Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 382 - AVS Forum
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is a problem. I'm not sure where you read that increasing sub trim in your AVR to max was a good idea, but it's wrong and completely unnecessary since in actual use you would never have the sub trim that high, you wouldn't have any room to run your sub hot (which most people do). Besides, after you run Audyssey the trim will most certainly not be at max.
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
This is wrong, really wrong. Where are you getting this from? (I hope it wasn't me!!)
I doubt it. Of course can't find my source. Must have either imagined it or mixed it up with physical sub gain. Thank you both for setting me straight. Will remove the miniDSP for now and follow the procedure as outlined in future.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
It is strange that the L+SUB drops in SPL, but with your very unconventional techniques it's really hard to tell where the problem lies. If you would do a more "traditional" Audyssey calibration we could maybe find the gremlin.
The trouble is that XT is pretty "hands off". It just runs when a mic is plugged in. You need to run three measurements before you can do anything but click "next".

Of course Audyssey doesn't tell me anything about proper speaker or MLP positioning. I want to see how large an improvement Audyssey provides to an already (semi)optimized arrangement. However I've found myself running into issues establishing that "baseline"--in large part due to the dimensions of my room, and my gaps in understanding the concepts at hand. Nothing is more dangerous than thinking you understand something, when you don't.

Audyssey set the speaker distances correctly for L, C, R and set the sub (3ft in reality) to 10ft, which I trust as it's crossover looks much smoother than what I came up with at 90Hz manually.

I don't care to integrate the 2nd sub just yet (it's a terrible sub, but what's available to help fill nulls if need be) so I'll:

*remove the miniDSP
*reset Audyssey and temporarily disable it
*set the Sub to physical full gain (manufacturer recommended)
*set all AVR trims so MV 0 = 75dB using AVR tones, including sub
*run sweeps with only 1 HDMI channel using the same 90Hz crossover for L, sub, and L+Sub by physically powering other speakers off where applicable
*run Audyssey for 3 points (minimum)
*repeat sweeps
*pray
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
*remove the miniDSP
*reset Audyssey and temporarily disable it
*set the Sub to physical full gain (manufacturer recommended)
*set all AVR trims so MV 0 = 75dB using AVR tones, including sub
*run sweeps with only 1 HDMI channel using the same 90Hz crossover for L, sub, and L+Sub by physically powering other speakers off where applicable
*run Audyssey for 3 points (minimum)
*repeat sweeps
*pray
First step, good. Then skip all the other steps you outlined and go directly to "run Audyssey". The other steps are completely unnecessary.

Setting your sub to max gain is going to get you nothing but -12db (or whatever the max is on your AVR) in the sub trim.

Setting any of the speaker trims pre-Audyssey is a waste of time as Audyssey is going to reset them anyway.

Running sweeps pre-Audyssey is a waste of time because none of your distances or crossovers are set correctly. There is reason to do sweeps with Audyssey disabled, but that is after you have ran it and all settings are correct.

Are you certain you don't have DynEQ and DynVol? You have XT.......
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
First step, good. Then skip all the other steps you outlined and go directly to "run Audyssey". The other steps are completely unnecessary.
I disagree with this. IMV HD (if I may call you HD ) would benefit from doing this without external interference at all and then layering in the tooling (audyssey, minidsp). Yes it will take longer but it will make sure he is crystal clear on what is going on.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I disagree with this. IMV HD (if I may call you HD ) would benefit from doing this without external interference at all and then layering in the tooling (audyssey, minidsp). Yes it will take longer but it will make sure he is crystal clear on what is going on.
Well, I guess. But the part about setting the sub gain to max has got to go for sure.

What is "IMV"??
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Are you certain you don't have DynEQ and DynVol? You have XT.......
Pretty certain. No mention of them in the manual, and I've never run across them in years of ownership.

Because things like this bug me, I found where I got the miniDSP gain into my head, and yes, it was my misunderstanding/mangling of what was being discussed in this thread. I too have an SVS sub with a Sledge Amplifier STA-500D (PB-2000), so should I not set it to "0" or "max" as discussed?

You're saying Audyssey will just smack it down -12 anyway?

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Old 09-04-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, I guess. But the part about setting the sub gain to max has got to go for sure.

What is "IMV"??
In My View
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
Pretty certain. No mention of them in the manual, and I've never run across them in years of ownership.
You are correct, no DYnEQ or DynVol on your AVR.

Quote:
Because things like this bug me, I found where I got the miniDSP gain into my head, and yes, it was my misunderstanding/mangling of what was being discussed in this thread. I too have an SVS sub with a Sledge Amplifier STA-500D (PB-2000), so should I not set it to "0" or "max" as discussed?

You're saying Audyssey will just smack it down -12 anyway?
Yes, you should try maxing the gain on the sub(s) when using the MiniDSP, but not without it - doesn't work that way. With the sub gain maxed and using the MiniDSP you can adjust gains down to a reasonable range with the MiniDSP software so Audyssey will set the sub(s) at the optimum trim level. Without the MiniDSP you have to adjust the gain on the sub(s) to achieve optimum trim level.

Since I'm looking at your manual; you have Double Bass, Intellivolume and THX Subwoofer turned off, right?
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:18 PM
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more generally, you want to avoid going up and down (and then up again) with the gain structure (though ultimately if you don't have a noise problem, I don't think it makes any difference)
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
YYes, you should try maxing the gain on the sub(s) when using the MiniDSP, but not without it - doesn't work that way.
And that's when I set it that way--when I integrated the miniDSP.

Quote:
With the sub gain maxed and using the MiniDSP you can adjust gains down to a reasonable range with the MiniDSP software so Audyssey will set the sub(s) at the optimum trim level. Without the MiniDSP you have to adjust the gain on the sub(s) to achieve optimum trim level.

Since I'm looking at your manual; you have Double Bass, Intellivolume and THX Subwoofer turned off, right?
I don't believe you can enable Double Bass if you have a cross-over active, but:

No to double bass
No to intellivolume (IIRC only sets an initial volume level--that's all--nothing dynamic)
Yes to THX subwoofer, as my sub outputs flat below 30Hz (but not in my room!!! LOL)
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by hdgaming42 View Post
no to double bass
no to intellivolume (iirc only sets an initial volume level--that's all--nothing dynamic)
yes to thx subwoofer, as my sub outputs flat below 30hz (but not in my room!!! Lol)
I think for it would be wise to

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Old 09-04-2014, 03:32 PM
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Regarding what to set the speaker and sub levels to before running Audyssey, keep in mind that for the first pass, the settings don't matter that much. Set them as you described, run the 3-pos Audyssey calibration, save the results, and then look at the trim values in the AVR. If any of the trims are "maxed out", i.e. are set to their maximum values (-12 on a Denon, not sure but maybe -15 on the Onkyo), then go to that speaker (or sub), adjust the gain setting down a bit, and repeat the 3-step calibration again. Ideally, all trims should end up more in the middle of the range, i.e. +/- 5.

Once you have it so Audyssey is setting all the trims to reasonable values, the next step is to measure the output of the AVR speaker level-setting tones, which should measure close to 75dB at the MLP. If they don't, you might as well stop, because something isn't right.

Looking forward to your next round of testing.
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I think for it would be wise to

Attachment 246386
From my reading--and clearly--my reading is not absolute--the designation of "THX sub" in an AVR this old really only did two things--set a preferred crossover of 80Hz with a slightly modified slope, and enabled the optional use of BGC (which I have not enabled)

Not correct? Or you'd rather remove it at this stage just to be sure?

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Old 09-04-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
And that's when I set it that way--when I integrated the miniDSP.



I don't believe you can enable Double Bass if you have a cross-over active, but:

No to double bass
No to intellivolume (IIRC only sets an initial volume level--that's all--nothing dynamic)
Yes to THX subwoofer, as my sub outputs flat below 30Hz (but not in my room!!! LOL)
ALL processing, including THX sub should be turned off prior to running the calibration. After the calibration, you can turn any of thes back on according to your tastes. You should also leave them off during the REW measurements.
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Old 09-04-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I disagree with this. IMV HD (if I may call you HD ) would benefit from doing this without external interference at all and then layering in the tooling (audyssey, minidsp). Yes it will take longer but it will make sure he is crystal clear on what is going on.
Why yes--yes you may refer to me as "HD". Thank you for asking.

I echo your mindset. Ideally I would get all my room treatments in place before going any further than I have, but the reality is that this room needs to be semi-functional soon.

I'll report back with what I manage to accomplish tonight. Once again gang--thanks for the help!
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:30 PM
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Hi everyone,

I'm using REW for the first time and I'm having a few problems. First, here is my setup:

iMac, umik-1, Denon X4000, REW (V5.01 Beta 22)

The mac is connected to the AVR's AUX1 input via the mac's headphone output (using a 3.5mm to RCA adaptor)

Here are the issues I'm having:

1. Only extremely rarely does REW recognise that the mic is attached (and hence available for use). It seems like there is some sort of cable/connection problem as just moving the mic causes the connection to be lost. I'm using the USB cable that came with the mic.

2. To test the connection between my mac and AVR I tried playing some music. It sounded really bad - very noisy. Playing the same song via a USB stick (ie bypassing the mac completely) the same song sounds amazing - crystal clear. What is likely causing this? Is it the cable from my mac to AVR? The cable is 4-5m long.

Cheers
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Hi everyone,

I'm using REW for the first time and I'm having a few problems. First, here is my setup:

iMac, umik-1, Denon X4000, REW (V5.01 Beta 22)

The mac is connected to the AVR's AUX1 input via the mac's headphone output (using a 3.5mm to RCA adaptor)

Here are the issues I'm having:

1. Only extremely rarely does REW recognise that the mic is attached (and hence available for use). It seems like there is some sort of cable/connection problem as just moving the mic causes the connection to be lost. I'm using the USB cable that came with the mic.

2. To test the connection between my mac and AVR I tried playing some music. It sounded really bad - very noisy. Playing the same song via a USB stick (ie bypassing the mac completely) the same song sounds amazing - crystal clear. What is likely causing this? Is it the cable from my mac to AVR? The cable is 4-5m long.

Cheers
Note 2 on page 3 of the REW Guide (link in my sig) has some advice regarding running REW on a Mac. Perhaps this will be useful. Most of us are Windows users.
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Old 09-04-2014, 08:20 PM
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Note 2 on page 3 of the REW Guide (link in my sig) has some advice regarding running REW on a Mac. Perhaps this will be useful. Most of us are Windows users.
Hi,

Thanks - I've already read through that (great guide BTW)

I don't suspect the issues I'm having are mac vs Windows specific...
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Old 09-04-2014, 08:29 PM
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The two issues you mention sound like a cabling or connection problem. Try a different cable. Don't know what else to recommend.
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Old 09-04-2014, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The two issues you mention sound like a cabling or connection problem. Try a different cable. Don't know what else to recommend.
Regarding the mic not registering with REW, it currently is registering. In order to get it to work I had to apply additional force to the cable end that inserts into the mic.
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:06 PM
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Try a different USB cable for sure.
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Regarding the mic not registering with REW, it currently is registering. In order to get it to work I had to apply additional force to the cable end that inserts into the mic.
I have a UMIK-1 as well. I found that you really need to make sure the USB plugs firmly into the base of the mic. Sounds like your experience was similar.
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Try a different USB cable for sure.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have a UMIK-1 as well. I found that you really need to make sure the USB plugs firmly into the base of the mic. Sounds like your experience was similar.
Is this a common problem? I suppose I'll email CSL and see what they say...



Please find attached my first graphs. Currently I'm just trying to optimize sub placement. The graph shows 2 frequency responses with the sub in its original position (close to a side wall, roughly mid-wall) and with the sub placed in a corner. I originally didn't place the sub in the corner as I expected it would give me worse results but it looks like it gives me a smoother response. What do people think of these responses? Any feedback most welcome (I'm completely new to room optimization).

Note: the offset of the SPLs shown in the graph may or may not be correct. The test signal used was not that loud however.

Edit: the graphs are with Audyssey OFF (ie there is no EQ being used)
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:18 AM
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^

The blue FR sweep certainly looks better. It'd be important to see a waterfall also, to get an idea of decay, which is at least as important as the frequency response with a subwoofer. I the SPL shown here is correct, you may be running into noise floor issues. I know I tend to have some noise show up between 50 and 55 dB at some frequencies, and I also have a CSL UMIK-1. Can you measure again at a higher volume?
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
^

The blue FR sweep certainly looks better. It'd be important to see a waterfall also, to get an idea of decay, which is at least as important as the frequency response with a subwoofer. I the SPL shown here is correct, you may be running into noise floor issues. I know I tend to have some noise show up between 50 and 55 dB at some frequencies, and I also have a CSL UMIK-1. Can you measure again at a higher volume?
Thanks for the reply.

Attached is a graph at higher SPL - this time just of the sub in the corner (ie in the position that gives a better looking graph).

Note that REW told me I only had 1.5 dB of headroom when doing this measurement. When I tried to increase the volume further, REW gave me a clipping warning. Is this normal?
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Old 09-05-2014, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
The mac is connected to the AVR's AUX1 input via the mac's headphone output (using a 3.5mm to RCA adaptor)
If you can I would recommend the use of a digital connection rather than the analog. Does the iMac support a mini-toslink connector or has Toslink output?

The mini-toslink is what I use off my old Mac laptop and it works very well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Here are the issues I'm having:

1. Only extremely rarely does REW recognise that the mic is attached (and hence available for use).
The UMIK really does require a lot of force to get the USB cable to snap in. I had similar problems until I realized that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post

2. To test the connection between my mac and AVR I tried playing some music. It sounded really bad - very noisy. Playing the same song via a USB stick (ie bypassing the mac completely) the same song sounds amazing - crystal clear. What is likely causing this? Is it the cable from my mac to AVR? The cable is 4-5m long.
Cheers
Try toslink or mini-toslink and see if that improves things.
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Old 09-05-2014, 06:33 AM
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Thanks for the reply.

Attached is a graph at higher SPL - this time just of the sub in the corner (ie in the position that gives a better looking graph).
Your measurements aren't conforming to the guidelines for this thread. Did you review AustinJerry's guide?

There's a link to it in his signature and, IIRC, on the first page.
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Old 09-05-2014, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post

2) use HolmImpulse
Does that work with multiple subs? More specifically, multiple subs fed with one signal?
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Old 09-05-2014, 06:49 AM
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Does that work with multiple subs? More specifically, multiple subs fed with one signal?
I am not sure what you mean.
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Old 09-05-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Thanks for the reply.

Attached is a graph at higher SPL - this time just of the sub in the corner (ie in the position that gives a better looking graph).

Note that REW told me I only had 1.5 dB of headroom when doing this measurement. When I tried to increase the volume further, REW gave me a clipping warning. Is this normal?
What are your room dimensions if I might ask? The fact you got that flat a response "by just throwing it in a corner" fills me with jealous rage.

Rage? Yes, I believe that is the word.

A month of crawling around my room, building bass traps, re-testing and adding multiple levels of EQ have not got me that flat a response in my room from hell.
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Old 09-05-2014, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post

Is this a common problem? I suppose I'll email CSL and see what they say...
Look at it a different way. Because the USB connector fits snugly, there is less risk of it becoming disconnected in the middle of moving the mic stand around during measurements. So no, I don't think it is a problem once you realize that you need to press hard to make sure it is seated properly.
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