Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 428 - AVS Forum
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post #12811 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That is an actual room. Typical basement European style.
Well that sure makes me feel better about mine.

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post #12812 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
OK, when you have the REW preferences screen open and click the Output drop-down box, how many HDMI output channels does it show? If only two, then you have 2.0 support. If eight channels, then you have 7.1 support.

TBH, being able to configure PLII when using one input and not the AUX input just doesn't make any sense to me. Please try again.
I see 8 channels. I have tried many times. Connecting to pc doesn't show PLII but with ps3 it does. If in ps3, you set it up to Bit-Stream then it reacts the same. In other words, if ps3 is decoding then avr doesn't show PLII and only has Multi Channel available. But if ps3 is set to Linear PCM, then ps3 is just passing code and ave decodes it and then can show all sorts of surround options.

Based on that, it seems like my pc is decoding before its sending signal to pc may be?
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post #12813 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 12:43 PM
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Ok you have 8-channel support. When you select HDMI Out 3 in REW Preferences, what speaker produces the test tone?
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post #12814 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 12:48 PM
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You might want to try just using the headphone out of the pc and rca cables to the avr to get a "simple" stereo signal that you can change to PLII.

http://www.amazon.com/Hometheatre-Fe...k+to+rca+cable

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post #12815 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
This HDMI does support 7.1 since I can go to playback configuration and during configuration can see all 7 speakers. Running a test (in that screen) also produces sound thru center speaker.
Change that configuration screen to stereo.

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post #12816 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Run a signal from REW (pink noise, whatever) to the AVR using channels 1&2 (FL/R) and I bet you will then be able to select PLII.
That kinda worked. In other words I'm able to get center speaker working but it had nothing to do with setting FL/R and then changing in avr.

To get center working, I had to switch from stereo to Muliti Channel 7.1. This allows me to be able to send output to any who speakers. Selecting 3 will send singal to Center but only when Multi Channel is selected. I coudln't get PLII in the list but am able to get center working by selecting Multi Channel.
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post #12817 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 01:00 PM
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Which is how it's supposed to work.
Now let's see some graphs!

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post #12818 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
To get center working, I had to switch from stereo to Muliti Channel 7.1. This allows me to be able to send output to any who speakers. Selecting 3 will send singal to Center but only when Multi Channel is selected. I coudln't get PLII in the list but am able to get center working by selecting Multi Channel.
Well, then you have it working as it should. Switching the AVR to PLII is just a workaround if your PC and AVR don't "communicate" via 8 channel HDMI but only over 2 channels.

Markus

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post #12819 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Well, then you have it working as it should. Switching the AVR to PLII is just a workaround if your PC and AVR don't "communicate" via 8 channel HDMI but only over 2 channels.
I finally figured out why I wasn't able to see PLII. It's not PC. It's REW. If I connect pc and check surround options, I see all of them. Once I connect REW and check options, I see limited ones without PLII.

So now, I can have any two speakers outputting at the same time. Since I can't select PLII after rew is launched, there is no way for me to produce output to L/C/R.

For water fall, we don't need center according to guide. I'm using L/R + subs for it. I still don't know why guide asks to select L/R + subs for water fall and not all front speakers.
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post #12820 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Back to the discussion regarding mic calibration, either manual or using the sensitivity parameter, I conducted a quick test this morning since I had the REW kit set up for a different project.

First, I manually calibrated my UMIK-1 using an RS SPL and ran a measurement using the REW tone generator (Pink noise at -12dBFS). I then loaded the calibration file with the sensitivity parameter, re-cycled REW, and ran the same tone using the tone generator. Here are the results:





As you can see, there is a distinct 3dB difference. This is using the latest REW beta 23. Not sure why there is a difference, and this only affects those who care about SPL as an absolute value. For relative measurements, the difference has no impact.
I measured my umik-1 + cal file with sensivity parameter with a Bruel&Kjaer Sound Level Calibrator Type 4230. It outputs a 94dB 1000Hz sine wave for calibrating B&K sound level meters.
With level set at 1.000 (100% windows input level) the REW spl meter shows 94dB spl.
Setting the level at 0.5, 0.25 or 0.1 ( = -6dB, -12dB or -20dB) gets you extra headroom in the mic input channel allowing higher spl measurements.
Regardless of the input level setting the REW spl meter is always indicating around 94dB spl. Well within +/- 0.5dB

Last edited by Frank Derks; Yesterday at 03:00 PM. Reason: added info
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post #12821 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Which is how it's supposed to work.
Now let's see some graphs!
Here they are :-). After setting right level, I took readings again as follows

1 - Without Audyssey
2 - With Audyssey/ Without Dynamics
2 - With Audyssey/ With Dynamics

As Alan P and Markus pointed out that dynamics should be off, I wanted to show how having it on effects. Attached graphs clearly shows that Audyssey was doing fine with Dynamics off and with On, it threw off the graph
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@Frank Derks

While you don't explicitly say so, you are using the UMIK-1 with a sensitivity parameter in the calibration file, correct? If yes, this would suggest that the 3dB difference I observed in my test is attributable to the RS SPL meter, which would not come as a surprise to me. In fact, hearing your confirmation that the UMIK-1 is indeed reading sound levels correctly would be reassuring to many thread participants with this mic. Thanks for your feedback.
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post #12823 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Here they are :-). After setting right level, I took readings again as follows

1 - Without Audyssey
2 - With Audyssey/ Without Dynamics
2 - With Audyssey/ With Dynamics

As Alan P and Markus pointed out that dynamics should be off, I wanted to show how having it on effects. Attached graphs clearly shows that Audyssey was doing fine with Dynamics off and with On, it threw off the graph
Once again Sheraz, I ask if your noise floor is really 45db because that would be considered pretty low. Have you measured your noise floor? If not, measure it and set the bottom limit to the measured noise floor (typically around 50-55db).

And again, set the waterfall window to 450ms, not 400.

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post #12824 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
I finally figured out why I wasn't able to see PLII. It's not PC. It's REW. If I connect pc and check surround options, I see all of them. Once I connect REW and check options, I see limited ones without PLII.

So now, I can have any two speakers outputting at the same time. Since I can't select PLII after rew is launched, there is no way for me to produce output to L/C/R.
Not sure I follow. PLII is a mode which is available in your AVR not your PC. It allows you to upmix a 2 channel input to more than two speakers.
Output a 8 channel multi PCM signal from your PC and have your AVR recognize it as such. Then you can select any of those 8 channels in REW and have the test signal sent to the matching speaker ouput.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
For water fall, we don't need center according to guide. I'm using L/R + subs for it. I still don't know why guide asks to select L/R + subs for water fall and not all front speakers.
Waterfall graphs are most useful at low frequencies, i.e. subwoofers. Equally interesting is the splice between the front speakers and the sub(s), i.e. L+SW, R+SW, C+SW, L+R+SW and L+R+S+SW.

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post #12825 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
@Frank Derks

While you don't explicitly say so, you are using the UMIK-1 with a sensitivity parameter in the calibration file, correct? If yes, this would suggest that the 3dB difference I observed in my test is attributable to the RS SPL meter, which would not come as a surprise to me. In fact, hearing your confirmation that the UMIK-1 is indeed reading sound levels correctly would be reassuring to many thread participants with this mic. Thanks for your feedback.

Yes, with the calibration file sensitivity parameter.


(Edited my post to mention the cal file explicitly)

Last edited by Frank Derks; Yesterday at 03:03 PM.
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post #12826 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Once again Sheraz, I ask if your noise floor is really 45db because that would be considered pretty low. Have you measured your noise floor? If not, measure it and set the bottom limit to the measured noise floor (typically around 50-55db).

And again, set the waterfall window to 450ms, not 400.
I followed the guide to measure the noise. With calibrated file in use, SPL Meter from REW shows 31-33db. It seems low. So I cleared out the file, calibrated rew using an Radio Shack SPL meter to match at 80. Then when I recorded floor noise using REW SPL Meter, it shows 37 on average. RTA is somewhere in b/w 39-42.
So what does it mean? Should I be setting fater fall lower range to 40? According to you, it is usually around 50-55. Am I missing something?
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post #12827 of 12840 Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM
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Well, you've got a really quiet room...nothing wrong with that.

Just wanted to make sure you weren't making your waterfalls look worse than they should is all.

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post #12828 of 12840 Unread Yesterday, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
I followed the guide to measure the noise. With calibrated file in use, SPL Meter from REW shows 31-33db. It seems low. So I cleared out the file, calibrated rew using an Radio Shack SPL meter to match at 80. Then when I recorded floor noise using REW SPL Meter, it shows 37 on average. RTA is somewhere in b/w 39-42.
So what does it mean? Should I be setting fater fall lower range to 40? According to you, it is usually around 50-55. Am I missing something?
I bet you if you put in the sensitive factor line in your calibration file, your floor noise will jump up to 52db plus.
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post #12829 of 12840 Unread Yesterday, 05:43 PM
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I bet you if you put in the sensitive factor line in your calibration file, your floor noise will jump up to 52db plus.
Ok. Where do I get that data from? If that's true, It'd only make me happier since the only area I see decay is at 40 and below 35.

I do have the calibration from. I'm using UMM-6 mic. I contacted them about 90 degree calibration file and they said that the only file they have is what I can download from their site. That's the one I'm using.
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post #12830 of 12840 Unread Yesterday, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Ok. Where do I get that data from? If that's true, It'd only make me happier since the only area I see decay is at 40 and below 35.

I do have the calibration from. I'm using UMM-6 mic. I contacted them about 90 degree calibration file and they said that the only file they have is what I can download from their site. That's the one I'm using.
The guide (which seems to be the most neglected reference here lately) has a section describing where to download the sensitivity parameter and how to insert it into the calibration file. The fact that you are using a zero-degree calibration file doesn't matter (other than revealing that you didn't follow the recommendation regarding where to purchase your mic, which is also covered in the guide).
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I'm about to share with you guys a very interesting experiment.
I started treating my room about a week ago. Someone (a friend of mine locally) told me to make bass traps using R-30. They come in 4" wide. He asked me to double them and cover from floor to ceiling. So I made two bass traps 8" thick each. Before I installed them, anther friend (from forum) told me to cover all the area behind my acoustically transparent screen (Left/Right/Ceiling) with 1" thick LinAccoustic material and then add 6mm plastic (I can't remember the exact name) and then add another layer of LinAccoustic (basically a sandwich of LinAccoustic with that plastic in b/w). So I went a head and did that. Then I added bass traps.

Now these being in place, I started taking reading and I could see good result that I shared with you guys in some previous posts. But there was this nasty dip around 80-90. I couldn't figure out the reason. I moved speakers all around but that won't go. Then I though, what if these bass traps are causing it. I took them out and took reading. Wallaaa. That dip is gone. Well what about decay then???? Compared water fall with/without bass traps and no difference.

So basically these R-30 8" bass traps were trapping 80-90 :-). Lesson learned: Don't over treat your room :-) Thanks to REW, it was much easier to spot it. Here are the graphs to show the difference.
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post #12832 of 12840 Unread Yesterday, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The guide (which seems to be the most neglected reference here lately) has a section describing where to download the sensitivity parameter and how to insert it into the calibration file. The fact that you are using a zero-degree calibration file doesn't matter (other than revealing that you didn't follow the recommendation regarding where to purchase your mic, which is also covered in the guide).
Please don't think that I am not reading the guide. Just because someone reads it doesn't mean that he/she completely understands it completely as well. Even if I do understand it, I prefer to ask to make sure my understanding is correct.

I did buy UMM-6 from cross-spectrum. I just can't find the usb that it came with. I also asked here if someone can share the file and you told me that it's not that important by pointing to the post you made that shows the difference in b/w 90 degrees vs calibrated files. Here is your response Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs

Since your post points out that the difference is not noticeable below 10khz, I decided to move on. Then that very recent post came and pointed out that I'd see the difference. So it got me thinking as to what file is he referring that can make a difference in low frequency.

I hope this clarify that I'm not posting questions here without reading the guide. I think the guide is amazing and a must read.
Thanks.

Last edited by SherazNJ; Yesterday at 07:23 PM.
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post #12833 of 12840 Unread Yesterday, 08:12 PM
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My comment was about how to download and insert the sensitivity parameter, not the validity of the zero-degree calibration file.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
I followed the guide to measure the noise. With calibrated file in use, SPL Meter from REW shows 31-33db. It seems low. So I cleared out the file, calibrated rew using an Radio Shack SPL meter to match at 80. Then when I recorded floor noise using REW SPL Meter, it shows 37 on average. RTA is somewhere in b/w 39-42.
So what does it mean? Should I be setting fater fall lower range to 40? According to you, it is usually around 50-55. Am I missing something?
The noise floor measured with an SPL meter or RTA doesn't directly translate to the noise floor in the waterfall due to the swept sine measurement technique used by REW.
To get a better idea of what is noise and what is useful data it can help to measure the same situation twice. If the graph changes between measurements then what you're seeing is certainly noise.

Markus

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post #12835 of 12840 Unread Today, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
The noise floor measured with an SPL meter or RTA doesn't directly translate to the noise floor in the waterfall due to the swept sine measurement technique used by REW.
To get a better idea of what is noise and what is useful data it can help to measure the same situation twice. If the graph changes between measurements then what you're seeing is certainly noise.
This is a AHA moment. Each time I changed my subs position, I took reading like 3 times to see how graph around 40Hz changing at the same position. I didn't know why it was happening but at the same location, REW would show some decay at 40 Hz and sometimes it shrinks and sometimes it grew. I thought it was my mic. Now I know that its my room.

So most likely my room noise is around 45-50. I wonder if I should just order another mic :-).

Anyway, assuming my room noise is 45, I'll set the lower limit to 45. But, why do we do that? I mean why do we want to set lower limit where room noise is minimal? When we are watching movies, that room noise will still be there and cause ringing. Shouldn't that be handled as well?

thx.
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^
That amount of noise floor is pretty normal. It's mostly low frequency noise so our ears can't hear it.

Markus

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
That amount of noise floor is pretty normal. It's mostly low frequency noise so our ears can't hear it.
So in other words, ignore all ringing in water fall below floor noise? If that's the case, my room is in good shape as far as ringing is concerned.
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^
"I told you so"

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^
"I told you so"
You sure did sir :-)
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The general rule I adhere to is to ignore data more than 30db down, certainly 40db, unless it is happening very late in time. What constitutes very late depends on the frequency in question. -30db down at 300ms at 1k is very different than at 40hz for example.

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