Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 378 - AVS Forum
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post #11311 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Jerry, just a minor suggestion for improvement. When you talk about level calibration signals you should add RMS, e.g. -30dB FS RMS. The signal itself "wiggles" around that value.
Markus, is that necessary? The generator in step 8 shows "RMS Level dB FS," so when you dial up "-30" that covers it. Besides, there's no option for anything else.
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post #11312 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 12:14 AM
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I think it doesn't hurt to be as specific as possible.

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post #11313 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Hi Jim,

I switched off loopback and even tried to create severe mismatch of sample rates and bit depths but the resulting impulse responses never looked as dissimilar as what you and Jerry have shown. I'm running REW on a Mac.
Thanks for trying to recreate the problem.

Since Jerry and I both have the problem, there might be a lot of others as well, but they don't know it cause how many people did what I did to discover the inconsistency in the first place?

Perhaps after the holidays are over, John will chime back in either here or at HTS. In the meanwhile, I am going to use the 256k sweeps because they look the most like my Omnimic sweeps.

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post #11314 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Thanks for trying to recreate the problem.

Since Jerry and I both have the problem, there might be a lot of others as well, but they don't know it cause how many people did what I did to discover the inconsistency in the first place?

Perhaps after the holidays are over, John will chime back in either here or at HTS. In the meanwhile, I am going to use the 256k sweeps because they look the most like my Omnimic sweeps.
I've got a few other things to run through tonight, but if/when I get a chance, I'll give it a try. I'm not sure if Markus is using a USB mic, but if he's not, that might be difference. I have a CSL UMIK-1.
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post #11315 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 01:37 PM
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I have a couple of mics here but none of those USB mics.

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post #11316 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
I've got a few other things to run through tonight, but if/when I get a chance, I'll give it a try. I'm not sure if Markus is using a USB mic, but if he's not, that might be difference. I have a CSL UMIK-1.
I think that is the mic Jerry uses. A Dayton UMM-6 for me.

But that is what we need. More evidence.

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post #11317 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 07:11 PM
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Guys,

Wanted to ask about the audio output signal when using HDMI connected to the AVR.

Does REW send out PCM signal to the AVR?

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post #11318 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Guys,

Wanted to ask about the audio output signal when using HDMI connected to the AVR.

Does REW send out PCM signal to the AVR?
On the front of my processor it says PCM.
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post #11319 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Guys,

Wanted to ask about the audio output signal when using HDMI connected to the AVR.

Does REW send out PCM signal to the AVR?
Just curious, why do you ask? Does the type of signal make a difference?
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post #11320 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
On the front of my processor it says PCM.
Thanks Bluescale!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Just curious, why do you ask? Does the type of signal make a difference?
I'm thinking of getting one of these: http://www.minidsp.com/ht-series/nanoavr-dl to test for Dirac in-a-box.

Would like to compare Dirac to Audyssey.

My thinking is to check the frequency and timing to see what Dirac has done. So want to use REW to take the before and after Dirac REQ. The NanoAVR-DL can only accept PCM signals so wanted to check that REW outputs PCM.

Bluescale has just confirmed this.

Already got the UMIK-1 mic for REW so don't need to purchase another one from MiniDSP. Got some unanswered questions to be resolved with MiniDSP. Will most likely place an order for the NanoAVR-DL once the questions are answered satisfactorily...

Reading through the preliminary manual now.

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post #11321 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 08:10 PM
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Yet another Noob here. I have dual Rythmik 15" subs, 16x13x7.5 theater with sound treatments. Installed REW and took a quick measurement. Here is what showed. Any thoughts on what it's showing? I'm trying to read up and learn what these things mean, just thought I'd reach out for some quick assessments.
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post #11322 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
I'm thinking of getting one of these: http://www.minidsp.com/ht-series/nanoavr-dl to test for Dirac in-a-box.

Would like to compare Dirac to Audyssey.

My thinking is to check the frequency and timing to see what Dirac has done. So want to use REW to take the before and after Dirac REQ. The NanoAVR-DL can only accept PCM signals so wanted to check that REW outputs PCM.
The nanaAVR HD also only accepts PCM (this is true for all miniDSP products, isn't it?) and it's definitely designed for use with REW:

http://www.minidsp.com/applications/...n-with-nanoavr

If you go through with this, I'll be really interested in your experience. That has the potential to be a great solution for a lot of people who want Dirac, but don't want to buy a new AVR.
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post #11323 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dsteak View Post
Yet another Noob here. I have dual Rythmik 15" subs, 16x13x7.5 theater with sound treatments. Installed REW and took a quick measurement. Here is what showed. Any thoughts on what it's showing? I'm trying to read up and learn what these things mean, just thought I'd reach out for some quick assessments.
Take a look at Jerry's guide here:

Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs

It has some information on posting graphs that make for us to see what's going on. Can you repost that with no smoothing and set to show all the way to 300hz? Again, take a look at the guide on specific information how to do that if you don't know.
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post #11324 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsteak View Post
Yet another Noob here. I have dual Rythmik 15" subs, 16x13x7.5 theater with sound treatments. Installed REW and took a quick measurement. Here is what showed. Any thoughts on what it's showing? I'm trying to read up and learn what these things mean, just thought I'd reach out for some quick assessments.
I see a frequency response curve that is reasonably well-shaped down to 10Hz, with a gently upwards-sloping "house curve". I see a dip at 60Hz that might be associated with the crossover frequency, or might be caused by a room mode. I see some unexplained little color bars at the bottom--don't know what they represent.

If you have the time, re-measure the frequency range 15-300Hz (or 10-300Hz if you are showing off). Include the legend at the bottom of the graph scree when you post. Tell us what you are measuring, i.e. is this subs only, or subs+mains? If the mains are included, what is the crossover point? Are you using room correction like Audyssey? Is the graph smoothed, or unsmoothed? If smoothed, post the new measurement unsmoothed.

So, not bad, but we don't have all the information yet. Answer ALL the questions, please.
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post #11325 of 11338 Old 08-31-2014, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
... I see some unexplained little color bars at the bottom--don't know what they represent...
Calculated room nodes if you input the dimensions in the right slots.

- modal analysis setup on the EQ window
- show modal frequencies option on the main window on some displays

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post #11326 of 11338 Old Yesterday, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
I think that is the mic Jerry uses. A Dayton UMM-6 for me.

But that is what we need. More evidence.
Dayton EMM-6 mic via a usb preamp/audio device (RME Fireface 800), no loopback, IRs do not vary with length

sweep_length.png

I did notice that the input levels reported by the longer sweeps were lower than the shorter sweep. I wonder if this is related to your problem given the higher noise floor of the USB mic (and the fact that your sweeps look like they contain noise before the initial impulse)
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post #11327 of 11338 Old Yesterday, 10:03 AM
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Dayton EMM-6 mic via a usb preamp/audio device (RME Fireface 800), no loopback, IRs do not vary with length

Attachment 240041

I did notice that the input levels reported by the longer sweeps were lower than the shorter sweep. I wonder if this is related to your problem given the higher noise floor of the USB mic (and the fact that your sweeps look like they contain noise before the initial impulse)
rew 256 1m ir.jpg

Red = 1M
Blue = 256K

Its easy to see now whats happening. This unnormalized view clearly shows the 1st IR peaks to be 5-6db different. So when normalized, one graph get pushed up more than the other. Second problem is they dont track each other very well. And thirdly, that pre ringing on the red graph (1M).

Unfortunately, knowing whats happening hasnt helped in figuring out why.

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post #11328 of 11338 Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I see a frequency response curve that is reasonably well-shaped down to 10Hz, with a gently upwards-sloping "house curve". I see a dip at 60Hz that might be associated with the crossover frequency, or might be caused by a room mode. I see some unexplained little color bars at the bottom--don't know what they represent.

If you have the time, re-measure the frequency range 15-300Hz (or 10-300Hz if you are showing off). Include the legend at the bottom of the graph scree when you post. Tell us what you are measuring, i.e. is this subs only, or subs+mains? If the mains are included, what is the crossover point? Are you using room correction like Audyssey? Is the graph smoothed, or unsmoothed? If smoothed, post the new measurement unsmoothed.

So, not bad, but we don't have all the information yet. Answer ALL the questions, please.
Thanks so much for the replies. I measured twice (Audyssey ON/OFF) and updated the output. This is with the Subs only, no Mains.
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If you go back into REW, pull up that measurement, and hit to "Freq. Axis" button up in the top left, things will look more like what we expect. Right now it's showing a linear response, which doesn't do a good job of mimicking what we actually hear. Once you hit the button, it'll switch to logarithmic. You'll notice that some of the gridlines are much closer together, and the measurement increments aren't uniform blocks of 50.

Once you've done that, post the image for us.
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post #11330 of 11338 Old Yesterday, 11:53 AM
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Agreed that the graph should be displayed in log mode, nice catch. Also, I would go ahead and include the mains in the measurement. Looking at raw sub response is OK to dial in the subs, but ultimately we want to see the overall bass response, which includes the contribution of the mains. That should smooth out the response above the crossover considerably.
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post #11331 of 11338 Old Yesterday, 03:51 PM
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Speaking of the integration of mains with sub(s), just now doing all sorts of various measurements and I'm going to again move around my DTS-10 for optimal placement. Previously, I simply just looked at freq. response (sub only 10hz-300hz) but am now curious as to how all you guys do it. At each position do you look at the integration of the mains (sub+Mains w/Waterfall)? For the mains, I always just heeded common advice which included making a triad (i.e., triangular or distance apart from each other equaling the distance from MLP) but am now thinking this can be better integrated with trial and error with positioning with sub. This of course would be very time assuming with the needed audy cal. at ea. position if looking at the crossover, etc. Thanks.
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If I understand your question correctly, I measure sub only while I am finding the optimum position. Once I have the sub where it produces the best frequency response, I measure subs+mains and observe the flatness of the response in the vicinity of the crossover. The flatness can many times be improved by adjusting the delay (distance) for the sub, which alters the phase relationship between mains and sub(s). If you are also using a room correction system like Audyssey, then the room correction is run before adjusting the sub delay.
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If I understand your question correctly, I measure sub only while I am finding the optimum position. Once I have the sub where it produces the best frequency response, I measure subs+mains and observe the flatness of the response in the vicinity of the crossover. The flatness can many times be improved by adjusting the delay (distance) for the sub, which alters the phase relationship between mains and sub(s). If you are also using a room correction system like Audyssey, then the room correction is run before adjusting the sub delay.
Thanks. Yeah I was just checking to see measuring criteria for optimal sub placement. Just making sure I was sane after reading all this. It's just such a pain in the arse with this DTS 10 as it REQUIRES mega freq. messaging as does the back I just put in the Danley (Tom recommended) eq filters in my BFD and man does it look bad With all your testing, how did you go about setting your mains up as far as positioning? There are some pretty crazy equations out there after researching it (i.e., room calculation, sound stage versus freq. response, etc,). I'll post some graphs here in the future including room layout, etc. Thanks so much. Will indeed post all my graphs, room layout, etc. in near future in the spirit of learning REW.
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post #11334 of 11338 Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM
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The placement of my mains is pretty traditional. Equilateral triangle, 30 degrees to left and right speakers. Everything in the listening room is placed symmetrical--mains, subs, surround speakers. Objective is to have symmetrical reflections from both sides of the room.
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post #11335 of 11338 Old Yesterday, 05:06 PM
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Thanks. Yeah I was just checking to see measuring criteria for optimal sub placement. Just making sure I was sane after reading all this. It's just such a pain in the arse with this DTS 10 as it REQUIRES mega freq. messaging as does the back
Use REW instead of a sub crawl. The DTS 10 goes in MLP, then sweeps are taken at floor level around the room where your sub placement options are. More accurate, and a little easier on the back.

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Use REW instead of a sub crawl. The DTS 10 goes in MLP, then sweeps are taken at floor level around the room where your sub placement options are. More accurate, and a little easier on the back.
Yeah I too simply tried as best to do have equilateral symmetry. Ohh yeah, I remember reading about that clever technique years ago after having it nearly fall on me once. The only thing though is the mouth isn't at the traditional (mine included) 3' off floor MLP but I suppose it would be close enough considering. Niiice, will attempt. Thanks!!
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post #11337 of 11338 Old Yesterday, 11:15 PM
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Use REW instead of a sub crawl. The DTS 10 goes in MLP, then sweeps are taken at floor level around the room where your sub placement options are. More accurate, and a little easier on the back.
Yes, that works just fine. Just make sure the sub at the main listening position is at ear level. Putting it on the floor will produce false results.

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post #11338 of 11338 Old Today, 09:24 AM
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For those following the sweep length issue, I tried a RS SPL Meter as the mic and the issue goes away (see HTS thread for details)

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post898145

So, REW doesnt like a Dayton EMM-6 USB mic without loopback it seems.

At least progress is being made.

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