Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 421 - AVS Forum
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post #12601 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by T0S View Post
AustinJerry, My room is 6.5m Lx6.83W. I've attached the Room Sim and also my REW measurements from my original post.
You are irght in that it is less of a 40Hz dip than simply the flat region between the 25 and 50Hz peaks in the Sim. So really my problem is knocking down the 25xHz nodes, which I can't seem to get Audyssey XT to do (but the Antinode could)
now I understand the problem a bit better. Unfortunately, a square listening room is acoustically speaking about the worst you could have, because the length and width modes are the same. I was originally confused because if you are sitting midway between the left and right walls, you would be sitting in the middle of the 25Hz mode associated with the width. Now I see you have a 26Hz mode associated with the length. you are not seated in the center front-to-back, so you see the 26Hz node in your measurements. Using the simulator, watch what happens when you slide the MLP forward--the 25Hz peak disappears. Unfortunately, even with the MLP at that position, the combined modes at 51-53Hz are causing a peak, and again at 76-79Hz there is a bad peak.

So, assuming you want to keep the MLP at the midpoint side-to-side, then I recommend you move the MLP forward to ease the 25Hz peak. Then, to address the other peaks, I would look at the effect of adding additional subs. For example, a sub placed at the midpoint of the side wall seems to knock down the 50Hz peak. It may take three or more subs in your room to achieve a flat response--I would keep experimenting.

Here are your nodes:



And here is the simulator with two subs:

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post #12602 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
You could save up for a pair of T18's. Denon X4000 can be had new for $650-$700 plus you can sell your 2113. Seriously, You spent a great fortune on a pair of top notch subs and cheap out on what driving them? It will also makes your Horns sing even better. There is enough evidence to confirm xt32/subeq HT is a real deal so there is no excuse NOT to complete your craving for not much more

Ummmm.....SHUT UP!!



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post #12603 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
^

What sub do you have?
I have a Velodyne HGS18. Thanks.
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post #12604 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 10:35 AM
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Thought id share a acoustics calculator site. Among the offerings, it provides an interesting Axial mode visual.

http://www.acoustic.ua/recommendations/800

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post #12605 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
what I would do is determine exactly whether Audyssey sees that spike as something to correct or not. I think this is quite unlikely but still worth verifying. If your room is a cuboid then just use the rew room sim. In a rectangular room that spike equates to a room dimension of ~7-8m. Do you have such a room?

If not then I'd take 7 measurements, 1 at the MLP and 1 each about 0.75-1m away in each dimension (up/down, left/right, forward/back). I would then compare the <50Hz responses and compare them to your audyssey mic positions to see if you have the corner case of an extreme spike in 1 position but a dip in other positions & hence audyssey is choosing not to correct.

as per my previous post though... I would be looking to use a secondary EQ to tame that peak when using audyssey. Throw a BFD at it (or a minidsp in new money) and sort it out properly.
Yes excellent idea about measuring the individual positions - missed reading this post earlier. I did notice during the set up that the right hand side positions required Audyssey to pull up the chirp volumes. I'll make sure to compare those to the rest. Thanks.

Last edited by T0S; 12-09-2014 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Typos
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post #12606 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 01:38 PM
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Received umik-1 yesterday. Do you use that black foam cover when taking measurements or w/o it?
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post #12607 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by T0S View Post
Yes excellent idea about measuring the individual positions - missed reading this post earlier. I did notice during the set up that the right hand side positions required Audyssey to pull up the chirp volumes. I'll make sure to compare those to the rest. Thanks.
Or...do I as suggested and just run a single mic position Audyssey cal and see if the response improves.
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post #12608 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Received umik-1 yesterday. Do you use that black foam cover when taking measurements or w/o it?
If you are talking about the dust cover, I leave it on. However, it is acoustically transparent, so it doesn't really matter. When setting the mic to ear-level height, measure with the dust cap off, since it adds a bit to the height.
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post #12609 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by T0S View Post
Yes excellent idea about measuring the individual positions - missed reading this post earlier. I did notice during the set up that the right hand side positions required Audyssey to pull up the chirp volumes. I'll make sure to compare those to the rest. Thanks.
I spent a bit of time providing some recommendations earlier today. No comment from you?
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post #12610 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you are talking about the dust cover, I leave it on. However, it is acoustically transparent, so it doesn't really matter. When setting the mic to ear-level height, measure with the dust cap off, since it adds a bit to the height.
That is the wind screen and either way should be fine. Does that really make enough difference to add to the height?
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post #12611 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 02:29 PM
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That is the wind screen and either way should be fine. Does that really make enough difference to add to the height?
Depends. If you are obsessive like me, then 1/4 inch is a big deal. In reality, probably not.
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post #12612 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 03:25 PM
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^

Geez, Jerry....you got your head is a vise while your listening to your system or what?



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post #12613 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 04:27 PM
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I have been thinking about adding a third FV15hp for a while now. With my almost flat FR, do you guys think it will improve if my normal listening level is -15 or -10 max? The third one will be near field in the left rear corner (only place I can put in my room). Since both of my front subs are equal distance to MLP, they can be fed off from my avr sub1 output, and sub2 output for the third one. What y'all think?
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post #12614 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you are talking about the dust cover, I leave it on. However, it is acoustically transparent, so it doesn't really matter. When setting the mic to ear-level height, measure with the dust cap off, since it adds a bit to the height.
Yes. That's the dust cover I was talking about.
Thanks for the response.
Also is the narrow_band_90_degree calibration file is correct one to be used?
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post #12615 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I have been thinking about adding a third FV15hp for a while now. With my almost flat FR, do you guys think it will improve if my normal listening level is -15 or -10 max? The third one will be near field in the left rear corner (only place I can put in my room). Since both of my front subs are equal distance to MLP, they can be fed off from my avr sub1 output, and sub2 output for the third one. What y'all think?
You can never have too many subs. I have four 15-inch sealed units. Exactly as you suggest, the front two are on one sub output and equidistant from the MLP, the other two are collocated in the rear on the other sub channel. Works quite well.

Check this: AustinJerry's Set-Up
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post #12616 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 04:52 PM
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Yes. That's the dust cover I was talking about.
Thanks for the response.
Also is the narrow_band_90_degree calibration file is correct one to be used?
Yes.
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post #12617 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 04:54 PM
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You can never have too many subs.
Truer words have never been spoken.
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post #12618 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You can never have too many subs. I have four 15-inch sealed units. Exactly as you suggest, the front two are on one sub output and equidistant from the MLP, the other two are collocated in the rear on the other sub channel. Works quite well.

Check this: AustinJerry's Set-Up
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Truer words have never been spoken.
I asked the question in the wrong place. I should have known better Very nice set up there, Jerry. Seriously, what is the benefit(s) though by adding a third knowing that I have a flat FR with two and don't listen that loud?
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post #12619 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 05:51 PM
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I asked the question in the wrong place. I should have known better Very nice set up there, Jerry. Seriously, what is the benefit(s) though by adding a third knowing that I have a flat FR with two and don't listen that loud?
Well, if you are satisfied with your current bass response, there is no reason to add more subs. You need to be the judge.
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post #12620 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 06:08 PM
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You need to be the judge.
That's the hard part
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post #12621 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 06:34 PM
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I went back and downloaded your measurement file, and I don't see an opportunity for significant improvement by adding any additional subs.
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post #12622 of 12866 Old 12-09-2014, 06:56 PM
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^^ thanks for taking your time, Jerry. Much appreciated.
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post #12623 of 12866 Old 12-10-2014, 02:50 AM
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I spent a bit of time providing some recommendations earlier today. No comment from you?
Sorry I haven't responded yet - absolutely taking in your comments back to the REW SIM and then looking to see if there is another sub posiion I should try before I report back the results. It'll have to be this weekend.

Based on you comments, I'll try to reduce the 50Hz peaks at least to see if Audyssey will then do a better job in the low bass range.
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post #12624 of 12866 Old 12-10-2014, 02:57 AM
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Sorry I haven't responded yet - absolutely taking in your comments back to the REW SIM and then looking to see if there is another sub posiion I should try before I report back the results. It'll have to be this weekend.

Based on you comments, I'll try to reduce the 50Hz peaks at least to see if Audyssey will then do a better job in the low bass range as per the attachment
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post #12625 of 12866 Old 12-10-2014, 03:13 AM
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Or...do I as suggested and just run a single mic position Audyssey cal and see if the response improves.
Oh yes - that's the easiest and will do that first. Thanks for this.
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post #12626 of 12866 Old 12-10-2014, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I have been thinking about adding a third FV15hp for a while now. With my almost flat FR, do you guys think it will improve if my normal listening level is -15 or -10 max? The third one will be near field in the left rear corner (only place I can put in my room). Since both of my front subs are equal distance to MLP, they can be fed off from my avr sub1 output, and sub2 output for the third one. What y'all think?
there are 3 reasons I can think of for adding moar subs

1) FR improvements
2) headroom (i.e. reduce distortion at your chosen listening level)
3) increased tactile feel

clearly 1 doesn't apply (and you may even make it worse)
2 doesn't obviously apply either given that you can hit ~114dB without compression which suggests distortion is unlikely to be an issue at that level, I think the highest output I've seen demanded by an actual film is ~120dB at reference for the EoT sweeps so you have headroom over and above even that scene
3 is impossible to judge from REW, it is certainly true that people seem to a nearfield sub so if you're in a concrete bunker then this could be a nice upgrade

to confirm 2 then you could post distortion graphs for that +5MV sweep
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post #12627 of 12866 Old 12-10-2014, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by T0S View Post
Sorry I haven't responded yet - absolutely taking in your comments back to the REW SIM and then looking to see if there is another sub posiion I should try before I report back the results. It'll have to be this weekend.

Based on you comments, I'll try to reduce the 50Hz peaks at least to see if Audyssey will then do a better job in the low bass range as per the attachment
50Hz looks better, but 25 Hz is still an issue. Are there reasons you can't consider moving the MLP forward? The 25 Hz peak must be noticeable. Maybe you aren't interested in very low bass?
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post #12628 of 12866 Old 12-10-2014, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
there are 3 reasons I can think of for adding moar subs

1) FR improvements
2) headroom (i.e. reduce distortion at your chosen listening level)
3) increased tactile feel

clearly 1 doesn't apply (and you may even make it worse)
2 doesn't obviously apply either given that you can hit ~114dB without compression which suggests distortion is unlikely to be an issue at that level, I think the highest output I've seen demanded by an actual film is ~120dB at reference for the EoT sweeps so you have headroom over and above even that scene
3 is impossible to judge from REW, it is certainly true that people seem to a nearfield sub so if you're in a concrete bunker then this could be a nice upgrade

to confirm 2 then you could post distortion graphs for that +5MV sweep
Thanks so much for the detail explanation. It does make lot of sense. I see if I can try that compression sweeps again that includes +5 sweep as I have not with my latest subs placement. Looking back at my +5MV sweep, I was average about 110db with a few rises up to 115dbs. I understand where to look for compression but what I am not certain is that when looking at the highest sweep, do you look at its peak output or its average one?
I was surprised that I have more tactile feeling now than when I had one sub near field. Probably because I upped another +3db in my low shelf filter. Since you also use jriver, I have bandwidth set at 1 for my 35hz +6db gain low shelf. Have you played with low shelf in jriver? I am not so sure q=1 is correct/good (the reason I want to use REW to measure jriver output some day). Thanks again.
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post #12629 of 12866 Old 12-10-2014, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Thanks so much for the detail explanation. It does make lot of sense. I see if I can try that compression sweeps again that includes +5 sweep as I have not with my latest subs placement. Looking back at my +5MV sweep, I was average about 110db with a few rises up to 115dbs. I understand where to look for compression but what I am not certain is that when looking at the highest sweep, do you look at its peak output or its average one?
compression will show up as a reduction in output. Take the audioholics review of the SB13 for example

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer...iew_fullscreen

the response severely compresses between 20-40Hz from the red line (110dB) indicating that the sub must employ some boost centred on ~25-30Hz and that then combines with some limiter to prevent it being overloaded. The response then becomes the typical sealed sub response (with a much higher rolloff) rather than the boosted to flat response shape at lower output levels.

IIRC yours didn't show any evidence of this showing that you had headroom for ~110-115dB. Checking the distortion at those levels will give another indication of stress.

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Probably because I upped another +3db in my low shelf filter. Since you also use jriver, I have bandwidth set at 1 for my 35hz +6db gain low shelf. Have you played with low shelf in jriver? I am not so sure q=1 is correct/good (the reason I want to use REW to measure jriver output some day). Thanks again.
this thread explains how the LS works in jriver - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88589.0 - and gives you a link to the minidsp spreadsheet which lets you play around with how it works. This was one of my old measurements showing a +10dB LS at 30Hz with Q=0.5 or Q=1

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The LS you have will basically rise 6dB from ~50 to ~20Hz.
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post #12630 of 12866 Old 12-10-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
IIRC yours didn't show any evidence of this showing that you had headroom for ~110-115dB. Checking the distortion at those levels will give another indication of stress.
It sure did not with my last subs location. I will run another sweep with my current subs location and post with distortion graph


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
this thread explains how the LS works in jriver - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88589.0 - and gives you a link to the minidsp spreadsheet which lets you play around with how it works. This was one of my old measurements showing a +10dB LS at 30Hz with Q=0.5 or Q=1
Attachment 413073
The LS you have will basically rise 6dB from ~50 to ~20Hz
Thanks for the link. Definitely will read it. Is the LS graph you posted the output from jriver? I really need to measure my jriver output to see at what frequency I reach 6db gain on my 35Hz LS.

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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
2 doesn't obviously apply either given that you can hit ~114dB without compression which suggests distortion is unlikely to be an issue at that level, I think the highest output I've seen demanded by an actual film is ~120dB at reference for the EoT sweeps so you have headroom over and above even that scene
So you were looking at the peak in that +5MV graph, right? cuz the average is ~110db. I still dont understand the 120db at reference for Edge of Tomorrow part where you mentioned I have headroom over and above that scene. How does hitting 114db without compression translate to having over and above headroom for the 120db EoT scene? Thanks so much.
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