 180 degrees so the top is at the bottom, and the bottom at the top? Again I am thinking about the seam, and flipping would put the horizontal seam higher, further away from ear level.

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post #10874 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 12:06 PM
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Good questions, Jim. The GIK panels are constructed to minimize potential reflections from the frame. There is a thicker frame at the back, with a much narrower extension towards the front to hold the absorbing material in place. The narrow front-facing frame is probably only 1/8 inch wide. Here is an attempt to illustrate what I am describing:



I have not rotated the blocking panel--something to try.

Regarding re-arranging the permanent panels, is this what you are talking about?



Given the information about the thinness of the frame, do you still think this suggestion has merit? TBH, the revised layout actually looks better--I don't know why I didn't do it this way to begin with.
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post #10875 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 12:24 PM
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New REW beta 22 is out with substantial improvements and fixes for the EQ tool:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post865057

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #10876 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Good questions, Jim. The GIK panels are constructed to minimize potential reflections from the frame. There is a thicker frame at the back, with a much narrower extension towards the front to hold the absorbing material in place. The narrow front-facing frame is probably only 1/8 inch wide. Here is an attempt to illustrate what I am describing:



I have not rotated the blocking panel--something to try.

Regarding re-arranging the permanent panels, is this what you are talking about?



Given the information about the thinness of the frame, do you still think this suggestion has merit? TBH, the revised layout actually looks better--I don't know why I didn't do it this way to begin with.
I could only see this much in your photo.

Click image for larger version

Name:	jerry 1.JPG
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ID:	195057

So I thought flipping would benefit. Looking again, this is what the bottom portion looks like, right?

I think we need to determine that the seam is the problem. Have some attic insulation (R19) or OC703 you can put across the seams with some tape or something?

Also, have you used the filtered IR to see what frequency range the reflection in question resides at?

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Last edited by jim19611961; 08-03-2014 at 12:50 PM.
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post #10877 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
New REW beta 22 is out with substantial improvements and fixes for the EQ tool:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post865057
Thanks!

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post #10878 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Embedded links broke because of the move of the AVS Forum to a different software platform. It will probably take years to clean it all up (ask Keith). Strange that you were not able to find it by searching for posts authored by user J_P_A. It is post #4574 in this thread. I have fixed the link in the guide as well.
Thanks much! I used the forum search, thread search, and google site:avsforum.com search to no avail... Thanks for updating the thread as well.
I've used REW on windows and just got a new mac. I haven't had any luck on the mac side, so I'm hoping JPA's setup will help.
Thanks again.
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post #10879 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Here are a few guesses Jerry.

1) Where the GIK panels come together, at the seams that separate each panel, can you feel whether there is framing wood/plastic or absorber at the boundaries of the panels? If framing material, perhaps the bounce is off of those. Might help to put some spare absorption pieces at these boundaries.

2) Is the extra blocking panel at the same angle as the permanent panels behind? Does changing the angle of the blocking panel make any difference?

3) Is the permanent panel hung in such a way so you can flip it 180 degrees so the top is at the bottom, and the bottom at the top? Again I am thinking about the seam, and flipping would put the horizontal seam higher, further away from ear level.
My 2 cents...(in order of effort)
Like Jim suggested, I would resolve the seam first with some additional fluffy taped up along horizontal length. If confirmed, change orientation of panels and retest.

If no improvement, then could be 2 things:
1) Higher freq content being reflected off of existing panel material. Assuming the material of the additional/test panel is same as existing, the additional thickness of the test panel may be changing angle of reflection. Solution thicker panel (change angle), different material, or angle the panel. May be some others but those are first to mind.
2) Lower freq content being attenuated via addition of test panel. Solution, add thicker panel there.

Like Jim said (again) , knowing spectrum of that reflection may shed some more light.
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post #10880 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 03:25 PM
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My 2 cents...(in order of effort)
Like Jim suggested, I would resolve the seam first with some additional fluffy taped up along horizontal length. If confirmed, change orientation of panels and retest.

If no improvement, then could be 2 things:
1) Higher freq content being reflected off of existing panel material. Assuming the material of the additional/test panel is same as existing, the additional thickness of the test panel may be changing angle of reflection. Solution thicker panel (change angle), different material, or angle the panel. May be some others but those are first to mind.
2) Lower freq content being attenuated via addition of test panel. Solution, add thicker panel there.

Like Jim said (again) , knowing spectrum of that reflection may shed some more light.
Panel angle was something I had in mind. Denser materials like OC703, which GIK panels are made of I believe, can actually reflect at certain frequencies and angles.

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post #10881 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 04:50 PM
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How would I angle-mount a panel? Every panel I have installed has always been flat on the wall, or at a 45-degree angle across a corner.

BTW, the filtered IR results:

- 8000 Hz 1/1 filter shows the reflection.
- 4000 Hz 1/1 does not show the reflection.

So, this means a fairly narrow surface is causing the reflection? Do you still think the 1/8 inch edge of the GIK panel frame would cause a reflection? (I don't have any material to cover the edges right now.
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post #10882 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 05:40 PM
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How would I angle-mount a panel? Every panel I have installed has always been flat on the wall, or at a 45-degree angle across a corner.

BTW, the filtered IR results:

- 8000 Hz 1/1 filter shows the reflection.
- 4000 Hz 1/1 does not show the reflection.

So, this means a fairly narrow surface is causing the reflection? Do you still think the 1/8 inch edge of the GIK panel frame would cause a reflection? (I don't have any material to cover the edges right now.
I am not for certain about this. Just seems like the most probable, especially given your filtered IR results. But also, two panels together are going to double that 1/8". Add the fabric in between and the reflective surface maybe bigger still. Where all 3 panels come together....

A rolled up cotton towel across the seam may work for our purposes. Give that a try (I am sure you have some towels)

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post #10883 of 14813 Old 08-03-2014, 08:11 PM
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Does anyone use diffusers? For example, what if I replaced the 242 panels on the back wall with diffusors? Would that be a good place for diffusion?
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post #10884 of 14813 Old 08-04-2014, 12:31 AM
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Does anyone use diffusers? For example, what if I replaced the 242 panels on the back wall with diffusors? Would that be a good place for diffusion?
How far is the seating from the rear wall? Most diffusors need room to work properly and the usual recommendation is at least 6' behind the seating.


Max
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post #10885 of 14813 Old 08-04-2014, 05:48 AM
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Does anyone use diffusers? For example, what if I replaced the 242 panels on the back wall with diffusors? Would that be a good place for diffusion?
If the spike your hunting represents the rear wall at 6.5ms, then Id say no given you typically get a -12db return off diffusers and your trying to preserve a RFZ to 20ms @ -20db.

A good place would be one where its return happens after 20ms.

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Are the panels spaced off the rear wall with an air gap behind them? I know that the air gap necessity is more for absorbing the lower frequencies, but perhaps this could be causing an unwanted reflection due to the panel not having enough breathing room behind it. I have 4" think panels that are made out if OC703, and I have them mounted with a 4" air gap behind them.
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post #10887 of 14813 Old 08-04-2014, 06:24 AM
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How far is the seating from the rear wall? Most diffusors need room to work properly and the usual recommendation is at least 6' behind the seating.


Max
Only 3', Max. So diffusion doesn't seem to be an alternative. I just need to keep experimenting.
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post #10888 of 14813 Old 08-04-2014, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post
Are the panels spaced off the rear wall with an air gap behind them? I know that the air gap necessity is more for absorbing the lower frequencies, but perhaps this could be causing an unwanted reflection due to the panel not having enough breathing room behind it. I have 4" think panels that are made out if OC703, and I have them mounted with a 4" air gap behind them.
Marty, the GIK panels have an air gap built into the way the frame is made. But no, I have not added an additional gap. Perhaps something to add to the list of things to try.
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post #10889 of 14813 Old 08-04-2014, 06:29 AM
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Jerry, if you really want to kill the rear wall reflections, I would put 12" of pink fluffy there. That probably is only 4" or 5" more real estate than your using now. Just my $.02

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post #10890 of 14813 Old 08-04-2014, 08:03 AM
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Probably would, Jim, but you know my aversion to DIY panels. Temporarily, I have left the extra panel in place on top of the GIK 242 panel, which has tamed the reflection. As soon as I understand why the 242 panel isn't doing the job, I'll figure out a permanent solution. I plan on trying to cover the frame today.

Actually, I'm feeling pretty good that I actually identified the source of the reflection. I had always assumed the back wall had been effectively treated. It just proves how difficult reflections can be, and gives me a renewed respect for the job you have done in your listening room.
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