Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 401 - AVS Forum
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post #12001 of 12030 Old 10-16-2014, 05:02 PM
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No problem, it takes some time to get the graphs in the format we are used to here, and we are all very anal.

As for next steps for your subs, unfortunately there are no shortcuts. The objective should be to achieve the flattest bass response, given the constraints of your listening room and equipment. This means spending a considerable amount of time placing the subs in all potential locations, measuring the results (and clearly labeling the measurements so you don't forget which one represents which sub configuration). There is a best configuration--you just need to find it.
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post #12002 of 12030 Old 10-16-2014, 05:43 PM
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Can someone take a look at my graphs, and tell me how they look. I'm still learning REW, and want to know if i'm on the right track.
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post #12003 of 12030 Old 10-16-2014, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsulliv9 View Post
I just want to get some graphs up correctly and then I will move the subs. I hope I can keep them behind the false wall just to keep a clean look. how much should I move the subs between measurements?
When I was in the gross phase of finding the right subwoofer positions I found that even as little as 6" made a difference.

Try taking one of your subs and moving it to be 2-3ft off-center. That may make enough of a difference.
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post #12004 of 12030 Old 10-16-2014, 08:58 PM
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My first measurements

Thanks to Jerry et all for the excellent guide. Having read all 12,000 plus posts on this thread it is obvious that the knowledge and experience of the regular contributors here are what makes this the best thread at AVS forums. I am a near computer illiterate, please over look the Newbie mistakes and stupid questions.
The first one, how do I get my mdat files linked up here?
On to some Before REW graphs. Hope I haven't messed up the graph posting conventions too badly.


































I think there are lots of areas for improvement. I will wait for the considered opinions here.
Only one sub in this system at the moment. If REW convinces me, l will buy more woofage...right Keith?
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post #12005 of 12030 Old 10-16-2014, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
This means spending a considerable amount of time placing the subs in all potential locations, measuring the results (and clearly labeling the measurements so you don't forget which one represents which sub configuration). There is a best configuration--you just need to find it.
Just a reminder of the trick that worked well for me. Mu your sub in your seat, with the woofer at ear level. For my sub, I had to flip it so the woofer was pointing up the ceiling. Then move your mic to different locations around the room where you'd consider putting the subwoofer. Make sure you've got the mic approximately where the sub would be centered. It's much easier to move the mic stand around than it is to move a big sub.
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post #12006 of 12030 Old 10-16-2014, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv Bagg View Post
On to some Before REW graphs. Hope I haven't messed up the graph posting conventions too badly.
I'll let other, smarter guys help you with evaluating the measurements. I'll just point out that the two graphs that say "No Smooting" in the title are indeed smoothed.
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post #12007 of 12030 Old 10-16-2014, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
I'll let other, smarter guys help you with evaluating the measurements. I'll just point out that the two graphs that say "No Smooting" in the title are indeed smoothed.


Sorry, look smoothed to me as well. Thought I had things under <control>.
I am not sure what happened, Newbie.















Hopefully more useful.

Last edited by Marv Bagg; 10-17-2014 at 12:44 AM. Reason: updated graghs
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post #12008 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
No problem, it takes some time to get the graphs in the format we are used to here, and we are all very anal.

As for next steps for your subs, unfortunately there are no shortcuts. The objective should be to achieve the flattest bass response, given the constraints of your listening room and equipment. This means spending a considerable amount of time placing the subs in all potential locations, measuring the results (and clearly labeling the measurements so you don't forget which one represents which sub configuration). There is a best configuration--you just need to find it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
When I was in the gross phase of finding the right subwoofer positions I found that even as little as 6" made a difference.

Try taking one of your subs and moving it to be 2-3ft off-center. That may make enough of a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Just a reminder of the trick that worked well for me. Mu your sub in your seat, with the woofer at ear level. For my sub, I had to flip it so the woofer was pointing up the ceiling. Then move your mic to different locations around the room where you'd consider putting the subwoofer. Make sure you've got the mic approximately where the sub would be centered. It's much easier to move the mic stand around than it is to move a big sub.



Thanks for all of your feedback I will attempt towork on the 45hz issue this weekend.

Just a couple of more questions.

The dip a 80hz I assume can be fixed with the sub distance adjustment correct?

Why do I have very little headroom when measuring? When I tried to reach 90db's REW said it detected clipping at the 15-300 hz range but I think have a very capable sytem. When I run audyssey and set my sub level to 75db's I still have 3/4 left on my level output. Is there a setting that I am missingsome where? I am using the cal file for my mike so that should be good to go.
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post #12009 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsulliv9 View Post
Thanks for all of your feedback I will attempt towork on the 45hz issue this weekend.

Just a couple of more questions.

The dip a 80hz I assume can be fixed with the sub distance adjustment correct?

Why do I have very little headroom when measuring? When I tried to reach 90db's REW said it detected clipping at the 15-300 hz range but I think have a very capable sytem. When I run audyssey and set my sub level to 75db's I still have 3/4 left on my level output. Is there a setting that I am missingsome where? I am using the cal file for my mike so that should be good to go.
Regarding the sub distance tweak, it may or may not improve the smoothness at the slice. All you can do is try. Do you have the link to the official write-up on the procedure?

As far as headroom, the clipping has nothing to do with your audio equipment. It is just REW reporting that the input signal being measured by the mic exceeds a certain threshold. What mic do you have, and does the calibration file include the sensitivity parameter for the mic? This is explained in the guide. To test whether your mic is being automatically calibrated by a sensitivity parameter, open REW's SPL meter and click on the Calibrate button. If your mic is auto-calibrated, then you should get a message saying that no calibration is required. Otherwise, the mic needs to be manually calibrated, with instructions on how to do so in the guide.

Assuming your mic is properly calibrated, adjust your AVR's master volume such that the measurement sweeps are registering close to zero headroom, but not hitting zero. That will be the loudest level you can use when running REW.
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post #12010 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 07:32 AM
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Jerry

Yes I have the write up of the sub distance tweak so I am good there. The mic I am using is the UMIK-1 along with the cal file I downloaded for it. I have verified that I get the no cal required responce on the SPL screen, so I guess low to mid 80db's is what I get for max output.

Thanks for the info I hope to have some good results for my next post!
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post #12011 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 07:41 AM
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@Marv Bagg .

The response curves look quite good, Marv. The sub response with Audyssey and PBK is especially nice. While there is always room for improvement, as you have said, I don't see anything that stands out as being particularly bad. I guess the next step would be to publish some ETC graphs so we can look at room reflections. How would you assess the current state of the system--are you pleased with how it sounds? What areas do you think need improvement?

BTW, nice job in your REW measurements and the posted results. It looks like you did your homework!
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post #12012 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsulliv9 View Post
Jerry

Yes I have the write up of the sub distance tweak so I am good there. The mic I am using is the UMIK-1 along with the cal file I downloaded for it. I have verified that I get the no cal required responce on the SPL screen, so I guess low to mid 80db's is what I get for max output.

Thanks for the info I hope to have some good results for my next post!
Just to make sure, here is a link to the document I use: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Oct%202013.pdf

There are several write-ups, and the one linked above is the most comprehensive.
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post #12013 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
@Marv Bagg.

The response curves look quite good, Marv. The sub response with Audyssey and PBK is especially nice. While there is always room for improvement, as you have said, I don't see anything that stands out as being particularly bad. I guess the next step would be to publish some ETC graphs so we can look at room reflections. How would you assess the current state of the system--are you pleased with how it sounds? What areas do you think need improvement?

BTW, nice job in your REW measurements and the posted results. It looks like you did your homework!



Thanks for the kind words, the real work was in your Guide. I just followed along, best I could.
I find my system sounds decent. Imaging could be improved a bit, sounds a little bright... harshness in the higher frequency's, and I would like to tighten the bass a bit.
Early high gain reflections are a concern. I suspect my home made panels may be one small part of it. It's ETC slicing that demonstrates that, maybe? I will definitely be looking at that when the time comes.











I thing it is speaker / sub placement and optimization for me next. Would there be much value in removing my treatments and shooting a set of Base Line Raw Room measurements before I start moving the heavy stuff around?
Hmmm...What would Jerry do?

Last edited by Marv Bagg; 10-17-2014 at 10:23 AM. Reason: spelling.
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post #12014 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 01:25 PM
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Removing treatments sounds like a lot of work. I don't see many issues with the bass response. The waterfalls look reasonable. Based on the ETC measurements, you could experiment with identifying the source of the early reflections and move/add treatments to control the ones > -20dB.
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post #12015 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 10:08 PM
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Imaging could be improved a bit, ...
I thing it is speaker / sub placement and optimization for me next.
For me, imaging/soundstage were most improved by reducing first reflections and then carefully tweaking speaker positions.
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post #12016 of 12030 Old 10-17-2014, 10:18 PM
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Completely agree. And Marv's measurements are showing some significant early reflections, so the return on the investment of treating the reflections is likely to be substantial.
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post #12017 of 12030 Old 10-18-2014, 06:25 PM
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Completely agree. And Marv's measurements are showing some significant early reflections, so the return on the investment of treating the reflections is likely to be substantial.

Thanks much guys.
I guess it's string, blockers and gubbins for me Monday. And REW of course.
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Thanks much guys.
I guess it's string, blockers and gubbins for me Monday. And REW of course.
Haha - well put. Good luck.
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post #12019 of 12030 Old 10-19-2014, 11:37 AM
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There is a new REW beta out (beta23), available over at HTS as usual (http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post956721)

One highlight from the release notes meaning it is highly relevant to people here

Bug fix: SPL readings from USB mics were 6 dB low (verified on UMIK-1, suspected to affect Omnimic and UMM-6 also).


It also adds support for the XMC-1 & has a variable smoothing option which sounds a bit like having the effect of frequency dependent windowing

Variable smoothing applies no smoothing below 100 Hz, 1/3 octave above 10 kHz and varies between 1/48 and 1/3 octave from 100 Hz to 10 kHz.
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post #12020 of 12030 Old 10-19-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
There is a new REW beta out (beta23), available over at HTS as usual (http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post956721)

One highlight from the release notes meaning it is highly relevant to people here

Bug fix: SPL readings from USB mics were 6 dB low (verified on UMIK-1, suspected to affect Omnimic and UMM-6 also).


It also adds support for the XMC-1 & has a variable smoothing option which sounds a bit like having the effect of frequency dependent windowing

Variable smoothing applies no smoothing below 100 Hz, 1/3 octave above 10 kHz and varies between 1/48 and 1/3 octave from 100 Hz to 10 kHz.

Thank you,
I found my UMM-6 SPL was about 3.5 dB low with the last version.
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post #12021 of 12030 Old 10-19-2014, 02:09 PM
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Thank you,
I found my UMM-6 SPL was about 3.5 dB low with the last version.
This only affects those who use the sensitivity parameter, rather than performing a manual calibration against an external reference such as a SPL meter. I have always advocated manual calibration, so I personally have not been affected by this bug. And even with the fix, a manual calibration is always more reliable and accurate, IMO.
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post #12022 of 12030 Old 10-20-2014, 03:27 AM
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This only affects those who use the sensitivity parameter, rather than performing a manual calibration against an external reference such as a SPL meter. I have always advocated manual calibration, so I personally have not been affected by this bug. And even with the fix, a manual calibration is always more reliable and accurate, IMO.
Hey Jerry , can you describe how to do a manual calibration, or post a link?
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post #12023 of 12030 Old 10-20-2014, 05:40 AM
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Hey Jerry , can you describe how to do a manual calibration, or post a link?
It is fully explained in the guide, Marty, Step 5 "Microphone Calibration", p. 47.
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post #12024 of 12030 Old Yesterday, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
One highlight from the release notes meaning it is highly relevant to people here

Bug fix: SPL readings from USB mics were 6 dB low (verified on UMIK-1, suspected to affect Omnimic and UMM-6 also).
I guess that would explain why Audyssey kept knocking my levels down so dramatically after I had run an initial "calibration" via REW.

And to think I initially blamed my Onkyo 805's atrocious puck microphone. I'm sorry Onkyo, I should never have doubted you.
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The REW Guide has been updated to version 3.9, October 21, 2014

Changes:

3.9 October 21, 2014 - Several minor revisions to the “pre-out” measurement instructions.
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For those who haven't already, check out the document linked to in the recent SMPTE thread. [ http://survey.constantcontact.com/su...i0zj9i4f/start ] I think there's lots of info that many here would find interesting. Not relevatory probably for some, but useful probably for most of us. Might help in determining how and what we measure, maybe how we set up our analysis/measuring windows, etc. For instance, if you look starting at p56 there are some charts and graphs that will maybe tease you to read more...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The REW Guide has been updated to version 3.9, October 21, 2014

Changes:

3.9 October 21, 2014 - Several minor revisions to the “pre-out” measurement instructions.

Jerry sorry to say because of some unforeseen problems I have not run REW yet, I plan on really giving this my best when I'm totally convicted to doing so. Could you tell me where in the guide the revisions have been made (particular pages). I have the original downloaded on my PC and printed the pages from that so I can do the actual REW procedure on my laptop. I think I have 38 pages printed out now so I would really appreciate if you could give me an idea of the pages that have the revisions. Thank you for the time and effort to provide this guide to those of us novices.
Sincerely, Jeff

j_nordi
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Jerry sorry to say because of some unforeseen problems I have not run REW yet, I plan on really giving this my best when I'm totally convicted to doing so. Could you tell me where in the guide the revisions have been made (particular pages). I have the original downloaded on my PC and printed the pages from that so I can do the actual REW procedure on my laptop. I think I have 38 pages printed out now so I would really appreciate if you could give me an idea of the pages that have the revisions. Thank you for the time and effort to provide this guide to those of us novices.
Sincerely, Jeff
The changes were made in the section titled "Pre-out measurements". You can get the page numbers from the index.
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The changes were made in the section titled "Pre-out measurements". You can get the page numbers from the index.
Much appreciated, thank you. Is this the correct cable to use after I connect the RCA to the designated preout?
http://www.showmecables.com/product/...FcNQ7AodBW4ALA

j_nordi

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post #12030 of 12030 Old Yesterday, 08:32 PM
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Can someone take a look at my graphs, and tell me how they look. I'm still learning REW, and want to know if i'm on the right track.
Graphs look really good with both subs and Audyessy engaged, but the really question is how does it sound to you? Have you have a chance to do any extensive testing (ie watching movies etc)?
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