Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 396 - AVS Forum
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post #11851 of 11877 Old 09-29-2014, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Sigh -

well, I may have jumped the gun here - after reviewing the sweeps I did during the testing, especially considering the difference in the output levels for my REW response curves, I'm guessing that I changed the AV volume prior to my first sub test, but after I'd checked the center channel. I'll see if I can get enough quiet time in the house to do another test later this week and make sure my setup is consistent. Planned settings are:

Select HDMI Ch. 3 ONLY, switching off or unplugging where necessary for testing
Set AV receiver to 'Straight' (which disables any processing)

One question: I thought I read somewhere that there was some discussion about whether Audyssey (in my case YPAO) should be enabled, particularly if you're planning on USING it during your normal listening sessions. I'll undoubtedly be using YPAO - should I leave it enabled, or shut it off?

Please let me know if you see anything else I've missed - I'm a bit confused at this point.

Thx,

Mike
Mike, if your objective is to measure the bass response in the room, YPAO should be turned on. If you are going through the sub distance tweak, YPAO should be on. The only time YPAO should be off is if you are experimenting with different sub placement options, because as soon as you move the sub or a speaker, the current YPAO calibration is no longer valid. Make sense?

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post #11852 of 11877 Old 09-29-2014, 08:15 PM
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Well, whether you measured 15-200 or 15-300 is not an issue. What had me concerned is that you gave us the impression that you had not properly calibrated the mic. And then you asked if there was a step-by-step guide, a question that did not make much sense if you had been using the guide.

Not to worry, just ask questions here as they arise.
In retrospect, I believe the area that I overlooked and got confused about was the SPL meter calibration, not the mic calibration. After reviewing your documentation, it reminded me of the error message and the fact it was no longer necessary.
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post #11853 of 11877 Old 09-29-2014, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Mike, if your objective is to measure the bass response in the room, YPAO should be turned on. If you are going through the sub distance tweak, YPAO should be on. The only time YPAO should be off is if you are experimenting with different sub placement options, because as soon as you move the sub or a speaker, the current YPAO calibration is no longer valid. Make sense?
Perfectly clear, thanks Jerry
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post #11854 of 11877 Old 09-29-2014, 11:06 PM
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In retrospect, I believe the area that I overlooked and got confused about was the SPL meter calibration, not the mic calibration. After reviewing your documentation, it reminded me of the error message and the fact it was no longer necessary.
Mike,

Mark Seaton (who helped come up with the sub distance tweak idea) made some recommendations in post number 11,798 here: Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs

I'm trying to understand his write-up and see what needs to be done. If moving the subs around is a pain, Bluescale placed the sub at the MLP (believe the driver was near ear height?) then move the mic to various locations and carried out measurements. Based on the measured results, Bluescale placed the sub in the best location. I think this is a much better way to determine where the optimum position of the sub should be. Takes care of steps 1 to 3 in Mark's post.

Having the sub in the right location before applying EQ seems to be the way to go (step 6 and 7 in Mark's post) - I did it the other way around and wondering why the response wasn't what I'm expecting. The sub location was mainly set due to WAF, but in the back of my mind, I'm wanting to know where the best location of the sub should be?

The other thing when engaging YPAO with the sub distance tweak, what other YPAO settings need to be engaged/dis-engaged? There are settings for tone control, YPAO volume, adaptive DRC, Extra Bass as well as various surround modes. Sorry, I don't know much about YPAO and thinking how does these setting affect the measurements.

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post #11855 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 12:28 AM
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If moving the subs around is a pain, Bluescale placed the sub at the MLP (believe the driver was near ear height?) then move the mic to various locations and carried out measurements.
The sub needed to be at ear height, and the mic needed to be at driver height. One of the reasons I'd avoided doing this previously (other than the fact that I didn't want to pick up 100lb sub and put it in my chair) is because it's a downward firing sub, and I thought the driver would need to fire downward. Markus confirmed that the orientation of the driver didn't matter too much, the height was the biggest concern). The end results show this to be true.
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post #11856 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 12:40 AM
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I had the chance to measure today at a much higher level to evaluate what it looks like further about the noise floor:


Frequency Response:



Waterfall:



Spectro:



Obviously, at the higher SPL it's not quite as pretty a waterfall, but I'm pretty happy with it overall. Any thoughts, or anything else I need to look at?

I did some quick checks to verify the crossover was set correctly, and things look pretty good. I'll spend some time over the next few days making sure it blends seamlessly with the rest of my speakers.
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post #11857 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 06:37 AM
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FR looks very good. The waterfall and spectrogram should be taken with subs+center, or subs+left+right, because the mains may add bass resonance.

Seeing a measurement with the mains as well would be interesting, because it would reveal how well the splice at the crossover is, which is important.

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post #11858 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 06:59 AM
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FR looks very good.
Oh, come on. After all that work, I think he deserves a tremendous round of applause.
It looks GREAT.


Okay, now get back to work.

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post #11859 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 07:11 AM
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Oh, come on. After all that work, I think he deserves a tremendous round of applause.
It looks GREAT.


Okay, now get back to work.
I am withholding superlatives until we see how Dirac affects the overall response...
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post #11860 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 07:22 AM
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In the meantime, I will applaud HIS efforts (and results), not Dirac's.
Who knows, he may not bother with Dirac at all.
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post #11861 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
The sub needed to be at ear height, and the mic needed to be at driver height. One of the reasons I'd avoided doing this previously (other than the fact that I didn't want to pick up 100lb sub and put it in my chair) is because it's a downward firing sub, and I thought the driver would need to fire downward. Markus confirmed that the orientation of the driver didn't matter too much, the height was the biggest concern). The end results show this to be true.
My God, man?! I'm guessing you didn't put that sub on top of a end-table on your chair...how did you get 100# of sub at ear height when it was down firing?!? I'm guessing it wasn't a case of "here, honey...hold this!"
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post #11862 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
FR looks very good. The waterfall and spectrogram should be taken with subs+center, or subs+left+right, because the mains may add bass resonance.

Seeing a measurement with the mains as well would be interesting, because it would reveal how well the splice at the crossover is, which is important.
For a Subs+Left+Right, you'd select HDMI Ch.1 and Ch.2 in ASIO, is that correct? Just making sure for when I want to run the same tests.
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post #11863 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 08:18 AM
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For a Subs+Left+Right, you'd select HDMI Ch.1 and Ch.2 in ASIO, is that correct? Just making sure for when I want to run the same tests.
Yep.
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post #11864 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 08:27 AM
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My God, man?! I'm guessing you didn't put that sub on top of a end-table on your chair...how did you get 100# of sub at ear height when it was down firing?!? I'm guessing it wasn't a case of "here, honey...hold this!"
Funny you should say that...the conversation with my wife started off with, "Dear, I need your help with something pretty annoying..." All we did was put the sub upside down (i,e. firing toward the ceiling rather than the floor) in my seat on the couch. Because the sub is the size of a mini-fridge, the driver was right at about ear height. The center of the driver was about a foot forward from where my ears would normally be, but it was close enough to give me a good ballpark estimate.

Fortunately for me, my wife's a trooper. She's gone well beyond any reasonable standard of tolerance for my measuring and remeasuring over the last two months. Only a few times has she felt it necessary to remind me that perhaps we should listen to the system that night rather than just measure it .
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post #11865 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 08:31 AM
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Fortunately for me, my wife's a trooper. She's gone well beyond any reasonable standard of tolerance for my measuring and remeasuring over the last two months. Only a few times has she felt it necessary to remind me that perhaps we should listen to the system that night rather than just measure it .
Definitely a keeper!
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Very creative solution, Bluescale! I wouldn't have thought of turning it upside down, but that would be very effective!
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FR looks very good. The waterfall and spectrogram should be taken with subs+center, or subs+left+right, because the mains may add bass resonance.

Seeing a measurement with the mains as well would be interesting, because it would reveal how well the splice at the crossover is, which is important.
Yeah, I'm going to do some measurements on that hopefully tonight.
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post #11868 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 03:24 PM
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OK guys, what would you do?

I've been messing with sub placement for what seem like forever. See this thread if you want to know the details.

Anyways, I've basically narrowed it down to 2 different configurations:

- 2 up front / 2 in back
- all 4 up front / 2 stacks of 2

This is with 4 XS15s (original, non-SE).

Here's the measurements:



Here's the waterfall comparison:





Green is front/back, red is stacked up front. As you can see, I'm getting much better extension with all 4 up front (+20db at 10hz!), but I have a huge suck-out from 55-67hz. I prefer the sound with all 4 up front, but seat-to-seat variance suffers...heck, if I just lean forward in my chair the response changes significantly. That being said, I rarely move around when watching a movie or doing critical music listening...and my wife couldn't care less. It could just be in my head, but I swear I miss that narrow band where the null is....it is pretty narrow though...prolly in my head.

Oh, and when I have all 4 up front, I only have to run the subs 4db hot. When they are in the rear I bump them up 7db.

I want to get a couple more subs to put in the back of the room fill in that null and smooth across seats, but until funds become available....which set up would you want to live with?? Do you think upgrading all 4 to SE would be worthwhile or no?

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post #11869 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 03:37 PM
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Above 25Hz, green is a clear winner. You may be impressed by the extension below 25Hz shown by red, but what source content do you have that extends that low? If you favor music, forget below 25Hz and opt for the smoothest response. If you favor shoot-em-up action flics, pick a few scenes with big explosions (WOTW, Hurtlocker, etc.) and see if the quality of the explosions suffer. I'll bet you will not be able to hear the difference.

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post #11870 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 03:48 PM
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Red is the obvious winner for all content except for that 60Hz dip but that 60Hz only lasts ~100ms (difficult to tell from the graphs) and is only maybe 5Hz wide at the point it dives beneath a -5dB dip. Frankly a dip like that can be unavoidable with a single sub setup and still sound great so, if it were me, I would live with red for a while and see how you get on. I would then start tweaking to see whether I could find some configuration that deploys one sub elsewhere in the room purely to address that dip.

I have lived with setups that have that sort of extension difference and the difference is large. I wouldn't go back to a high 20s rolloff unless I really had no choice (for both music and films).

You now have 2 polar opposite views of course

The other thing you could do is get speclab running and see whether you can see the difference that null makes with normal program material. I reckon you won't notice it so much.
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post #11871 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 03:57 PM
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You guys sound like the voices in my head - 2 completely opposite opinions!

Thanks for the input, it's appreciated!

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post #11872 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 04:08 PM
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Full disclosure--I design my audio environment for the reproduction of music. I am not a big fan of action movies with big explosion sound effects. I don't care if my home vibrates on its foundation. I want clear, tight bass on musical instruments, which is why I am not overly concerned with flat response below 20Hz. HST, my four ULS-15's are flat to 15Hz, which is as low as I measure.

Sure, you are going to get different opinions, and I certainly respect the advice presented here. However, I think you need to set your objectives, and assess your results based on whether your objectives are being met.
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It is ultimately preference so your ears do need to rule at this point. To give an example, I currently run an ever so slight lf rise for music (+0.7dB from 40-20Hz) because this is a more effective way in my setup to smooth a hard to tame peak centred on 40.7Hz. However for films I run a larger curve of +3dB from 120 to 20. If I use the film curve on music then it really negatively impacts mid bass clarity and detail. For some films, the added heft is really worth it (and I yet may refine that by genre). Point being all of these look good on paper, only my ears can really discriminate to determine preference.
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post #11874 of 11877 Old Yesterday, 07:03 PM
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....which set up would you want to live with??
I would go with the green because of that excellent waterfall. The beating effect that bass resonance has really detracts from my enjoyment of music and movies.
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OK guys, what would you do?
A lot of movies are filtered below 30Hz. That said, that's A LOT of bass to give up. On the other hand, I don't see how it's possible that you could not notice a 20Hz wide, 20dB gash in your frequency response (I know it's not 20dB down the whole way, but you get my point). Is there really no other placement option? If not, I would go with the extension if the downward spike isn't causing you a whole lot of problems.
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A lot of movies are filtered below 30Hz. That said, that's A LOT of bass to give up.
Aren't these statements contradictory? If there is nothing below 30Hz, what are you "giving up"? A significant dip at 60Hz, on the other hand, is in a pretty important part of the frequency range.

I agree that the best solution would be to get rid of the 60Hz dip AND preserve the bass extension, but evidently that isn't as easy as it sounds.

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Aren't these statements contradictory? If there is nothing below 30Hz, what are you "giving up"? A significant dip at 60Hz, on the other hand, is in a pretty important part of the frequency range.
A lot of movies are filtered, but certainly not all movies are filtered.
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