Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 389 - AVS Forum
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post #11641 of 11662 Old 09-15-2014, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Output on HDMI4 should be 10dB higher than output on HDMI1. The LFE output is 10dB hotter.
That's weird as I've never shown a 10db change when switching between output 1/2/3 and 4. I'll have to go back and double check that.

I assumed they would have accounted for that in the programming to keep all sweeps at the same SPL to make comparisons easier between the sub/mains and both.

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I've found something similar happens to me from time to time, although nut just when I'm running sweeps on the subs. I've found that if I go to preferences and change the output channel, and then click on measure, it does some sort of a reset. I don't even have to run a sweep, but going into the measurement dialog is necessary. I can then change it back to my original HDMI channel, and no issues. Hopefully that saves you a bit of time from unplugging and recalibrating needlessly.
Thanks, I'll try that.

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post #11642 of 11662 Old 09-15-2014, 03:33 PM
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The occasional output of a distorted test tone is a known issue. I have reported it on HTS, but have never received a satisfactory explanation. I do what Bluescale does--switch outputs. This usually resets the test signal to normal. Very annoying.

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post #11643 of 11662 Old 09-15-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
What you say is true, Alan. However, the point of my post was to show that applying Audyssey correction is not nearly as bad as your words imply. I did not see anything really disturbing, nor did I see evidence that Audyssey was over-boosting.

"If you want to see something really disturbing check out your distortion graph, particularly those areas where Audyssey is over-boosting."

Probably badly worded. I should have said "If you want to see something really disturbing check out your distortion graph, particularly those areas where Audyssey is over-boosting any nulls."


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post #11644 of 11662 Old 09-15-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
That's weird as I've never shown a 10db change when switching between output 1/2/3 and 4. I'll have to go back and double check that.
There's nothing to account for, as LFE is supposed to be 10dB hotter than redirected bass. Only when you're doing sweeps is the LFE signal the same as the redirected signal. This was recently explained to me as I was trying to measure an evaluate my new processor. I thought the problem was with the processor. Instead, it was with the user .

My point in mentioning this is that if HDMI1 output is identical to HDMI4 (in output SPL), then something is off somewhere.
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post #11645 of 11662 Old 09-15-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
There's nothing to account for, as LFE is supposed to be 10dB hotter than redirected bass. Only when you're doing sweeps is the LFE signal the same as the redirected signal. This was recently explained to me as I was trying to measure an evaluate my new processor. I thought the problem was with the processor. Instead, it was with the user .

My point in mentioning this is that if HDMI1 output is identical to HDMI4 (in output SPL), then something is off somewhere.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if I read you correctly; you are stating that the LFE signal is the same as the redirected when doing sweeps. If that's the case, then the 1 and 4 output should be identical in SPL. Or am I reading this wrong?

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post #11646 of 11662 Old 09-15-2014, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if I read you correctly; you are stating that the LFE signal is the same as the redirected when doing sweeps. If that's the case, then the 1 and 4 output should be identical in SPL. Or am I reading this wrong?
The LFE sweep *should* look the same (although for some reason, in your case it doesn't), but 10dB SPL higher. If everything is working the way it should, if you run a sweep of HDMI1 with all speakers by the subs turned off, and then run a sweep of HDMI4, the curve should look the same, but the output will be 10dB different.

Are you running separates? If so, and if your soundcard has stereo inputs, it would be fairly easy to measure the actual signal coming from your processor to see if something weird is happening there, of it's purely an in-room response issue.
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post #11647 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is because your subs are out of phase, by reducing the level on the one sub you are reducing the amount of cancellation to the other sub.



You need to get your subs in phase with each other before making any decisions. While playing pink noise, adjust the distance of the closer sub one foot at a time (try both directions) until you get the highest SPL at the MLP. This is much easier and accurate using REWs RTA function.
Thanks for suggestion ALAN. Today i was playing again and this time i set the distance of the closer sub (sb13 ultra) from 4,38m to 0,28 and i got rid of the dip in the 20-30 hz and got i nice boost...but the null have travelend along the path to the higher freq but i actually prefer the measurement as it looks now...this are the measurements with both front and subs playing (only audyssey engaged, no dynEQ) i guess that because the crossover is set at 80hz for all the speakers the graph would not look much different with all the speakers playing? The blue trace is the new audyssey measurement i took today, the yellow is the manipulated SW2 (sb13 ultra) distance and the red is the graph how it all looked before i run audyssey again and i set the PEQ 1 of the ultra at -8 level so i got rid of the null in the 20-30hz range...i think i like it now as far as the sub sound goes sure they shake far better than before but i also now that i have nuls...i now the measurement was taken with built in mic but i think it is still beter than what audyssey have done.any suggestions are welcome thanks
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post #11648 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommaazz View Post
Thanks for suggestion ALAN. Today i was playing again and this time i set the distance of the closer sub (sb13 ultra) from 4,38m to 0,28 and i got rid of the dip in the 20-30 hz and got i nice boost...but the null have travelend along the path to the higher freq but i actually prefer the measurement as it looks now...this are the measurements with both front and subs playing (only audyssey engaged, no dynEQ) i guess that because the crossover is set at 80hz for all the speakers the graph would not look much different with all the speakers playing? The blue trace is the new audyssey measurement i took today, the yellow is the manipulated SW2 (sb13 ultra) distance and the red is the graph how it all looked before i run audyssey again and i set the PEQ 1 of the ultra at -8 level so i got rid of the null in the 20-30hz range...i think i like it now as far as the sub sound goes sure they shake far better than before but i also now that i have nuls...i now the measurement was taken with built in mic but i think it is still beter than what audyssey have done.any suggestions are welcome thanks
Really, really hard to tell what's going on in those graphs. Could you please re-post the last one (all three measurements overlayed) using these settings:

VERTICAL = 45dB-105dB
HORIZONTAL = 15Hz-300Hz

Please use the "Capture" function in REW (camera icon in upper left hand corner) instead of taking screenshots (see page 89 of the REW Guide).

That being said, from what I can tell the RED trace looks best and it looks like your sub trim level is set way too low.

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post #11649 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 10:22 AM
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http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm#2SUBS

Interesting white paper concerning subs. Specifically aligning them in space and time, types, placement. All the good stuff.


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post #11650 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Really, really hard to tell what's going on in those graphs. Could you please re-post the last one (all three measurements overlayed) using these settings:

VERTICAL = 45dB-105dB
HORIZONTAL = 15Hz-300Hz

Please use the "Capture" function in REW (camera icon in upper left hand corner) instead of taking screenshots (see page 89 of the REW Guide).

That being said, from what I can tell the RED trace looks best and it looks like your sub trim level is set way too low.
Here it is...when it was calibrated as the purple trace shows i was missing some bass (not that heavy), but now with the red trace it sounds better...more shaking in movies...i wonder how would only sb13 show in graph...but i think i have decided to keep the sb12 too
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post #11651 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm#2SUBS

Interesting white paper concerning subs. Specifically aligning them in space and time, types, placement. All the good stuff.
Thanks for this. I hadn't yet seen the suggestion to increase the distance setting for your mains (in unison) to allow a little wiggle-room when dealing with your subs (as you can only add delay).

This paragraph also seems quite magical:

"If this is done correctly, even if the subs are behind you, you will NOT localize them; it will seem as if the bass is playing from the front of the room, where it belongs, and this is true even if the crossover frequency is as high as 120 Hz."

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post #11652 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 12:29 PM
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"it will seem as if the bass is playing from the front of the room, where it belongs"

Huh? Is this written for stereo? Even if... I read the article, and it sort of seemed like it in some ways, but still, non-localized bass shouldn't sound like it's coming from anywhere. The full phrase you quoted is self-contradicting.

I have a sub behind me, as I'm sure almost everyone here with more than one does, or at least two does, unless they sit against a wall (best avoided if possible). It would be very hard to get optimal results with two subs when one isn't behind you, but you do the best you can with the constraints you're dealt.
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post #11653 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
"it will seem as if the bass is playing from the front of the room, where it belongs"

Huh? Is this written for stereo? Even if... I read the article, and it sort of seemed like it in some ways, but still, non-localized bass shouldn't sound like it's coming from anywhere. The full phrase you quoted is self-contradicting.

I have a sub behind me, as I'm sure almost everyone here with more than one does, or at least two does, unless they sit against a wall (best avoided if possible). It would be very hard to get optimal results with two subs when one isn't behind you, but you do the best you can with the constraints you're dealt.
On the surface it does seem contradictory "you can't localize it, but it will sound localized from the front..."

I'm guessing they mean it will sound as if it is coming from the front, just as much as the back. You could be fooled into thinking it is coming from the front--thereby non-directional...

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post #11654 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 12:44 PM
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Quite contradictory, you are correct. "you can't localize it, but it will sound localized from the front..."
I have one sub behind (20-40hz) and two in front (35-65hz). The bass indeed seems to come from the front, and not the rear. Additionally, it doesn't seem to come from where the subs are located. I dont see the contradiction if what was meant, and it was as I read it, that the bass can be localized in the front of the room, but not where the bass actually emanates from.


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post #11655 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 12:45 PM
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Bass sounds are generally not pure tones, and the associated harmonics (which are localizable) are what gives "bass" sounds their location.

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post #11656 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
Bass sounds are generally not pure tones, and the associated harmonics (which are localizable) are what gives "bass" sounds their location.
I have found that pure bass tones can be localized down to 80-100hz. But I agree broadly with your claim.


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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
I have one sub behind (20-40hz) and two in front (35-65hz). The bass indeed seems to come from the front, and not the rear. Additionally, it doesn't seem to come from where the subs are located. I dont see the contradiction if what was meant, and it was as I read it, that the bass can be localized in the front of the room, but not where the bass actually emanates from.
But the ranges you describe are well below the 120Hz the article is directly referencing.

I think what is in question in the claim that dual subs set up in the fashion described become truly non-directional*(loosely defined as subs in the rear that sound like they're coming from the front?) all the way up to 120Hz. I hope that is true, as the 80Hz to 120Hz region is where I am having the most problems regarding room nodes...
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
I have one sub behind (20-40hz) and two in front (35-65hz). The bass indeed seems to come from the front, and not the rear. Additionally, it doesn't seem to come from where the subs are located. I dont see the contradiction if what was meant, and it was as I read it, that the bass can be localized in the front of the room, but not where the bass actually emanates from.
I have four subs, two in front at exactly the same distance left and right of the center line, and two in back very close to the MLP. I perceive the bass as coming from exactly in the front center of the room.

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post #11659 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 02:32 PM
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Localization of "bass"

Here, courtesy of your enemies at Stereophile, is the spectrum of a 41hz (low and open E string) lick from a nice sounding Fender Jazz Bass Guitar:



So, despite the fundamental being non-localizable, there are plenty of harmonics to assist in the identification of the direction of the sound.

The sub can be placed anywhere, the main speakers produce the harmonics and give that amorphous lump of low frequencies some character and location.

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post #11660 of 11662 Old Yesterday, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tommaazz View Post
Here it is...when it was calibrated as the purple trace shows i was missing some bass (not that heavy), but now with the red trace it sounds better...more shaking in movies...i wonder how would only sb13 show in graph...but i think i have decided to keep the sb12 too
The red trace has a huge dip between 30-40hz - not good. If it was me, I would use the purple trace and turn up the sub trim, your sub trim looks to be really low. Did you turn it up any after running Audyssey??

The reason you think the red trace sounds better is because the bass between 20-30hz is way over exagerated. If you were to use the purple trace and turn up the trim you would have a much flatter response.

Your graphs still aren't scaled right. They should be 55-105db and 15-300hz. I realize those measurements are cut off lower (160hz?) so it makes no difference on these graphs. But, you should take some new measurements and set the sweep to start at 10hz and go up to 500hz.

Oh, and no need to measure at such ear-bleeding levels. 20db above your noise floor is more than sufficient.
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Originally Posted by tommaazz View Post
Thanks for response...yes i have subeq ht..i saw this distance tweak and it seemed complicated when reading a guide. What it seems odd is that i put -8 level at 31hz and it shakes more? I dont know should i just leave at audyssey setting because i only have laptop mic and stop playing with rew because i dont know how accurate is this metod with built in mic which is not omnidirectional
I think any results you get or conclusions you draw using a built-in laptop mic are going to be hopelessly flawed.


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post #11662 of 11662 Old Today, 10:48 AM
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I think any results you get or conclusions you draw using a built-in laptop mic are going to be hopelessly flawed.
yes i totally agree with you but the fact is that when i have manipulated the distance of sb13 ultra it plays and shakes in tandem with sb12 much much better than what audyssey sets them (sb13 and sb12) and that is what the graph shows too...i know it is not perfect but i said what the hell you cant lose anything and the fact is that i have gained a lot with just the rew and laptop mic and i like the bass much better than before...i know it is not flatline but i guess i love some bumps so thanks to the rew and all of you guys to help with the basic settings of rew and stuff thanks again ...i wonder how would only sb13 ultra sound and selling my sb12 but i certainly get some more even bass across the room with both playing than with just the one sub and i am tired of measuring again and again so i have decided to leave as is and to finally enjoy my system just one more question by manipulating the distance what i am actually doing is just lowering/raising delay right?
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