Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 406 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-19-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
OmniMic is directly supported, so much in fact, that REQ automatically recognizes the OmniMic and asks for the OmniMic calibration file :-) With "Java mode" my OmniMic works flawlessly in REW, and proven very accurate.
+1 as I confirmed the same before returning my OM kit. What I haven't seen reported by owners of OM that also use REW is whether or not a USB mic such as the UMM-6 or UMIK-1 works with the OM software?
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
jim,

Have you tried out the Diaphragmatic Absorber unit offered by Acoustic Fields? It sounds too good to be true with the ability to deal really low frequencies down to 30Hz. The use of activated carbon as the mass to absorb the low frequencies is unique.

Never heard of Diaphragmatic Absorbers until I went over to Accoustic Fields website - apparently it's been around for years. The most I've heard are the pre-made bass traps from companies such as GIK/Real Traps or DIY OC703 fiberglass panels.

The size to low frequency absorbing potential is really amazing. There's even DIY kits/instructions for the hobbyists.
No, I haven't tried them. I am guessing they are pretty pricey. I wonder if the activated carbon in some DIY design would show similar results. Wonder how expensive that stuff is. Admittedly, the below 50hz area in my system could use some help.

Edit: Just looked, almost $1000 for one bass unit. No thanks.

Edit 2: Just for grins, I submitted my room for their free analysis.

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Old 11-19-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
First off, thanks to austinjerry for the step-by-step guide. There's NO way I'd have gotten this far without it. I tried rew a couple of years ago and gave up due to its lack of user friendliness. But, now I have a graph and want to see what y'all think...it looks pretty ugly to me. I needed a place to start so I know where to begin messing with the inuke dsp's peq to improve things. The graph shows L spkr + subs (red), R spkr + subs (blue) and an average of the two (black) with 1/6 smoothing.



It looks like you did everything properly, with the exception of using the posting guidelines layed out in the REW Guide.

You've got a huge null from about 17-40hz of about 18db! The only ways to fix that are with sub placement, moving the MLP or multiple subs.

Post up a graph with Audyssey so we can see how much it fixes and then decide what needs the most attention. Also, give us a list of your equipment.

AVR: DENON 2113ci
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post






It looks like you did everything properly, with the exception of using the posting guidelines layed out in the REW Guide.



You've got a huge null from about 17-40hz of about 18db! The only ways to fix that are with sub placement, moving the MLP or multiple subs.



Post up a graph with Audyssey so we can see how much it fixes and then decide what needs the most attention. Also, give us a list of your equipment.

Thanks Alan. I followed austinjerry's guide, so not sure what I'm supposed to do different regarding posting.

Yeah that peak is ugly. Will repeat with audyssey today and post back. I'm already running dual subs so I guess moving things around will be the best bet, though not sure here if move them.

As far as measuring is concerned, I have Monitor Audio RX8 as LR, a Hsu vtf3.3 turbo sub, a DO SI 18 sub running off the inuke 6000dsp, denon x4000 connected via Hdmi to laptop PC. MLP is the couch and the subs are located on both ends.


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Old 11-19-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Thanks Alan. I followed austinjerry's guide, so not sure what I'm supposed to do different regarding posting.

[emoji107]
Look at things at 1/24th smoothing. Or the bass area with no smoothing.
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Look at things at 1/24th smoothing. Or the bass area with no smoothing.
You can also use variable smoothing with the latest beta (which is no smoothing below 100Hz then going from 1/48 to 1/3 at 10kHz).
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Thanks Alan. I followed austinjerry's guide, so not sure what I'm supposed to do different regarding posting.

Yeah that peak is ugly. Will repeat with audyssey today and post back. I'm already running dual subs so I guess moving things around will be the best bet, though not sure here if move them.

As far as measuring is concerned, I have Monitor Audio RX8 as LR, a Hsu vtf3.3 turbo sub, a DO SI 18 sub running off the inuke 6000dsp, denon x4000 connected via Hdmi to laptop PC. MLP is the couch and the subs are located on both ends.


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The only thing with the graph is that we don't need to see all the way down to 2hz. 15hz is the standard lower limit. Also, your vertical scale should be from 55db to 105db. You should try measuring at least 30db above the noise floor too. For most folks, that's around 50db, so try getting your average SPL around 80 (you're currently around 75db).

Below is my standard set up procedure for dual subs with Audyssey:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here is my standard procedure for 2 identical subs. The only difference with your mis-matched subs would be that you have to get them both to output the same SPL (will probably have differing gain settings), an SPL meter would work for this. Do you have one? If not, you should get one....it's an essential tool for HT.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point (just a starting point, gain structure can vary greatly from one manufacturer to another). Set phase to "0" on both subs for now.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Playing the AVRs test tone, adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db to -8db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -5db to -8db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Set all speakers to "small"
14. Set all crossovers to 80hz (or, if set higher than 80hz by Audyssey, leave them alone)
15. Bump up the sub trim by 3db to 6db to your preference
16. Enjoy!

Hope this helps!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Since you have REW, of course you would do some measurements after this. Give us an Audyssey on, Center + subs graph.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
You can also use variable smoothing with the latest beta (which is no smoothing below 100Hz then going from 1/48 to 1/3 at 10kHz).
That's cool! I'm gonna have to get the newest beta, haven't downloaded it yet.

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Old 11-19-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
your vertical scale should be from 55db to 105db
that's 45-105 not 55-105

@ambesolman is the hsu sealed or ported? if it's ported then that dip may well be the result of the interaction between the port and your newer sealed sub. I would definitely take measurements of the two subs individually as a 1st step to see what is going on.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
that's 45-105 not 55-105

@ambesolman is the hsu sealed or ported? if it's ported then that dip may well be the result of the interaction between the port and your newer sealed sub. I would definitely take measurements of the two subs individually as a 1st step to see what is going on.
While the guide is a good starting point, id say your measurement SPL +20/-50.

If you got nulls reaching 45spl on a 80-85spl measurement, your in a world of trouble anyhow

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Old 11-19-2014, 01:33 PM
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ASIO help

I'm trying to set up REW with a UMIK mic. I Downloaded the ASIO4 control panel.

My problem is when I try to set up the preferences in REW, if I use "ASIO" driver, my HDMI device ("denon avr") doesn't appear in the "output" drop-down, or in the"ASIO control Panel"

If I use the "JAVA" driver, then "denon avr" shows up.

Any thoughts/suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks,

MK

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1526916/my...-1-living-room
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:41 PM
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I took a bunch more measurements and changed the smoothing to 1/24 per recommendation. Each line is the avg of L+sub and R+sub with and without audyssey for both the hsu and rockbiter separately.

I've had no luck using asio despite numerous reinstalls so i'm going the java route. Also don't seem to have a way to select the center channel separately, just L, R and subs.

The hsu is ported, the DO SI 18 "rockbiter" is sealed. There's no really any other place to move the subs to unfortunately.

What other graphs would be useful? I have each sub + L/R with and w/o audyssey...
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
I took a bunch more measurements and changed the smoothing to 1/24 per recommendation. Each line is the avg of L+sub and R+sub with and without audyssey for both the hsu and rockbiter separately.

I've had no luck using asio despite numerous reinstalls so i'm going the java route. Also don't seem to have a way to select the center channel separately, just L, R and subs.

The hsu is ported, the DO SI 18 "rockbiter" is sealed. There's no really any other place to move the subs to unfortunately.

What other graphs would be useful? I have each sub + L/R with and w/o audyssey...
You can do a center channel measurement by changing the AVR mode to Dolby Pro Logic IIx (presumably from stereo). This is also in the guide.
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
I took a bunch more measurements and changed the smoothing to 1/24 per recommendation. Each line is the avg of L+sub and R+sub with and without audyssey for both the hsu and rockbiter separately.

I've had no luck using asio despite numerous reinstalls so i'm going the java route. Also don't seem to have a way to select the center channel separately, just L, R and subs.

The hsu is ported, the DO SI 18 "rockbiter" is sealed. There's no really any other place to move the subs to unfortunately.

What other graphs would be useful? I have each sub + L/R with and w/o audyssey...
just concentrate on the subs alone for now, I suggest you post graphs (15-300Hz) of each sub individually (no crossover, no mains playing, no eq, just the subs in position) then the sub individually with whatever eq you apply then the subs playing together (including EQ) and then the subs together (with EQ + XO).

having said that, if you haven't taken steps to deal with the phase issue of a ported + a sealed sub then you can expect to have the sort of issues you have (big nulls where they overlap). There are some threads in the DIY board on this subject, if you want to play them both then you need to EQ to sealed sub to play nice with the ported.

Do you really need the ported sub though? Do you need the output? IIRC the sub you built is fairly beefy.... alternatively can you seal the hsu?

I would say this particular problem is better dealt with on your DIY thread btw, it's not really a typical issue for this thread.
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
You can do a center channel measurement by changing the AVR mode to Dolby Pro Logic IIx (presumably from stereo). This is also in the guide.

Should've read a little further I guess[emoji6]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
just concentrate on the subs alone for now, I suggest you post graphs (15-300Hz) of each sub individually (no crossover, no mains playing, no eq, just the subs in position) then the sub individually with whatever eq you apply then the subs playing together (including EQ) and then the subs together (with EQ + XO).
Sounds like a good idea



Quote:
having said that, if you haven't taken steps to deal with the phase issue of a ported + a sealed sub then you can expect to have the sort of issues you have (big nulls where they overlap). There are some threads in the DIY board on this subject, if you want to play them both then you need to EQ to sealed sub to play nice with the ported.
I was reading one during my build and a lot of it was over my head, but I'll look at it again. Was hoping I'd be the exception to the rule[emoji16]



Quote:
Do you really need the ported sub though? Do you need the output? IIRC the sub you built is fairly beefy.... alternatively can you seal the hsu?



I would say this particular problem is better dealt with on your DIY thread btw, it's not really a typical issue for this thread.

I like running dual subs since it allows me to crossover at 80 vs 60 without being localized since I now have one at each end of the couch. Definitely sounds better. With only one sub, it has to be at 60.

NEED the Hsu? Maybe not, haven't tried running with just the rockbiter, might give it a whirl for a few days. WANT the output? Yeah[emoji41]! Unfortunately, the Hsu can't be sealed, the new version can be. If I were going to keep it long term I might buy the new amp so I could run sealed, BUT I'm planning on building a second Rockbiter next year once I'm done with school. So I won't have this issue for more than a year.

I'll keep this over in my thread unless I have specific REW questions. Thanks!


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Old 11-19-2014, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
I took a bunch more measurements and changed the smoothing to 1/24 per recommendation. Each line is the avg of L+sub and R+sub with and without audyssey for both the hsu and rockbiter separately.

I've had no luck using asio despite numerous reinstalls so i'm going the java route. Also don't seem to have a way to select the center channel separately, just L, R and subs.

The hsu is ported, the DO SI 18 "rockbiter" is sealed. There's no really any other place to move the subs to unfortunately.

What other graphs would be useful? I have each sub + L/R with and w/o audyssey...
Please describe what you mean by "average of" L+sub. What exactly are you averaging?
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Old 11-19-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Please describe what you mean by "average of" L+sub. What exactly are you averaging?

Sweep with Left front speaker+sub, then sweep with Right front speaker+sub, then click average response button in lower left corner to give average response of the two? Am I not supposed to do that?


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Old 11-19-2014, 06:49 PM
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I hope this becomes the place for support and "how-to's."
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Sweep with Left front speaker+sub, then sweep with Right front speaker+sub, then click average response button in lower left corner to give average response of the two? Am I not supposed to do that?


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No, you are not supposed to average. This just masks individual response issues that might be present in one or the other channel. A typical suite of measurements would be:

- Left+Right+subs, 15-300Hz, no smoothing
- Subs only, 15-300Hz no smoothing,
- Left+subs, 15-20,000Hz with smoothing (either 1/6, or according to Jim, 1/24, either is fine)
- Right+subs, 15-20,000, same smoothing
- Center+subs, 15-20,000, same smoothing
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
No, you are not supposed to average. This just masks individual response issues that might be present in one or the other channel. A typical suite of measurements would be:



- Left+Right+subs, 15-300Hz, no smoothing

- Subs only, 15-300Hz no smoothing,

- Left+subs, 15-20,000Hz with smoothing (either 1/6, or according to Jim, 1/24, either is fine)

- Right+subs, 15-20,000, same smoothing

- Center+subs, 15-20,000, same smoothing

Oooohhhhh. Ok. So when and what is that used for?


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Old 11-19-2014, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Oooohhhhh. Ok. So when and what is that used for?


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If you are asking what the measurements are used for, they are used to gain knowledge of how your audio system is performing. The first two provide insight into the bass performance, and the next three isolate each of the three primary speakers and show whether any of the speakers have a response anomaly that needs to be addressed. Make sense?
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you are asking what the measurements are used for, they are used to gain knowledge of how your audio system is performing. The first two provide insight into the bass performance, and the next three isolate each of the three primary speakers and show whether any of the speakers have a response anomaly that needs to be addressed. Make sense?

I meant the averages button


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Old 11-19-2014, 09:37 PM
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Well, it creates an average, of course. The question really is, when does an average measurement provide better insight into an issue that individual measurements? If, for example, your left speaker has a big peak, but the right speaker's response tames the peak a bit, and the average shows only a minor peak, does this mean you won't hear the big peak in the left speaker under normal listening conditions? Of course not. When a sound originates from the left speaker alone, you will be hearing the big peak.

I'm sure there are situations in which an average is useful, but if your objective is to understand how each speaker is performing, an average will not give you that information.

Back several years ago, I used to take an REW reading at each of the eight spots where I placed the Audyssey calibration mic, and then I would take an average of all eight readings, thinking that gave me a better perspective of what Audyssey was doing. Then I realized then no one ever sits in all eight positions at the same time, and an average had no value at all. I stopped using averages from that point on.
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:44 AM
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On page 84 of Jerry's document, it suggest what are various speaker measurements one should take.
My HDMI only supports 2 channel for some reason. And I could not figure out how to test any other combination than just the Left and Right fronts that I could do.
e.g. How to measure center. Because no matter which input I select (and PL II Movie on AVR), it goes only to Left or Right depending on the HDMI output chosen.
Same question for only sub, or Front+Cub or center+sub..
I will appreciate if someone could point me to a document/thread that has these details.
TIA.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
On page 84 of Jerry's document, it suggest what are various speaker measurements one should take.
My HDMI only supports 2 channel for some reason. And I could not figure out how to test any other combination than just the Left and Right fronts that I could do.
e.g. How to measure center. Because no matter which input I select (and PL II Movie on AVR), it goes only to Left or Right depending on the HDMI output chosen.
Same question for only sub, or Front+Cub or center+sub..
I will appreciate if someone could point me to a document/thread that has these details.
TIA.
On the preferences screen, go to the "Timing Reference Output" box on the right, and if HDMI Out 1 is configured as the normal output, select HDMI Out 2 in the timing reference drop-down. This will output a signal to both the left and the right channels simultaneously. Then, when you are in PLII Cinema mode, since the left and right channels have the same signal, they will be combined and output to the center channel, allowing you to take a measurement of that channel.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:47 AM
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The only time I have ever used "Average the Responses" is when comparing individual sub placement measurements to get an idea of what 2 or more possible locations would net me....it usually didn't successfully predict the actual response, although it can come really close sometimes.

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:56 AM
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The only time I have ever used "Average the Responses" is when comparing individual sub placement measurements to get an idea of what 2 or more possible locations would net me....it usually didn't successfully predict the actual response, although it can come really close sometimes.
fwiw that is what trace arithmetic is for rather than averaging.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:02 PM
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I think I am confusing myself from too much information overload. When I take measurements with REW do I want Audyssey on or off? I have read where some say to keep it on and others say turn it off. How do I even turn it on or off in a Denon receiver?
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:05 PM
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I think I am confusing myself from too much information overload. When I take measurements with REW do I want Audyssey on or off? I have read where some say to keep it on and others say turn it off.
It depends on what you're trying to achieve. I believe the consensus on this thread is to measure and tweak subs etc with it off. That way Audyssey has a good starting point to work with.

On the other hand, if you just want feedback from the thread participants with it on then that's fine as well.

Just remember to read AustinJerry's guide before doing anything.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:10 PM
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How do I even turn it on or off in a Denon receiver?
Have you opened the manual for your AVR??

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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