Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 409 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
@greenwood .

Markus has given you good feedback. It is the ETC measurement that allows you to assess improvements in the spectral region (above ~500Hz). I believe the guide provides some tips about how to look at an ETC graph, identify reflections that you want to tame, find the source of the reflections, and then assess the effects of adding treatments.

Thank you, Markus and Jerry! That "string technique" in the guide is brilliant. You really pushed me in the right direction there.

Using that technique I first decided to examine the peak at 8.6ms / 9.8 ft. It seemed to me that it has to be hitting both walls in the corner of the room behind my couch. So I propped up my OC 703 panels in that corner, and boom, that peek is knocked down (didn't seem to matter much to that peek if I put it at either or both reflection points in the corner).





The only things that seems odd is that at least one of the peaks (at 5.1 ms) seems to have gone up by a few dB after propping up the treatment.

Thank you so much, guys! I guess I'll spend some time attacking these peaks with more panels and the ETC graphs.
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
I would also think just cutting the peak at 50Hz with some EQ would do wonders for the bass ringing!
Probably, but to address the 50Hz peak, you would need to re-position the sub, add another sub, or add treatments. So we are really saying the same thing, no?
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood Ave View Post
Thank you, Markus and Jerry! That "string technique" in the guide is brilliant. You really pushed me in the right direction there.

Using that technique I first decided to examine the peak at 8.6ms / 9.8 ft. It seemed to me that it has to be hitting both walls in the corner of the room behind my couch. So I propped up my OC 703 panels in that corner, and boom, that peek is knocked down (didn't seem to matter much to that peek if I put it at either or both reflection points in the corner).





The only things that seems odd is that at least one of the peaks (at 5.1 ms) seems to have gone up by a few dB after propping up the treatment.

Thank you so much, guys! I guess I'll spend some time attacking these peaks with more panels and the ETC graphs.
You are getting the hang of it. The second most effective place for treatments in my room was the back wall and back corners. Keep experimenting. Reflections are pesky to track down, and the process will turn your hair gray (if it isn't already ). And remember, some reflections can be caused by multiple bounces. I had a reflection from the ceiling into the back wall, and then to the MLP. The string technique doesn't work well in these cases, but the "blocking technique" is very useful.
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Approaches to address the bass ringing, in order of likely effectiveness:

- Optimize position of the subwoofer using REW measurements as the guide
- Adding additional subs
- Adding bass traps
I like how you summarize this. I've been researching this, and these are exactly the approaches I've been weighing. I guess that why I started with the first reflection points is that it seemed much more straightforward. Everyone agrees that first reflection points should be treated. (Or at least that's what I used to think. Now I've been coming across some experts who have a more nuanced take on this. There's a YouTube video I just watched where Earl Geddes seems to suggest that vertical first reflections are not a big deal.)

So about this 50 Hz peak, I'm thinking that I'd have to get some pretty serious bass traps in there to do much for this. My understanding is that even 4" absorption panels might not do much at this frequency, right? What kind of bass traps might I be looking at to potentially have an positive effect there?

I have experimented a bit with moving around the sub. There aren't too many possible placements, but it seems to me that moving it didn't have too much of an effect on the 50 Hz peak but that a dip in 80 - 90 Hz region came up when I moved it into other placements. I will of course experiment more here. I have a feeling that an additional PB-1000 sub when I get some funds may be the best option.

Thank you, all!
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Some people would say getting bass resonance under control is the most important first step.
That would be me

Overall decay time in Greenwood Ave's room is very good (<300ms) but it rises below 400Hz.



The biggest impact on perceived sound quality can be had if this is reduced. Most people tend to ignore this because low frequency absorption is so hard to achieve while putting panels at first reflection points is easy and seems to have such a profound effect - at least measurements suggest that
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Probably, but to address the 50Hz peak, you would need to re-position the sub, add another sub, or add treatments. So we are really saying the same thing, no?
Not really, you're killing flies with a bazooka.
Off the top of my head
PEQ 50Hz -10dB Q=0.5
would probably help a great deal.
So now the question is: Do you have any EQ available to you, Greenwood?
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Old 11-23-2014, 12:02 PM
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^
More like Q = 4

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Old 11-23-2014, 12:16 PM
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The top of your head would be much better at this than the top of mine; I defer to your expertise.

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 11-23-2014, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Not really, you're killing flies with a bazooka.
Off the top of my head
PEQ 50Hz -10dB Q=0.5
would probably help a great deal.
So now the question is: Do you have any EQ available to you, Greenwood?
The only EQ I use is Audyssey MultiEq XT. Are you thinking a product like MiniDSP? I'm old school in that I've still got a few thousand CDs. I just got Apple Airplay working last week. My point is that I don't generally use my computer to play music, so a computer program wouldn't work for me. Currently the only thing I typically have hooked up to my AVR is a Sony Blu-Ray player.

I suppose a product like the one below would be much cheaper than an additional sub, so you've given me something to consider.

http://www.minidsp.com/products/mini...ox/minidsp-2x4

Last edited by Greenwood Ave; 11-23-2014 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:04 PM
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Did you turn off MultEQ for your measurements?

Markus

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Old 11-23-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood Ave View Post
I suppose a product like the one below would be much cheaper than an additional sub, so you've given me something to consider.
That's why we're here.
Nice blog, BTW.
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Not really, you're killing flies with a bazooka.
Off the top of my head
PEQ 50Hz -10dB Q=0.5
would probably help a great deal.
So now the question is: Do you have any EQ available to you, Greenwood?
Maybe, but in my experience DSP should be the last thing tried, not the first. However, there is nothing wrong with experimenting. While we are at it, we should mention that Greenwood is using an AVR with MultEQ XT, when upgrading to an AVR with MultEQ XT32 would surely also do a better job of EQ'ing the low end.
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Did you turn off MultEQ for your measurements?
I had it on "direct" for the ETC measurements, so no Audyssey and no sub. I think on the files I posted I had Audyssey flat on with no dynamic EQ/volume.
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You are getting the hang of it. The second most effective place for treatments in my room was the back wall and back corners. Keep experimenting. Reflections are pesky to track down, and the process will turn your hair gray (if it isn't already ). And remember, some reflections can be caused by multiple bounces. I had a reflection from the ceiling into the back wall, and then to the MLP. The string technique doesn't work well in these cases, but the "blocking technique" is very useful.
I'm starting to see what you mean. While the spike around 8.8 ms was easy to work out, the other spikes under 5 ms (not addressed by the clouds) are proving harder. No reasonable place I've put up the Owen Corning makes much of a dent in those.... Am I correct in assuming that spikes later in time are a bigger deal than the initial spikes?
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood Ave View Post
I had it on "direct" for the ETC measurements, so no Audyssey and no sub. I think on the files I posted I had Audyssey flat on with no dynamic EQ/volume.
If XT "missed" the peak at 50Hz then it's time to upgrade to XT32.

Markus

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Old 11-23-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood Ave View Post
I'm starting to see what you mean. While the spike around 8.8 ms was easy to work out, the other spikes under 5 ms (not addressed by the clouds) are proving harder. No reasonable place I've put up the Owen Corning makes much of a dent in those.... Am I correct in assuming that spikes later in time are a bigger deal than the initial spikes?
The early ones are the bad ones.

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Old 11-23-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood Ave View Post
I'm starting to see what you mean. While the spike around 8.8 ms was easy to work out, the other spikes under 5 ms (not addressed by the clouds) are proving harder. No reasonable place I've put up the Owen Corning makes much of a dent in those.... Am I correct in assuming that spikes later in time are a bigger deal than the initial spikes?
Are you familiar with the "blocking technique"?
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Old 11-23-2014, 04:52 PM
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If XT "missed" the peak at 50Hz then it's time to upgrade to XT32.
...Or better yet, Dirac Live.
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Old 11-23-2014, 04:54 PM
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The only things that seems odd is that at least one of the peaks (at 5.1 ms) seems to have gone up by a few dB after propping up the treatment.
I found that dealing with reflections to be a bit of a game of whack a mole. Whenever you find and tame one, another one pops up.
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Old 11-23-2014, 05:05 PM
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If XT "missed" the peak at 50Hz then it's time to upgrade to XT32.
Well, it seems to me that Audyssey XT does do at least some good here:



I understand that XT32 is much better in the bass, so that's another thing to consider. I usually like to stay about 5 years behind in technology. I save a lot of money that way. Guess that's why I still have an iPhone 3g.

Right now I'm leaning towards first using the 4 remaining Owens Corning 703 panels I have to make two 4" bass traps and mounting them on the back wall behind the couch. I now know i will hit at least one spike in the ETC that way as well. I imagine this will make at least some minimal difference in the bass, and if it doesn't I suppose I can move them somewhere where it does. I have some doubt that I'll be able to put enough bass traps in there to make much of a difference, but I will be interested to see.

Is the general procedure for determining the best place for a bass trap to simply measure the places in the room with the most bass (presumably corners) and then put the bass traps there? Does it need to be any more complicated at my level?

I have tried moving the sub everywhere I can given my room's many restrictions, and every place seems to measure the same or worse as now. In front/right corner the 50 Hz spike goes through the roof, and a dip right after becomes very pronounced. I will also try rerunning Audyssey. My experience is that the results oftentimes vary.

Of course another sub or something like MiniDSP are other things to consider.

Thank you, everyone, for all your help.
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Old 11-23-2014, 05:07 PM
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Are you familiar with the "blocking technique"?
No, I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by that. I meant to see if that was in your guide.
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Old 11-23-2014, 05:36 PM
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Well, it seems to me that Audyssey XT does do at least some good here:



I understand that XT32 is much better in the bass, so that's another thing to consider. I usually like to stay about 5 years behind in technology. I save a lot of money that way. Guess that's why I still have an iPhone 3g.

Right now I'm leaning towards first using the 4 remaining Owens Corning 703 panels I have to make two 4" bass traps and mounting them on the back wall behind the couch. I now know i will hit at least one spike in the ETC that way as well. I imagine this will make at least some minimal difference in the bass, and if it doesn't I suppose I can move them somewhere where it does. I have some doubt that I'll be able to put enough bass traps in there to make much of a difference, but I will be interested to see.

Is the general procedure for determining the best place for a bass trap to simply measure the places in the room with the most bass (presumably corners) and then put the bass traps there? Does it need to be any more complicated at my level?

I have tried moving the sub everywhere I can given my room's many restrictions, and every place seems to measure the same or worse as now. In front/right corner the 50 Hz spike goes through the roof, and a dip right after becomes very pronounced. I will also try rerunning Audyssey. My experience is that the results oftentimes vary.

Of course another sub or something like MiniDSP are other things to consider.

Thank you, everyone, for all your help.
As a general rule, bass traps are more effective if there is distance between the trap and the wall. The best location is in a corner where two walls (or three) come together. I even use the intersection of the wall and the ceiling.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:03 PM
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I have tried moving the sub everywhere I can given my room's many restrictions
Next time, put the sub in the MLP and move the mic/meter/your head into the different places the sub could go.
Keep up the good work, and please keep us posted.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:11 PM
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Right now I'm leaning towards first using the 4 remaining Owens Corning 703 panels I have to make two 4" bass traps and mounting them on the back wall behind the couch.
Floyd or Toole, don't remember which, recommends treating the reflections behind the MLP (your couch?) as one of the first steps. That's what I did and the improvement in dialogue clarity was very noticeable. I used Roxul SafeNSound, 3" thick right on the wall.

I made 4 panels for a total of 12 ft of panels.
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Floyd or Toole, don't remember which, recommends treating the reflections behind the MLP (your couch?) as one of the first steps. That's what I did and the improvement in dialogue clarity was very noticeable. I used Roxul SafeNSound, 3" thick right on the wall.



I made 4 panels for a total of 12 ft of panels.

I need to measure with and without my panel up to see what, if any, good it's doing sound wise. At 7.5x2.5', you'd think it's doing something to help


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Old 11-23-2014, 10:34 PM
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@greenwood . Here are your room modes:



Unfortunately, due to the shape of your room, and the sloping ceiling, I am not sure that this helps very much. It does show that you have a first-order standing wave at 47Hz associated with the length of the room. Moving the couch forward may alleviate this somewhat. You seem to be sitting pretty far away from the screen. How large is that screen? And the distance to the left and right speakers could be closer to the equilateral triangle if you move the couch forward.
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood Ave View Post
No, I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by that. I meant to see if that was in your guide.
Here is a crude diagram:



Assume you are trying to find a specific reflection. Take a spare 2'x4' treatment and place it immediately to the left of one of the front speakers. Measure the effect on reflection using ETC. Move the treatment to the right side of the speaker, and repeat the ETC measurement. Balance the treatment on the top of the speaker, and repeat the ETC measurement. Place the treatment behind the speaker, and repeat the ETC treatment.

Each placement blocks the signal from the speaker in one direction (left, right, towards the ceiling, and towards the wall behind the speaker). By looking at the ETC graph, one of the placements will eliminate the reflection you are trying to find. Now at least you know the direction of the reflection, which is an important first step. This is how I discovered the severity of ceiling reflections, and the double-reflection (ceiling to back wall to MLP).

Edit: Pic of treatment balanced on top of a speaker to find ceiling reflections (courtesy of Markus):

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Old 11-24-2014, 12:48 AM
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As a general rule, bass traps are more effective if there is distance between the trap and the wall.
This is true for absorbers that work best where air velocity is highest, e.g. absorbers made from porous material like fiber glass. Absobers that work best where air pressure is highest should be mounted as cloase to the wall as possible because pressure is highest at room boundaries.

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Old 11-24-2014, 12:49 AM
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Floyd or Toole, don't remember which, recommends treating the reflections behind the MLP (your couch?) as one of the first steps. That's what I did and the improvement in dialogue clarity was very noticeable. I used Roxul SafeNSound, 3" thick right on the wall.

I made 4 panels for a total of 12 ft of panels.
The man's name is Floyd Toole.
Other than that treating the back wall is a very good idea especially when one is sitting close to it.

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Old 11-24-2014, 01:07 AM
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I understand that XT32 is much better in the bass, so that's another thing to consider. I usually like to stay about 5 years behind in technology. I save a lot of money that way. Guess that's why I still have an iPhone 3g.
Try to get a used Onkyo TX-NR818. It came with XT32.

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Of course another sub or something like MiniDSP are other things to consider.
A second sub will probably improve things the most.

Markus

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