Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 403 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12061 of 14446 Old 11-02-2014, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Here is the graph for my sub frequency response 15-300Hz
Is there a crossover engaged either on the sub or using bass management in the AVR for this sub only response? You should turn both up as high as possible to show the full capability of your sub. If you then overlay this with full range plots of your mains, you can make sure the XO is optimized for your room.

Last edited by jkasanic; 11-02-2014 at 02:48 AM.
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post #12062 of 14446 Old 11-02-2014, 03:04 AM
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Thought I might as well add the FL+Sub and FR+Sub frequency responses (1/6th smoothing) also, seems there is a null around 80Hz (although you cant really see it with smoothing)? The crossover for the sub is set at 80Hz, is this a coincidence?
Audyssey never measures the interaction of the sub(s) and mains during the calibration process so it's possible the XO is not optimum. Do a search in this thread for "sub distance tweak" and follow the procedure AFTER you have determined the optimal XO. Also, do another search in this thread for "room mode calculator" and enter the dims of your room (incl height). The first order waves are usually the most problematic to deal with especially when they overlap. Post the results of your room modes as well 0-300Hz for sub and mains (no XO or as high as possible for sub, and run the mains as large in bass management on the AVR). You wan to see the full output of all your speakers to confirm the recommended XO setting from the AVR and then finally perform the sub distance tweak if the splice is not smooth.
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post #12063 of 14446 Old 11-02-2014, 03:16 AM
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I didn't event think about the effect of the crossover on the measurements! Feeling a bit stoopid Will re-run the measurements and re-post graphs as described, including the room modes. This is very helpful, thankyou!
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post #12064 of 14446 Old 11-02-2014, 05:35 AM
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Personally, I would be much more concerned about the 25dB rise in the bass frequencies down to 40Hz. The ideal response would be flat in this region, or perhaps a very gradual rise, but not 25dB. Given the severe ringing that is revealed in the waterfall graph, there is likely a relationship.

The tiny dip at the crossover is far less significant. I would focus on flattening out the bass response using one or more of the recommendations presented earlier before I would spend any time on the sub distance tweak.
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post #12065 of 14446 Old 11-02-2014, 03:18 PM
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I assume the rise is related to a room mode at 45Hz. Having a similar rise at 30Hz in my own room, I expect Audyssey tames this peak rather well especially if he's using XT32.
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post #12066 of 14446 Old 11-02-2014, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
Is there a crossover engaged either on the sub or using bass management in the AVR for this sub only response? You should turn both up as high as possible to show the full capability of your sub. If you then overlay this with full range plots of your mains, you can make sure the XO is optimized for your room.
Changing the crossover in the AVR had zero impact on the sub frequency response, it only seemed to change how the mains performed as shown in this overlay:
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post #12067 of 14446 Old 11-02-2014, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
I assume the rise is related to a room mode at 45Hz. Having a similar rise at 30Hz in my own room, I expect Audyssey tames this peak rather well especially if he's using XT32.
My SR6007 only has MultiEQ XT not XT32. Audyssey seems to flatten the frequency response between 20Hz - 30Hz but it hasn't tamed the spike at 40Hz at all?? Might re-run Audyssey and give it another go (when the kids are out!).
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post #12068 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
Post the results of your room modes as well 0-300Hz for sub and mains (no XO or as high as possible for sub, and run the mains as large in bass management on the AVR). You wan to see the full output of all your speakers to confirm the recommended XO setting from the AVR and then finally perform the sub distance tweak if the splice is not smooth.
When you say no XO or as high as possible for sub, do you mean i should set the LPF for LFE as high as possible? And do I need to run the mains as large, cant I just adjust the XO down to 40Hz?
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post #12069 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
My SR6007 only has MultiEQ XT not XT32. Audyssey seems to flatten the frequency response between 20Hz - 30Hz but it hasn't tamed the spike at 40Hz at all?? Might re-run Audyssey and give it another go (when the kids are out!).
If you are hoping that Audyssey will fix your bass response issues, you will be disappointed. As mentioned now several times, the approach should be to re-position the sub for improved response, purchase additional subs if that doesn't work, and finally to consider room treatments. EQ is just the finishing touch and can only address minor remaining issues, and the same goes for other minor tweaks like crossover adjustments, sub distance tweaks.
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post #12070 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 06:54 AM
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Two filters, one to flatten the bump at 40 and another to add a house curve, would make a dramatic difference.
He did mention WAF issues, and may be limited in other options.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #12071 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
When you say no XO or as high as possible for sub, do you mean i should set the LPF for LFE as high as possible? And do I need to run the mains as large, cant I just adjust the XO down to 40Hz?
Leave the LPF for LFE at 120Hz as we're not measuring the LFE channel. All I was trying to do is get a full range response for your sub (with and without Audyssey) with no crossover (to the mains) engaged. I feel as though you don't understand well enough the full range responses of your speakers to make an educated decision on the crossover between the sub and mains. The easiest way to do this is to take a measurement with one of your mains disconnected (although I'm not sure if you're using HDMI with multi-ch or 2-ch or 2-ch legacy connection but people seem to get confused when measuring Sub Only with HDMI multi-ch connection).

Also, I didn't understand your comments about the response of the sub not changing in the other post with the graph. It appeared as though you were showing the sub plus right channel response with crossovers at 40Hz, 60Hz and 80Hz? From what I could tell, the response was significantly different in the 30-60Hz region which corresponds to two of your three first order modes (34Hz and 45Hz, I guessed at the height since you didn't provide it, see attached). Since you already indicated WAF issues and limited flexibility on sub placement, I was moving ahead of AustinJerry's recommendations. If, on the other hand, you are able to move the sub then I also suggest this as the first order. Since you only have one sub and your major issue is around 45Hz, the first place you could try placing the sub is at the midpoint of your front or rear wall.

I started with similar issues in my room (14'4" wide x 18'3" long x 8'8" high). I had a huge peak at 30Hz (1st order length mode) and a dip at 40Hz (1st order width mode). It was recommended that I try placing my sub at the mid point of my front wall because my room has a false front wall and like you, I only have one sub. As expected, the first order width mode at 40Hz was improved but I still had the 30Hz peak to deal with it (see attached Sub only FR). Fortunately, Audyssey XT32 was able to handle my peak (hence my earlier post about using EQ to tame your peak as I did). One negative though of using Audyssey to tame my 30Hz peak is that I lost control over any house curve that I might like to implement (as LastButNotLeast recommended to you in his post). There are other differences between the original green and the final blue responses but the point remains that the 30Hz peak and 40Hz dip were addressed with placement and EQ.
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post #12072 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Changing the crossover in the AVR had zero impact on the sub frequency response, it only seemed to change how the mains performed as shown in this overlay:
This overlay of your front right + sub with varying crossovers shows the effect of the crossover setting. My point was to show the full range in-room response of the sub and the mains "separately". See attached.
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post #12073 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you are hoping that Audyssey will fix your bass response issues, you will be disappointed. As mentioned now several times, the approach should be to re-position the sub for improved response, purchase additional subs if that doesn't work, and finally to consider room treatments. EQ is just the finishing touch and can only address minor remaining issues, and the same goes for other minor tweaks like crossover adjustments, sub distance tweaks.
I think this is true mainly because he's using XT and not XT32 but I think I understand your point. There is certainly other things he should try BEFORE relying on EQ as you've pointed out. My responses have been under the impression that relocating subs and adding subs is not really an option due to other factors.
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post #12074 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 06:25 PM
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As I have been following this thread for a while now, I'm gathering a wealth of information, the one constant it seems is that XT32 is a real plus here and should be considered when purchasing a receiver. Other places that I frequent don't put that much emphasis on the XT32 platform as using the REW program with usb mic and miniDSP is of more importance. I do not have a XT32 capable receiver and I'm in the market for a new one as I type this, so are my assumptions correct that I should get an Audyssey XT32 capable receiver, what about sub EQ? TIA
Cheers Jeff
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post #12075 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
As I have been following this thread for a while now, I'm gathering a wealth of information, the one constant it seems is that XT32 is a real plus here and should be considered when purchasing a receiver. Other places that I frequent don't put that much emphasis on the XT32 platform as using the REW program with usb mic and miniDSP is of more importance.
You need REW (or OmniMic) to find out what's actually happening. A miniDSP might or might not be needed after running XT32. You won't know for sure without measuring.
Quote:
I do not have a XT32 capable receiver and I'm in the market for a new one as I type this, so are my assumptions correct that I should get an Audyssey XT32 capable receiver, what about sub EQ? TIA
Cheers Jeff
All versions of Audyssey MultEQ EQ the sub. (Oh, except for 2EQ, which does almost no EQing at all.) XT32 does it much better than the older versions.
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post #12076 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
As I have been following this thread for a while now, I'm gathering a wealth of information, the one constant it seems is that XT32 is a real plus here and should be considered when purchasing a receiver. Other places that I frequent don't put that much emphasis on the XT32 platform as using the REW program with usb mic and miniDSP is of more importance. I do not have a XT32 capable receiver and I'm in the market for a new one as I type this, so are my assumptions correct that I should get an Audyssey XT32 capable receiver, what about sub EQ? TIA
Cheers Jeff
First of all, I absolutely agree with Seldon. If you want Audyssey, then you should choose XT32. However, if you follow the advice of this thread, you will hear over and over again that analyzing a room's response and following proven methods of addressing the room's issues is an extremely important preparation prior to applying EQ. You will rarely see examples of poor response being magically fixed simply by running Audyssey, regardless of which version. But you will see many examples of people who have used Audyssey as the final step in achieving stellar results, but only after significant pre-Audyssey work.

Regarding Sub EQ HT, all Denon/Marantz AVR's with XT32 also include Sub EQ HT. Some models of Onkyo didn't, but Onkyo has dropped Audyssey completely, so who cares?
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post #12077 of 14446 Old 11-03-2014, 09:32 PM
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Okay so I have re-run Audyssey and this is now my front right, front left and sub. I've also included the speakers with no Audyssey. Its looking much better I think, although the bass is ringing out pretty badly.

Dont have many options regarding moving sub, listening position or installing second sub and bass traps etc - WAF Also trying to learn how to use REW and interpret graphs etc. Hoping to be able to build a dedicated theatre in a couple of years.
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post #12078 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 12:22 AM
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Here are the waterfalls for the combined Front Left, Front Right and Sub, one with Audyssey and one without. My noise floor is very high at 50dB, I perhaps should have calibrated mic to 95dB instead of 75dB which is what these were taken at?
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post #12079 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 03:57 AM
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The frequency response is not looking too bad. The waterfalls, as you say, are showing fairly severe bass ringing.

As a general rule, you want to measure approximately 40dB above the noise floor. The levels on the last two waterfalls is a bit too low, which is why the graphs look better than the fist one. We all understand WAF, but you now have some REW skills that will help make decisions down the road.
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post #12080 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Okay so I have re-run Audyssey and this is now my front right, front left and sub. I've also included the speakers with no Audyssey. Its looking much better I think, although the bass is ringing out pretty badly.

Dont have many options regarding moving sub, listening position or installing second sub and bass traps etc - WAF Also trying to learn how to use REW and interpret graphs etc. Hoping to be able to build a dedicated theatre in a couple of years.
In the first graph, where are you crossing the mains and sub? Also, how are you measuring the sub response (or did you purposefully offset it by 10dB)? I agree the overall response is not bad and the slight house curve should be appealing as well. Was this just from re-running Audyssey??
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post #12081 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Here are the waterfalls for the combined Front Left, Front Right and Sub, one with Audyssey and one without. My noise floor is very high at 50dB, I perhaps should have calibrated mic to 95dB instead of 75dB which is what these were taken at?
You can calibrate the mic at whatever dB level you like (I use 80dB). Then use the gain control knob on the receiver to increase or decrease as desired. Once you do it a couple of times for your room, you'll figure out which setting on the AVR corresponds to a given dB level at the MLP (e.g. -12 on my prepro is approx. 80dB at the MLP). As Jerry mentioned, the waterfalls need a higher overall level to examine the entire bass range but your peaks in the 20-40Hz range are getting up there.
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post #12082 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 06:33 AM
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Its looking much better I think, although the bass is ringing out pretty badly.
That's going to be hard to address with a high degree of WAF. You might want to go the decorative acoustic panel route, or lots of big squishy chairs.

The acoustics treatment thread may have suggestions as well.
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post #12083 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 06:47 AM
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This has been asked before but I couldn't find a definitive answer
Is an Audyssey Pro microphone suitable for REW ?

I have the Audyssey Pro kit and XTZ Room analyser Pro, if possible I would like to avoid adding yet another mic to the collection.

It would appear REW might be easier to use compared to my first attempt a couple of years ago although then it was with a RS meter
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post #12084 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
This has been asked before but I couldn't find a definitive answer
Is an Audyssey Pro microphone suitable for REW ?

I have the Audyssey Pro kit and XTZ Room analyser Pro, if possible I would like to avoid adding yet another mic to the collection.

It would appear REW might be easier to use compared to my first attempt a couple of years ago although then it was with a RS meter
It has been discussed before. There is no calibration file for the Pro mic for use with REW. And, not sure how the Pro mic amplifier would work with REW either. If you were able to get it to work, the measurements might be OK for comparisons, but for absolute measurements, they would be invalid (because of no calibration file). If you are serious about using REW, you might as well resign yourself to the fact that you won't be happy without a new mic.
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post #12085 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
It has been discussed before. There is no calibration file for the Pro mic for use with REW. And, not sure how the Pro mic amplifier would work with REW either. If you were able to get it to work, the measurements might be OK for comparisons, but for absolute measurements, they would be invalid (because of no calibration file). If you are serious about using REW, you might as well resign yourself to the fact that you won't be happy without a new mic.
Many thanks Jerry

Must applaud that REW is a free resource so having to buy a USB mic is no biggy
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post #12086 of 14446 Old 11-04-2014, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The frequency response is not looking too bad. The waterfalls, as you say, are showing fairly severe bass ringing.

As a general rule, you want to measure approximately 40dB above the noise floor. The levels on the last two waterfalls is a bit too low, which is why the graphs look better than the fist one. We all understand WAF, but you now have some REW skills that will help make decisions down the road.
I will re-take the waterfalls at a higher dB level to get above the noisefloor and re-look at them. Thanks for all the help guys, you've helped me de-mystify REW so at least I have a basic understanding now (now I have to go help my brother set up his place in Western Australia at Christmas, he upgraded from an old 230W B&W sub to an SVS SB13 Ultra, he cant remove the smile from his face!).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
First of all, I absolutely agree with Seldon. If you want Audyssey, then you should choose XT32. However, if you follow the advice of this thread, you will hear over and over again that analyzing a room's response and following proven methods of addressing the room's issues is an extremely important preparation prior to applying EQ. You will rarely see examples of poor response being magically fixed simply by running Audyssey, regardless of which version. But you will see many examples of people who have used Audyssey as the final step in achieving stellar results, but only after significant pre-Audyssey work.

Regarding Sub EQ HT, all Denon/Marantz AVR's with XT32 also include Sub EQ HT. Some models of Onkyo didn't, but Onkyo has dropped Audyssey completely, so who cares?
Thank you Jerry, I do realize that there's a lot of work to do prior to Audyssey, it's just that I am very familiar with Onkyo receivers and was thinking of getting the TX-NR1010 as this is last years model and does have XT32 with SUBEQ HT, I'm not that concerned with Atmos at this point so I'm going to take advantage of last years model as I can get a good price on it. I've had excellent results with Onkyo over the last ten years in spite of the many HDMI problems that have occurred. First and foremost is the leg work with REW that I must do before implementing any RC software. Thanks gain.
Cheers Jeff
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post #12088 of 14446 Old 11-05-2014, 01:29 AM
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Hi everyone,

I'm trying to work out what is causing a broad 10 dB dip in my response at around 60 Hz. Is there anything I could try that might give me some insight? I'm not sure if this is useful information or not but I have noticed that, at the main listening position, if I reposition the measuring mic closer to the ground, the dip becomes less pronounced. In fact, placing the mic on the ground at the MLP, the dip becomes completely filled in and is in fact now a peak. (Also, moving the measuring position to an adjacent seat, the dip is also much improved.)

I don't know that much about optimizing bass and hence any comments will probably be very helpful.

Some extra information: my crossover is at 80 Hz. I have tried the trick involving varying the sub distance but it didn't improve things much.
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post #12089 of 14446 Old 11-05-2014, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Thank you Jerry, I do realize that there's a lot of work to do prior to Audyssey, it's just that I am very familiar with Onkyo receivers and was thinking of getting the TX-NR1010 as this is last years model and does have XT32 with SUBEQ HT, I'm not that concerned with Atmos at this point so I'm going to take advantage of last years model as I can get a good price on it. I've had excellent results with Onkyo over the last ten years in spite of the many HDMI problems that have occurred. First and foremost is the leg work with REW that I must do before implementing any RC software. Thanks gain.
Cheers Jeff
Just a reminder the new Onkyo's don't have Audyssey so if you like the brand it has to be an old model to get it.
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post #12090 of 14446 Old 11-05-2014, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Hi everyone,

I'm trying to work out what is causing a broad 10 dB dip in my response at around 60 Hz. Is there anything I could try that might give me some insight? I'm not sure if this is useful information or not but I have noticed that, at the main listening position, if I reposition the measuring mic closer to the ground, the dip becomes less pronounced. In fact, placing the mic on the ground at the MLP, the dip becomes completely filled in and is in fact now a peak. (Also, moving the measuring position to an adjacent seat, the dip is also much improved.)

I don't know that much about optimizing bass and hence any comments will probably be very helpful.

Some extra information: my crossover is at 80 Hz. I have tried the trick involving varying the sub distance but it didn't improve things much.
What are your room dimensions, including height? If the dip is caused my a room mode, then EQ is not going to help. The typical way to address a room mode is by either moving the Sub to a different position, adding additional subs, or moving the MLP.
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