Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 400 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11971 of 15803 Old 10-07-2014, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gskinusa View Post
Just for me to understand. What you are asking is for me to remove one sub from the equation and with just the other sub test it by itself and then Left only and then sub and speaker combined.

I have the 2 subs and the individual speakers (LCRs) but not just one sub and the LCRs. I am attaching it here.

L+Subs - Pink
R+Subs - Gold
C+Subs - Blue

Please let me know.
-Sen
Your response is pretty consistent across the mains. I think measuring each sub independently and then the combined response (subs only, no mains) will tell us more about what's going on below the XO. Temporarily raise the XO so we see the full range of your sub output (e.g. 200Hz).

Last edited by jkasanic; 10-07-2014 at 06:25 PM.
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post #11972 of 15803 Old 10-07-2014, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
Your response is pretty consistent across the mains. I think measuring each sub independently and then the combined response (subs only, no mains) will tell us more about what's going on below the XO. Temporarily raise the XO so we see the full range of your sub output (e.g. 200Hz).
Got it. Will work on that and get back soon.
-Sen
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post #11973 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 05:50 PM
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Adding sub EQ to Audyssey pre-pro's

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Thanks dood, that's exactly what I thought of earlier. Yes, I had all 4 subs running when I ran Audyssey. Tonight I will set the initial distance with just the 2 front subs.
Here's how Audyssey explains EQ on subs using their own outboard sub EQ specific solution:

http://www.svsound.com/aseq_1_operat...1_1_lowres.pdf

I have 4 subs and two AS-EQ1's. At bass frequencies the interaction of this many drivers in a room is "complex".

I've been using REW measurements and Pachyderm which is software for acoustical simulatation.

You have to determine where to place your subs, in my case using pachyderm, first and then apply Audyssey correction. There is no way Audyssey can brute force correct sub EQ.
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post #11974 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by aufVidyZen View Post
Here's how Audyssey explains EQ on subs using their own outboard sub EQ specific solution:

http://www.svsound.com/aseq_1_operat...1_1_lowres.pdf

I have 4 subs and two AS-EQ1's. At bass frequencies the interaction of this many drivers in a room is "complex".

I've been using REW measurements and Pachyderm which is software for acoustical simulatation.

You have to determine where to place your subs, in my case using pachyderm, first and then apply Audyssey correction. There is no way Audyssey can brute force correct sub EQ.
I used to own an AS-EQ1, so I am very familiar with how they work. Just curious, how do you get two AS-EQ1's to work together in the same system? I assume you have two subs on each unit? When you run the calibration for one AS-EQ1, what is happening to the other two subs and AS-EQ1? Ultimately, you would need to calibrate all four subs playing at the same time. How do you do that?

I also have four subs, but have an AVR which has SubEQ HT. I have positioned two pairs of subs to be equidistant from the MLP, and placed them on the two sub output channels so that Audyssey sees them as "two" subs. I can't see how something similar would be done with two AS-EQ1's which are completely unaware of each other.

By the way, do you have measurements of the bass response which you could share with us?
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post #11975 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I used to own an AS-EQ1, so I am very familiar with how they work. Just curious, how do you get two AS-EQ1's to work together in the same system? I assume you have two subs on each unit? When you run the calibration for one AS-EQ1, what is happening to the other two subs and AS-EQ1? Ultimately, you would need to calibrate all four subs playing at the same time. How do you do that?

I also have four subs, but have an AVR which has SubEQ HT. I have positioned two pairs of subs to be equidistant from the MLP, and placed them on the two sub output channels so that Audyssey sees them as "two" subs. I can't see how something similar would be done with two AS-EQ1's which are completely unaware of each other.

By the way, do you have measurements of the bass response which you could share with us?
I also have four subs, but have an AVR which has SubEQ HT. I have positioned two pairs of subs to be equidistant from the MLP, and placed them on the two sub output channels so that Audyssey sees them as "two" subs. I can't see how something similar would be done with two AS-EQ1's which are completely unaware of each other.


I have marantz pre-pro with two sub outputs. I set these up to use the subwoofer pre-out to the Sub A input on each AS-EQ1 which splits the signal to two EQ'd subs.

The AS-EQ1 can "do the math" for 2 sub's but not for four. It's not realistic to think that Audyssey can compensate for the room modes for 2 subs, much less 4.

So I used pachyderm to "visualize" the room modes of a single sub. The software only handles one radiator for each simulation. I am a mathematician that has access to supercomputers and expensive math software that allows me to combine pachyderm output for simulations of four subs. So far, no real silver bullet. I can minimise peaks with one placement but that creates others,

I think the secret to flat bass is to own a large commercial movie theater.
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post #11976 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 08:12 PM
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Sorry, your answer provided no insight with respect to how you get two AS-EQ1's to coexist in the same system. Do you have any measurements?
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post #11977 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 08:45 PM
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Admittedly difficult question to answer here, but I figured I'd run it past the experts:

I was watching the premier of The Flash a little bit ago, but at one point during the program, the dialogue dropped out significantly. I experienced an identical issue watching the Tonight Show when Jimmy Fallon aired his new video with Will-I-Am - music was audible, but dialogue was not (although I couldn't reproduce it when I streamed the video on YouTube) I'm guessing it was because of a room mode, but I'm not entirely certain how to test and address. Some of the ideas I had included:

1.) shutting the sub off - not sure it'll make any difference because I expect the frequencies involved are above the crossover frequency (male voices)

2.) getting out the UMIK, but I have no idea what frequencies I should be looking for

Any ideas here guys? By and large the sound is excellent but there seem to be narrow notches where dialogue drops out which is, of course, unacceptable.

Thanks!

Mike
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post #11978 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 08:59 PM
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I doubt what you describe is caused by any audio characteristics of your listening room. It is more likely to be a fault in the broadcast.

Do you by chance have those programs on a DVR so you could play them back? If yes, I would go to the spots where the audio issue arose, then move around in the room. If it were a mode, simply shifting your listening position would cause the issue to change.
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post #11979 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I doubt what you describe is caused by any audio characteristics of your listening room. It is more likely to be a fault in the broadcast.

Do you by chance have those programs on a DVR so you could play them back? If yes, I would go to the spots where the audio issue arose, then move around in the room. If it were a mode, simply shifting your listening position would cause the issue to change.
Jerry -

I did DVR the episode of The Flash, so I can get to the same part and move around - we'll see what happens. I'll also take a look at what the input signal was (Dolby vs PCM) to see if it may be a byproduct of a low-budget affiliate.

Thx for the input and especially the prompt response!

Mike
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post #11980 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 09:07 PM
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I have the program on DVR as well. If you report back the time stamp where the issue occurs, I will compare it with my recording (DirecTV). Let's see what we find.
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post #11981 of 15803 Old 10-08-2014, 09:51 PM
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...and Jerry wins the prize! Turns out it was a stereo-only broadcast, not Dolby. I tried switching off any DSP done by my receiver and moved around the room a bit - no difference.

Thanks again Jerry!
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post #11982 of 15803 Old 10-11-2014, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Jerry -

I did DVR the episode of The Flash, so I can get to the same part and move around - we'll see what happens. I'll also take a look at what the input signal was (Dolby vs PCM) to see if it may be a byproduct of a low-budget affiliate.

Thx for the input and especially the prompt response!

Mike
Your issue is most likely your equipment and/or hardware. Also, your idea of Dolby and PCM is completely wrong. Dolby is an audio codec, similar to DTS. PCM is a completely different animal. Think, PCM versus Bitstreaming.
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post #11983 of 15803 Old 10-11-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post
Your issue is most likely your equipment and/or hardware. Also, your idea of Dolby and PCM is completely wrong. Dolby is an audio codec, similar to DTS. PCM is a completely different animal. Think, PCM versus Bitstreaming.
Martycool -

I disagree with your assessment of this issue being hardware related. If it were a hardware issue, it would be consistent across multiple programs and channels. This is not. Thank you for the correction on Dolby vs PCM, though.
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post #11984 of 15803 Old 10-11-2014, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
I was watching the premier of The Flash a little bit ago, but at one point during the program, the dialogue dropped out significantly. I experienced an identical issue watching the Tonight Show when Jimmy Fallon aired his new video with Will-I-Am - music was audible, but dialogue was not
When I was using a phantom center this sort of thing would happen depending on how a program was encoded for 5.1. Essentially the format was tickling a bug in my prepro. I ended up getting an actual center to address.

The reproducible example of the was the Intro on the original Star Trek series on Netflix. Couldn't hear it at all and the dialog was very soft.
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post #11985 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post
If you are using ASIO4All then you need to be in the Advanced Settings mode to have multiple devices active, click the spanner/wrench to turn on the advanced mode.


That got thanks man! Much easier now I just need help with a low frequency null. its around 45hz but not sure if I am attacking this right these graphs are both subs stacked at midpoint of the width wall. My over all best curve are at 1/4 and 3/4 but that dip just gets worse and moves towards 40hz. Need Help I know enough to be dangerous!!
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post #11986 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tsulliv9 View Post
That got thanks man! Much easier now I just need help with a low frequency null. its around 45hz but not sure if I am attacking this right these graphs are both subs stacked at midpoint of the width wall. My over all best curve are at 1/4 and 3/4 but that dip just gets worse and moves towards 40hz. Need Help I know enough to be dangerous!!
How far is your MLP from the rear wall?
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post #11987 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 02:19 PM
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@tsulliv9 : The room mode calculator doesn't provide any clues, unfortunately. It is most appropriate for a sealed rectangular room, although we don't know your room shape at this time. So why did you stack the subs? Normally, you would want to take advantage of multiple subs by placing them in different spots. Clearly, that is a nasty dip that you should be able to improve if you experiment with other sub placements. When you said the 1/4 and 3/4 locations provided the best response, yet you say the dip is worse. How was that location better? Do you have a measurement?

I don't know if you have tried every reasonable sub location yet, but it certainly would be worth an extra effort to try and tame the 45Hz dip, which must be audible. BTW, is this a measurement of subs only, or subs+center? If subs only, we need to see subs+center for all future measurements, please.
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post #11988 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsulliv9 View Post
That got thanks man! Much easier now I just need help with a low frequency null. its around 45hz but not sure if I am attacking this right these graphs are both subs stacked at midpoint of the width wall. My over all best curve are at 1/4 and 3/4 but that dip just gets worse and moves towards 40hz. Need Help I know enough to be dangerous!!
No smoothing on sub graphs and set your limits like this please:

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post #11989 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 03:21 PM
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How far is your MLP from the rear wall?


12 feet give or take a couple of inches.
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post #11990 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
@tsulliv9: The room mode calculator doesn't provide any clues, unfortunately. It is most appropriate for a sealed rectangular room, although we don't know your room shape at this time. So why did you stack the subs? Normally, you would want to take advantage of multiple subs by placing them in different spots. Clearly, that is a nasty dip that you should be able to improve if you experiment with other sub placements. When you said the 1/4 and 3/4 locations provided the best response, yet you say the dip is worse. How was that location better? Do you have a measurement?

I don't know if you have tried every reasonable sub location yet, but it certainly would be worth an extra effort to try and tame the 45Hz dip, which must be audible. BTW, is this a measurement of subs only, or subs+center? If subs only, we need to see subs+center for all future measurements, please.


I will redo this all again with all setting and info you all have requested. Sorry for the new guy mistakes still learning!
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post #11991 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tsulliv9 View Post
12 feet give or take a couple of inches.
So, you are only 7'7" from your display or the front wall, correct?
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post #11992 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 04:39 PM
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So, you are only 7'7" from your display or the front wall, correct?
Alan


I'm sorry I misread your post I am 6' from the back wall with 11' to the screen with 2' behind screen.
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post #11993 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 05:45 PM
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Ok here we go red is no audyssey green is with audyssey.


AJ the reason I stacked my subs was I thought I could help out the 65hz by getting one of my subs up to 4.5' at least that what I thought the room null program was showing me.


I hope I have enough info for you guys but just some background its a dedicated room my noise floor is 35db crossover at 80 hz and I dont have any real bass treatments yet. I wanted to give this a try and see if I could address the real problems not just do the standard room treatments everywhere.


Thanks for any and all feedback.
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post #11994 of 15803 Old 10-15-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tsulliv9 View Post
Ok here we go red is no audyssey green is with audyssey.
Why don't your waterfalls go up to 200Hz as well? Please follow the guidelines laid out in AustinJerry's guide. They're linked to in his signature.

HST, some bass treatments may help with that null. It's counterintuitive, I know. The other thing is, what little the waterfall shows, would benefit from some bass treatments.

Since you have 2 subs, I'd place the first one at the place that gives the best FR. Your measurements would probably still show a null. Then place the other one at the location that flattens the frequency response the most and gets rid of the aforementioned null.
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post #11995 of 15803 Old 10-16-2014, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Why don't your waterfalls go up to 200Hz as well? Please follow the guidelines laid out in AustinJerry's guide. They're linked to in his signature.

HST, some bass treatments may help with that null. It's counterintuitive, I know. The other thing is, what little the waterfall shows, would benefit from some bass treatments.

Since you have 2 subs, I'd place the first one at the place that gives the best FR. Your measurements would probably still show a null. Then place the other one at the location that flattens the frequency response the most and gets rid of the aforementioned null.


Here are the updated graphs.
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post #11996 of 15803 Old 10-16-2014, 06:13 AM
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It is still difficult to come to any conclusions with the waterfall graphs as as you have presented them. Evidently, you still have not reviewed the guidelines. The first issue is that you measurement level is too low. You should be aiming for a level of 90 DB for the waterfall measurement. And when posting the result, configure the vertical scale to extend to 100dB, the horizontal scale 15-300 Hz, and the time window only to 450ms.

As for the frequency response graphs, I don't believe you answered my question. Is this a measurement of the subs only, or is it subs+center? Unless it is the latter, we can't make any conclusions with this graph either. The center (or left+right) will contribute to the overall bass response and could affect the severe dip that the current measurements are revealing.

Summarizing:

1. Increase the measurement level to 90dB.
2. Include either the center channel (preferred), or the left+right channels.
3. Use the proper settings when posting your results.
4. Always include in your post a description of what we are looking at (where the subs are positioned, whether Audyssey is off or on, etc.)
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post #11997 of 15803 Old 10-16-2014, 02:15 PM
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Center with sub crossed over at 80hz two subs stacked at mid point of width wall behind screen.


yellow = no audyssey


blue = with audyssey


tried to get to 90db's but said was clipping so I had to lower the volume.


thanks
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post #11998 of 15803 Old 10-16-2014, 02:33 PM
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Better graph presentation, although I don't know why you didn't show all the way to 300 Hz on the frequency sweep graph as well. While the response with Audyssey is better than without Audyssey, the dip at 45 Hz is still clearly an issue.

There have been several recommendations to try alternate locations from the stacked at the center approach. Are you going to try other placements, or are you happy with what you have?
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post #11999 of 15803 Old 10-16-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Better graph presentation, although I don't know why you didn't show all the way to 300 Hz on the frequency sweep graph as well. While the response with Audyssey is better than without Audyssey, the dip at 45 Hz is still clearly an issue.

There have been several recommendations to try alternate locations from the stacked at the center approach. Are you going to try other placements, or are you happy with what you have?
I keep forgetting click apply. I just want to get some graphs up correctly and then I will move the subs. I hope I can keep them behind the false wall just to keep a clean look. how much should I move the subs between measurements?


Thanks for being forgiving just a good learning curve on all this stuff.
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post #12000 of 15803 Old 10-16-2014, 05:02 PM
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No problem, it takes some time to get the graphs in the format we are used to here, and we are all very anal.

As for next steps for your subs, unfortunately there are no shortcuts. The objective should be to achieve the flattest bass response, given the constraints of your listening room and equipment. This means spending a considerable amount of time placing the subs in all potential locations, measuring the results (and clearly labeling the measurements so you don't forget which one represents which sub configuration). There is a best configuration--you just need to find it.
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