Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 418 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12511 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:00 AM
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Austin Jerry,
are they not supposed to? The dip from FR graph and the resonance from the decay graph at 100hz that is? Sorry I am still new to this stuff.
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post #12512 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Can you post this graph with Audyssey off?
I did not take that measurement for the latest Audessey run. I did in the past with subs in different place and found XT32 with subeqHT did an excellent job flatten the FR. Have you thought about upgrading your avr to a xt32 subeqHT one and not using minidsp for your upcoming T18's? It is very affordable now.
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post #12513 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:24 AM
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Yeah, with the $$$ I spent on the T-18s there ain't gonna be any more upgrades for me for a very long time. With that said...I have thought about XT32...sure.

The reason I wanted to see the Audyssey Off graph is because I wanted to see if Audyssey is boosting a big null at 100hz (as I think it was at 50hz before). I think you did good with the new sub placement, but you may have just swapped one null for another.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #12514 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Would need to see the scope graph. Could you also upload the .mdat of your last measurement somewhere?
Is there a way to go back to view that scope to change the horizontal limit? That .mdat file has 30 measurements in it. Is that what you want me to upload?
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post #12515 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:32 AM
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On the decay graph, you ideally want the 160ms slice (the blue slice) to be down 20db from the red slice. You can see that just below 100hz, you're only about 10db down. Since it wasn't like this before you moved the subs (although it was similar, but at 58hz), this leads me to believe that Audyssey is boosting the heck out of a null at 100hz.

Overall, your decay improved by moving the subs....if it wasn't for that nastiness around 100hz, you'd be golden.




Before moving subs:


AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
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Audyssey FAQ
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post #12516 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
The reason I wanted to see the Audyssey Off graph is because I wanted to see if Audyssey is boosting a big null at 100hz (as I think it was at 50hz before). I think you did good with the new sub placement, but you may have just swapped one null for another.
I take the 100hz null over 50 any day, would you? does it matter though for the 100hz null if I crossover my front 3 @ 80hz?

Last edited by tvuong; 12-05-2014 at 09:27 AM.
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post #12517 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Is there a way to go back to view that scope to change the horizontal limit?
No. Help > Graph Panel > Scope:

"This graph shows the generated sweep test signal and the raw captured system response as acquired via the soundcard, which may be useful for troubleshooting. This is not a live display, it updates with new content after a sweep has completed. Only the signals for the last measurement are shown. The Y axis is the percentage of digital full scale. The generated sweep is shown normalised so that its peak value is 100%. If the captured trace reaches +100 or -100% it is clipping and the sweep level or AV processor volume should be reduced."

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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
That .mdat file has 30 measurements in it. Is that what you want me to upload?
Why not but I'm only interested in the sub response with and without MultEQ, so 2 of those 30 would be enough.

Markus

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post #12518 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
No. Help > Graph Panel > Scope:

"This graph shows the generated sweep test signal and the raw captured system response as acquired via the soundcard, which may be useful for troubleshooting. This is not a live display, it updates with new content after a sweep has completed. Only the signals for the last measurement are shown. The Y axis is the percentage of digital full scale. The generated sweep is shown normalised so that its peak value is 100%. If the captured trace reaches +100 or -100% it is clipping and the sweep level or AV processor volume should be reduced."

Why not but I'm only interested in the sub response with and without MultEQ, so 2 of those 30 would be enough.
Dang, I am not ready to run another sweep for the scope. If I do, what would the horizontal scale needs to be? How do I upload the .mdat file that contains only 2 out of 30 measurements?
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post #12519 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Dang, I am not ready to run another sweep for the scope. If I do, what would the horizontal scale needs to be?
So that the whole recording is visible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
How do I upload the .mdat file that contains only 2 out of 30 measurements?
Delete all measurements except those two and save to a new .mdat file.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole

Last edited by markus767; 12-05-2014 at 08:58 AM.
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post #12520 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
How do I upload the .mdat file that contains only 2 out of 30 measurements?
you can either click delete 28 times and then save a new mdat
or
save the 2 you want into separate mdat's, delete everything from the workspace, open each one in turn & then save a new mdat with the 2 measurements
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post #12521 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Delete all measurements except those two and save to a new .mdat file.
Duh? I didn't even think about that.
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post #12522 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JAMES MCHUGHES View Post
Anyone have time to point me in the right direction ?
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post #12523 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Can you post this graph with Audyssey off?
@Alan P ,
I did measure. Here it is subs only graphs.
@markus767 , Is this the graph you wanted to see?




Here is the graphs after subs distance tweak for comparision. It does help bring up the subs 80hz dip. The rest, XT32/SubeqHT does wonders
Blue: Center and subs Audessey ON
Green: Left Right and subs Audessey ON
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Last edited by tvuong; 12-05-2014 at 01:27 PM.
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post #12524 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
@Alan P ,
I did measure. Here it is subs only graphs.
the distortion plots from your compression sweeps would be informative (with respect to what I think Alan is quizzing you on)

having said that, I'd be kicking back and cranking out some choons/films if I were you
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post #12525 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 01:25 PM
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^^ I wish I can right now.
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post #12526 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
having said that, I'd be kicking back and cranking out some choons/films if I were you
I agree!

But if you want to try and perfect the response more, and you have more placement options....you could try to get rid of that null at 100hz pre-Audyssey. With Audyssey over-boosting to try and fill it in, it's undoubtedly creating distortion....how audible that distortion would be is up for debate.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #12527 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I agree!

But if you want to try and perfect the response more, and you have more placement options....you could try to get rid of that null at 100hz pre-Audyssey. With Audyssey over-boosting to try and fill it in, it's undoubtedly creating distortion....how audible that distortion would be is up for debate.
I would say highly unlikely, the boost would be centred somewhere in the vicinity of g# I think (http://auditoryneuroscience.com/topi...-western-music) and must be v high Q (as the effect spans maybe 10Hz at most).

It is an exceptionally flat response though, be interesting to see if Markus digs anything up out of the scope view (which I thought was just clip detection so always thought that REW alerts in that case)
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post #12528 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 01:53 PM
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Hey guys,

What does this impulse response tell you about these subs?



What about this one?

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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #12529 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hey guys,

What does this impulse response tell you about these subs?



What about this one?

I would say nothing. The time window is way too wide, the IR is centred on 0 but you have cut off the negative portion, one looks like it is mains + sub and the other is something else (maybe a sub alone?).

Take a step back, what are you trying to do? where do those results come from? what frequency range was swept? is it EQ'ed or not? where was the mic? etc
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post #12530 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:02 PM
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I sold 2 of my XS15s to a buddy and went over last weekend and took some measurements. Here's a comparison of his old sub vs. the PSAs:



The 2 impulse responses are old sub vs. new, just wanted to know what they mean. What settings should I use so they display correctly?
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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #12531 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I would say nothing. The time window is way too wide, the IR is centred on 0 but you have cut off the negative portion, one looks like it is mains + sub and the other is something else (maybe a sub alone?).

Take a step back, what are you trying to do? where do those results come from? what frequency range was swept? is it EQ'ed or not? where was the mic? etc
With the old sub, it was sub + mains. With the new subs it was subs + CC. Audyssey off in both cases. Mic at MLP. Sweep was 0-300hz.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #12532 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:06 PM
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^
Well you would need to measure the same devices if you want to compare them. If you want to compare sub performance then measure just the subs.

Markus

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post #12533 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Well you would need to measure the same devices if you want to compare them.
Yeah, we knew the PSAs would be a significant upgrade so just took the one measurement with the old sub.

Here's the MDAT if anyone's interested:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl2docvvq9x41nt/REW.mdat?dl=0

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
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Audyssey 101
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post #12534 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:15 PM
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^
What's the diference between MLP1, 2 and 3? Is it with MultEQ or not? Any differences in location between old and new sub?

Markus

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post #12535 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
But if you want to try and perfect the response more, and you have more placement options....you could try to get rid of that null at 100hz pre-Audyssey. With Audyssey over-boosting to try and fill it in, it's undoubtedly creating distortion....how audible that distortion would be is up for debate.
No more other placement options as this is my third placement for them and it is the best of them all. Regarding the 100Hz null, It doesn't matter as my front three speakers are taking from there from their 80Hz crossover as shown in the LR & Subs and Center & Subs graphs

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
It is an exceptionally flat response though, be interesting to see if Markus digs anything up out of the scope view (which I thought was just clip detection so always thought that REW alerts in that case)
Much Thanks.
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post #12536 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Audyssey off in both cases.
The label in the .mdat says "Old LR+Sub AudOn"?

Markus

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post #12537 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
What's the diference between MLP1, 2 and 3? Is it with MultEQ or not? Any differences in location between old and new sub?
Yeah, sorry....Aud was on for that first measurement with the old sub.

Old sub was in front right corner. PSAs are in both front left and right corners.

All other measurements are Aud off.


EDIT: We did determine after measuring that his version of Audyssey (6-7 year old Onkyo) did absolutely nothing to his bass response...and, as a matter of fact, made the rest of his FR look horrible.

The last unlabeled measurement was subs + CC after distance tweak.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #12538 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yeah, sorry....Aud was on for that first measurement with the old sub.

Old sub was in front right corner. PSAs are in both front left and right corners.

All other measurements are Aud off.
So what is the difference between "MLP1, 2 and 3"?

Markus

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post #12539 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:27 PM
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Three different seats in the front row of his theater. MLP1 is the far left seat.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #12540 of 14546 Old 12-05-2014, 02:29 PM
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^
So you were basically comparing apples and oranges. One sub vs. two, different brands, different EQ, maybe even different mic location.

Markus

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