Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 394 - AVS Forum
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post #11791 of 12840 Old 09-27-2014, 04:30 PM
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Hm...I think I'm going to heed Jerry's logic here. What I'm seeing is significantly different impulse reponses between my sub and my center, and I don't know how to interpret them:



Pink is the center on its own, green is the sub on its own, and orange is the combined response.

Edit: Could the impulse response look so different because I'm measuring too broad a frequency? I went back and looked at your document, and realized that you suggest +/- 20Hz from the xover. I sent 20Hz-200Hz. Obviously, that means the response of the enter and the sub are going to start at wildly different places...

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post #11792 of 12840 Old 09-27-2014, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
But no problem here either--simply start out with the physical distance, and then follow the sub distance tweak procedure to adjust the distance values to achieve flattest frequency response.

Does it have to be more difficult? Perhaps I am missing something?
I'm good at overcomplicating things at times. Thanks for the sanity check. It hadn't occurred to me that the distance tweak procedure would work for anything other than Audyssey. I guess logically, physics is physics, regardless of the EQ mechanism.
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post #11793 of 12840 Old 09-27-2014, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Hm...I think I'm going to heed Jerry's logic here. What I'm seeing is significantly different impulse reponses between my sub and my center, and I don't know how to interpret them:



Pink is the center on its own, green is the sub on its own, and orange is the combined response.

Edit: Could the impulse response look so different because I'm measuring too broad a frequency? I went back and looked at your document, and realized that you suggest +/- 20Hz from the xover. I sent 20Hz-200Hz. Obviously, that means the response of the enter and the sub are going to start at wildly different places...
Comparing uncorrected IRs from different speakers at low frequencies across a broad frequency is likely to yield confusion yes & hence the narrow IR method. Some further detail in https://www.avforums.com/threads/diy...#post-20662038
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post #11794 of 12840 Old 09-27-2014, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
I'm good at overcomplicating things at times. Thanks for the sanity check. It hadn't occurred to me that the distance tweak procedure would work for anything other than Audyssey. I guess logically, physics is physics, regardless of the EQ mechanism.
Just to make sure you have a link to the "official" write-up, here it is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Oct%202013.pdf

The procedure was authored by Craig John, working with Mark Seaton, with the final write-up by Keith Barnes. Given their credentials, the procedure has credibility, IMO. I actually pulled out the REW kit this morning and ran through the procedure once again, checking all my settings. Here is the result of the first three measurements:



Here is the combined center + subs response with 1/6 smoothing, just to demonstrate that it is really pretty flat:



We have seen several different approaches to tuning the bass response over the last several days, and each approach likely has merit, and may produce the same results. Ultimately, the objective is reasonably flat frequency response, especially in the crossover region (80Hz in my case), which I think the measurements above demonstrate.
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post #11795 of 12840 Old 09-27-2014, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Thanks for the clarification. That makes a lot more sense. I do initial measurements without crossover set, but with it's time to start building EQ, I always make sure I have the correct crossover in place, and I specify within REW that the mains are bass limited, and I mimic the crossover and slope settings within REW.
Yes, it is probably the easiest to turn on the crossovers on XMC and then measure. In this case you should mimic it in REW but not exactly and instead always target for 24dB/octave as it is always the expected/intended final acoustic performance independent of the electrical slope you set in XMC.

After the EQ is done you can do phase-matching in pairs for distance as it seems your mic doesn't let you reliably measure delays.
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post #11796 of 12840 Old 09-27-2014, 04:59 PM
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Well, to complete this thought exercise, here are the results using +/- 20Hz around the xover. It looks pretty similar to what I measured before:



Pink is the center on its own, green is the sub on its own, and orange is the combined response. Unless 3ll3d00d sees something really meaningful here, I think it's time to move on to the distance tweak methodology.
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post #11797 of 12840 Old 09-27-2014, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Well, to complete this thought exercise, here are the results using +/- 20Hz around the xover. It looks pretty similar to what I measured before:



Pink is the center on its own, green is the sub on its own, and orange is the combined response. Unless 3ll3d00d sees something really meaningful here, I think it's time to move on to the distance tweak methodology.
it is meaningful, they both rise in the same direction and to similar magnitudes with the main arriving earlier than the sub. The combined one is irrelevant here so you'd find it easier to see the similarity if you removed that combined measurement and zoomed in on the first few oscillations.

Ultimately the SPL based approach is perfectly good for all practical purposes, it just depends on how big an itch you have to scratch regarding understanding how it all fits together.
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post #11798 of 12840 Old 09-28-2014, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
The time lock establishes a timing reference, so to get time-synchronized measurements, they need to be relative to the same reference (assuming it works at all). So you might set the reference multiple times, but each time it should be done with the same speaker as reference.

Edit: I agree with Jerry that this is an over-complication. As long as the delay is close enough so that there's not an error of one or more wavelengths at the crossover frequency, adjusting delay using a frequency-domain criterion should be fine.
Exactly. The real intent of aligning subwoofer-speaker impulse responses is to get you within 1 period/wavelength to know where you are adjusting from. You can typically get plenty close with some distance measurements or knowing if any DSP you inserted has a long delay. Most are less than 2ms, and will never be enough to push you out by 1 period around 80Hz which is ~12.5ms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Just to make sure you have a link to the "official" write-up, here it is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Oct%202013.pdf

The procedure was authored by Craig John, working with Mark Seaton, with the final write-up by Keith Barnes. Given their credentials, the procedure has credibility, IMO. I actually pulled out the REW kit this morning and ran through the procedure once again, checking all my settings. Here is the result of the first three measurements:



Here is the combined center + subs response with 1/6 smoothing, just to demonstrate that it is really pretty flat:



We have seen several different approaches to tuning the bass response over the last several days, and each approach likely has merit, and may produce the same results. Ultimately, the objective is reasonably flat frequency response, especially in the crossover region (80Hz in my case), which I think the measurements above demonstrate.
Very good example. It might be useful to also show guys what happens if you're 3-4ms off either direction. In the next week I'll be condensing the work I had posted in the thread about thebland's subwoofer install before and after using Dirac room correction. I don't have quite as many measurements in the front/rear rows as we were a little pressed for time, but there is plenty there. Of course most of those measurements deal with blending the two subwoofer locations before blending with the mains.

To summarize some of my thoughts and experience, here's my suggestion for most attacking their system with REW:

  1. Take a subwoofer only measurement in your first subwoofer location while noting signal levels to the subwoofer and volume setting.
  2. Do NOT change any signal levels and start moving the subwoofer to any other possible locations saving a measurement at each location. The response should be louder or softer from different locations and you want to see this.
  3. Choose the location with the balance of fewest dips and most efficiency across the subwoofer range.
  4. If you have more than 1 subwoofer, pick locations that compliment eachother where dips do not overlap.
  5. With multiple subwoofers overlay individual responses and then measure both together driven at the same level to see how they sum. Maximum summation of 2 equal sources is +6dB. Unless there is a big peak, the goal is to get the sum to be +0-6dB and not negative. Moving the sub or adding delay to the closer sub is my preferred way to make this adjustment.
  6. If manually EQ'ing, now apply EQ to the subwoofer alone while also watching for peaks out to 120-200Hz that go above the target or above flat flat if no HP is in the measurement.
  7. Now run any auto-EQ/room correction.
  8. Measure the subwoofer alone and center channel alone. Then the combination of the 2 as shown in AustinJerry's post above.
  9. Make adjustments to the subwoofer distance setting, most often adding to the physically measured distance at 0-8ms.
  10. Choose the smoothest interaction and adjust the crossovers up or down if you see room for improvement.
  11. If you have separate EQ on the subwoofer you can sometimes improve a lumpy/peaky summation by adding a notch to the subwoofer around the crossover range. The benefit to dialog and music balance far outweighs a small dip to the LFE channel.
  12. Next compare the interaction with the left & right speakers making crossover setting and delay adjustments to get a best fit for both.
  13. The more you listen to movies & surround concerts, the more you should prioritize the center channel vs. left/right.
  14. Now measure what happens when you increase the subwoofer level by 3,6 and 9dB to understand what happens when raising the sub level.
  15. Do some listening and adjust the subwoofer level and/or shape to what you are after, and then re-measure subwoofer-center interaction to insure any ramping up in response you add is as smooth as practical.
  16. Enjoy!

There have been many times when people have asked "what does Mark do that an auto-EQ system or typical enthusiast can't?" when they hear people raving about the results after I get into setting up or adjusting a system for 3-12 hours. My answer is that anyone COULD do it, very few do. Few will take the time to gather all the measurements and learn how to manipulate what they see. I encourage more to be some of the few.

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post #11799 of 12840 Old 09-28-2014, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
To summarize some of my thoughts and experience, here's my suggestion for most attacking their system with REW:
Attn: Jerry:
This looks like a good cut a paste for the "Guide," with Mark's permission, of course.
Thanks for sharing your expertise, Mark.

Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #11800 of 12840 Old 09-28-2014, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Attn: Jerry:
This looks like a good cut a paste for the "Guide," with Mark's permission, of course.
Thanks for sharing your expertise, Mark.
I agree that Mark's post is very useful, thanks.
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post #11801 of 12840 Old 09-28-2014, 09:27 PM
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A couple of dumb questions for the REW experts - apologies in advance for my inexperience and lack of patience with slogging through the last 394 pages

When I ran REW today, my initial plan was to use ASIO for the output and my UMIK-1 for the input. Unfortunately, REW didn't appear to accept the UMIK-1 as an input unless the Java drivers were selected. I'm sure this has likely been covered elsewhere. Here's what I did:

Attach HDMI to computer, ensure HDMI audio was enabled, reboot machine.
In the ASIO Control Panel, ensure that the Intel driver was selected.
Attach the UMIK-1, select the appropriate calibration file.

Unfortunately, I can't apparently select the UMIK as an input as all REW shows with the ASIO driver selected is "HD Audio Mic Input 1" and 2.

I was successfully able to run some sweeps using the Java driver - unfortunately, I can't recall now whether I could select the specific channel or not - I ran some subwoofer sweeps and that leads me to my second question:

I've attached the sweep in question - one of the things I noticed in the output was that a phase offset was included and that REW includes information about the Phase of the signal - if I select the phase at my crossover, it shows a phase of -92 degrees. Does that indicate that the Sub is 90 degrees out of phase with the center and that I should manually correct on the phase control on my sub?

Thanks in advance,

Mike
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post #11802 of 12840 Old 09-28-2014, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
A couple of dumb questions for the REW experts - apologies in advance for my inexperience and lack of patience with slogging through the last 394 pages

When I ran REW today, my initial plan was to use ASIO for the output and my UMIK-1 for the input. Unfortunately, REW didn't appear to accept the UMIK-1 as an input unless the Java drivers were selected. I'm sure this has likely been covered elsewhere. Here's what I did:

Attach HDMI to computer, ensure HDMI audio was enabled, reboot machine.
In the ASIO Control Panel, ensure that the Intel driver was selected.
Attach the UMIK-1, select the appropriate calibration file.

Unfortunately, I can't apparently select the UMIK as an input as all REW shows with the ASIO driver selected is "HD Audio Mic Input 1" and 2.

I was successfully able to run some sweeps using the Java driver - unfortunately, I can't recall now whether I could select the specific channel or not - I ran some subwoofer sweeps and that leads me to my second question:

I've attached the sweep in question - one of the things I noticed in the output was that a phase offset was included and that REW includes information about the Phase of the signal - if I select the phase at my crossover, it shows a phase of -92 degrees. Does that indicate that the Sub is 90 degrees out of phase with the center and that I should manually correct on the phase control on my sub?

Thanks in advance,

Mike
You will have to enable the UMIK-1 in the ASIO4ALL control panel in order for it to be selectable in REW. Then close and relaunch REW.
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post #11803 of 12840 Old 09-28-2014, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
A couple of dumb questions for the REW experts - apologies in advance for my inexperience and lack of patience with slogging through the last 394 pages

When I ran REW today, my initial plan was to use ASIO for the output and my UMIK-1 for the input. Unfortunately, REW didn't appear to accept the UMIK-1 as an input unless the Java drivers were selected. I'm sure this has likely been covered elsewhere. Here's what I did:

Attach HDMI to computer, ensure HDMI audio was enabled, reboot machine.
In the ASIO Control Panel, ensure that the Intel driver was selected.
Attach the UMIK-1, select the appropriate calibration file.

Unfortunately, I can't apparently select the UMIK as an input as all REW shows with the ASIO driver selected is "HD Audio Mic Input 1" and 2.

I was successfully able to run some sweeps using the Java driver - unfortunately, I can't recall now whether I could select the specific channel or not - I ran some subwoofer sweeps and that leads me to my second question:

I've attached the sweep in question - one of the things I noticed in the output was that a phase offset was included and that REW includes information about the Phase of the signal - if I select the phase at my crossover, it shows a phase of -92 degrees. Does that indicate that the Sub is 90 degrees out of phase with the center and that I should manually correct on the phase control on my sub?

Thanks in advance,

Mike
Make sure the mic is plugged in before you start REW. Check the Windows audio input device to make sure the mic is recognized. Launch REW, and choose ASIO. If mic does not appear, exit and re-start REW. If the mic is still not there, blame the ASIO driver, which is beta software.

The sweep you included is not the correct sweep. At the bottom of the screen in the Legend, unselect "Phase" and select the first box, which should show the proper measurement graph. Or better yet, click the "All SPL" tab at the top. Forget the phase stuff.
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post #11804 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 01:05 AM
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As I mentioned in a post earlier, I've been meaning to pull a reset in my theater room. By reset, really all I meant was that I needed to spend some time really figuring out the best place to put my sub. My room is fairly small and fairly crowded. Because of that, there are only a few places for me to conveniently locate the sub. I'd shuffled my sub around in the three or four convenient spots, and found what seemed to be best. Each location had issues, but I finally ended up with a spot in the back of the room behind the main listening position. After applying EQ, this is what I ended up with:





It took 9 filters to get this curve, and obviously there's a huge suckout at 45Hz and 55Hz, which is such an important frequency range. Still, it was the best I could find, and overall, it resulted in a fairly pleasing sound. Plus, my 15 inch subs are heavy, and I didn't want to try getting it into any of the more difficult spots in the room just to see how things measured.

Today I decided to get serious about this. As I said, I only have a few convenient locations in my small room. However, it's a dedicated room, so I have the ability to move things around a little if necessary. I'd tried to sub-crawl perviously, but I could never really tell what sounded the best. Today I set my sub my main listening position, and decided to use the mic and sweep signals rather than my ear to find the best spot. All in all, I took 23 different measurements in the room, and, as is typical with these sorts of things, found that the best location was also one of the least convenient spots in my room.

After a bunch of cursing, shoving, lifting, and more cursing, followed by some light EQ, here's my current measured, in room response:





What's really great about this is that I was able to go from 9 filters down to 4, and I have a better response curve and a better waterfall.

The moral of this story? Take some time to actually measure what's going on. Take more measurements than seems reasonable. Keep banging away at it until the lightbulb goes off, and things come together. As Mark said in his post, it takes some time and requires some effort, but the end result is worth it. I always thought the bass response in my room was ugly. Turns out, it's only ugly if the sub's in the wrong place .

Anyway...sorry for the long rambling post. I'm just really excited about these results.
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post #11805 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 06:20 AM
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That is a pretty good response curve now. When listening, can you hear the difference?

On your waterfalls, can you shoot for a higher measurement level when you measure next time? The graph can tell a little more if there is 40 dB from the measurement down to the 50 DB noise floor. How does the spectrogram look?

I could've agree more that finding the best response always takes a lot of work. I'm sure I could find some marginal improvement, but when it starts to get into unwelcome compromises in the room layout, there are tough choices to be made.
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post #11806 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 06:31 AM
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@Bluescale: Also, it appears as though you have a crossover engaged on the sub (maybe 80Hz)? You might want to raise this (or bypass if that's an option) to see the full capability of your sub.
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post #11807 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
The moral of this story? Take some time to actually measure what's going on. Take more measurements than seems reasonable. Keep banging away at it until the lightbulb goes off, and things come together. As Mark said in his post, it takes some time and requires some effort, but the end result is worth it. I always thought the bass response in my room was ugly. Turns out, it's only ugly if the sub's in the wrong place.
I'm curious where your sub ended up in relation to your MLP...
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post #11808 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Attn: Jerry:
This looks like a good cut a paste for the "Guide," with Mark's permission, of course.
Thanks for sharing your expertise, Mark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I agree that Mark's post is very useful, thanks.
Of course use that in any public guide you like. Maybe preface it with:

Consider this an overview of the approach, process and goals. Each system will have different steps based on the flexibility available.

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post #11809 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
@Bluescale: Also, it appears as though you have a crossover engaged on the sub (maybe 80Hz)? You might want to raise this (or bypass if that's an option) to see the full capability of your sub.
I also took measurements of the LFE channel directly, to see what it looks like without the xover engaged. It looks pretty good throughout.

The does bring up an interesting question...when building/applying filters, do you guys eq the full range response of the sub, or the response with the xover engaged? I've been doing everything with the XO in mind. Would I be better served to EQ full range?
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post #11810 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
That is a pretty good response curve now. When listening, can you hear the difference?
I can indeed. Before I had good low end power (below 40Hz), and good upper bass, but I could certainly perceive volume changes as bass transitioned through different frequencies. Now things are smooth and restrained.

I have a little less tactile response now than I did previously. In my old location, the sub was right behind me, probably about a foot back. Now it's about 11 feet away. I'm not getting as much transference into the couch. However, it feels like there's more overall power in the actual air (and therefore in my chest). My guess is that's due to better slam around 50Hz. Before I could tell the sub was right behind me. It felt nice to have it rumble and shake me, but I knew exactly where it was. Now the bass is just there, without any distinct point of origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
On your waterfalls, can you shoot for a higher measurement level when you measure next time? The graph can tell a little more if there is 40 dB from the measurement down to the 50 DB noise floor. How does the spectrogram look?
If I get a chance I'll do this today. I don't have the mdat file right now to take a look at the spectrogram. I always forget about that chart.

Last edited by Bluescale; 09-29-2014 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Corrected distance
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post #11811 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
I'm curious where your sub ended up in relation to your MLP...
I went from right behind my seat to the front of the room between my main speakers. It's not centered on the front wall, but rather about a 3rd of the way down the wall.
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post #11812 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 10:43 AM
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Thanks for the assist guys - I've got the UMIK-1 showing up in REW when using the ASIO driver. I'll see if I can get some time later today to make a couple more runs at this. It's always a challenge finding time to do these measurements when nobody's home!
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post #11813 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
The does bring up an interesting question...when building/applying filters, do you guys eq the full range response of the sub, or the response with the xover engaged? I've been doing everything with the XO in mind. Would I be better served to EQ full range?
I would use the full range measurement as an input into XO selection & then EQ to the target curve (which includes the low pass filter)
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post #11814 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 12:24 PM
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Another swipe at it - it was interesting seeing the differences in the FR as I made 1 ft adjustments to the sub distance! Here's a pic of my FR after all the adjustments. Getting the PEQ adjustments for REW to match up with those available with the Yamaha is difficult, but I did what I could!
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post #11815 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Another swipe at it - it was interesting seeing the differences in the FR as I made 1 ft adjustments to the sub distance! Here's a pic of my FR after all the adjustments. Getting the PEQ adjustments for REW to match up with those available with the Yamaha is difficult, but I did what I could!
Can you adjust the scale (maybe 40dB to 110 dB) so we get 5dB increments? You've got a house curve that drops you 25dB between 40Hz and 20kHz. That's pretty aggressive. I'm not sure it's wrong, but it's quite aggressive.
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post #11816 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 01:10 PM
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Just fyi, this wasn't a full range sweep. Just 20-200hz and was only the center and sub. Did I set it up wrong?
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post #11817 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Just fyi, this wasn't a full range sweep. Just 20-200hz and was only the center and sub. Did I set it up wrong?
I don't think the measurement is wrong. According to our convention, we adjust the vertical scale so that it shows 5dB increments, rather than 10dB like in yours. Try a vertical scale 50-100dB. Also, that graph looks pretty smooth. Always present bass measurements with No Smoothing. Try reposting the measurement with these guidelines, please.
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post #11818 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 01:45 PM
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I don't think the measurement is wrong. According to our convention, we adjust the vertical scale so that it shows 5dB increments, rather than 10dB like in yours. Try a vertical scale 50-100dB. Also, that graph looks pretty smooth. Always present bass measurements with No Smoothing. Try reposting the measurement with these guidelines, please.
Thanks Jerry -

Here's an updated graph - couldn't discern how to change the scale to 5dB. The data file is too large to attach, so my thought of adding it went out the window.

Edit: figured it out - replacing attachment
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post #11819 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Just fyi, this wasn't a full range sweep. Just 20-200hz and was only the center and sub. Did I set it up wrong?
I'm sorry...because it was smoothed, I just assumed it was a full range sweep. I should have read more carefully. I'd like to hear from the more experienced folks here, but my thought is a 20dB difference between 40Hz and 200Hz is too great. If it was just your sub, I'd figure it was rolling off, but since this is center and sub, I don't think it should drop off that much. Again, I'll defer to the knowledge of the more experienced people in this thread.

Do you have a house curve in place?
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post #11820 of 12840 Old 09-29-2014, 01:54 PM
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Do you have a house curve in place?
No - these are some of my very first REW runs and I haven't figured out the House Curve yet.
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