Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post


On the full range sweeps, Audyssey created a big dip between 90-170hz. This is the "meat" of the mid-bass, correct?

 

 

Alan,

 

Any theories on what could be causing the big dip in the Audyssey measurement?  Keep in mind that Audyssey averages the input over the eight microphone placements.  I suspect that there is a huge suck-out somewhere other than the MLP that is causing the Audyssey dip.  You could verify this by taking a full frequency sweep at each of the eight spots where you place the Audyssey mic during calibration.  Perhaps you could try this and report back?

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post #1262 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Looks like you are OK now, Keith.  And the noise floor is consistent with what others are seeing.

 

@ Everyone, let's learn from Keith's experience.  I have seen the same thing happen many times on my laptop--a Windows Audio setting that I had set previously gets changed to a different value, thus affecting REW performance.  I use the same laptop for Audyssey Pro calibrations, and after running Pro, I have found the Windows Audio settings changed.

 

My advice:  Every time you are going to run a new REW session, check the Windows Audio settings before loading REW.  You want to have a consistent, known starting point.  Trust me--it is worth the extra minute or two of your time.

 

VERY good points here.  I neglected to mention that when I did my first REW measurements with the OM mic that I set the microphone input level to 80 (per the guide at the time).  When I setup my UMM-6 mic, I set it to 60 (again, per the guide as it was evolving).  The very next time I went to use REW, the mic recording level was "mysteriously" changed to something much lower and I got the headroom error.  This is when I discovered that my FR graphs were not affected by the mic recording level as long as it was providing enough headroom so in my opinion, even if the mic recording level is too high, there is no discernible difference in a 1/24th, 1/12th, or 1/6th smoothed FR curve.

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post #1263 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

Jerry - I am reading a noise floor of about 50dB. It is, in reality, about 40dB. Same issue as everyone (if it is an issue).

 

Looks like you are OK now, Keith.  And the noise floor is consistent with what others are seeing.

 

@ Everyone, let's learn from Keith's experience.  I have seen the same thing happen many times on my laptop--a Windows Audio setting that I had set previously gets changed to a different value, thus affecting REW performance.  I use the same laptop for Audyssey Pro calibrations, and after running Pro, I have found the Windows Audio settings changed.

 

My advice:  Every time you are going to run a new REW session, check the Windows Audio settings before loading REW.  You want to have a consistent, known starting point.  Trust me--it is worth the extra minute or two of your time.

 

@Keith:  thanks for sharing your experience.  I couldn't have scripted it any better!

You can be sure I will double check it in future!!

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post #1264 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Have you actually tried your suggestion yourself?  This is exactly the problem I described in my earlier post with the warning that the levels are too low - I have deleted my post but it is quoted in Jerry's very helpful reply. My level was set at 6 and renders REW useless. It needs to be set at or about 100 as in the Guide.

Yup. That's how I cured my problem.

The output volume level to the AVR's AUX in (PC stereo headphone out to AVR AUX stereo in), as you suggest, needs to be set to one hundred but the microphone gain (recording input) needs to be set to between one and four. They're two different settings. In Xonar, the computer's soundcard, at the mixer level (a third independent setting), the playback sliders are set to 63.
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post #1265 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Just got my minidsp umik1 and it is showing the same 1khz and harmonics spikes. Haven't had a chance to compare it to my CSL calibrated EMM6 yet. Will probably be sending it to CSL for a full calibration report before I do much testing.



-Mike

FWIW, my bet, the recording gains are too high. Things to check if using Windows would be, the microphone input on Windows. Right click your on screen speaker icon and then, while the microphone is connected, left click "Recording devices." Set the gain to between 1 and 4. Doing this should reduce the noise greatly. Also, to keep recording sensitivity up, I set the master control volume to -10 and this keeps recording levels up and doesn't introduce gain noise into the recording.
 

 

Have you actually tried your suggestion yourself?  This is exactly the problem I described in my earlier post with the warning that the levels are too low - I have deleted my post but it is quoted in Jerry's very helpful reply. My level was set at 6 and renders REW useless. It needs to be set at or about 100 as in the Guide.

 

I can also confirm (per previous posts on the mic recording level error in REW) that I compared several FR curves at varying mic recording levels and could see no appreciable difference in FR once the graph was smoothed to even 1/24th as long as the minimum headroom requirement was achieved (for me this was a mic recording level greater than 75).  Unfortunately, I didn't save the measurements as I don't recall if the peaks actually reduced as I approached the minimum headroom requirement for REW to function but I can say for sure that a mic recording level that is set too low will not yield a meaningful FR curve (as REW itself warns when trying to doing so).

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post #1266 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Have you actually tried your suggestion yourself?  This is exactly the problem I described in my earlier post with the warning that the levels are too low - I have deleted my post but it is quoted in Jerry's very helpful reply. My level was set at 6 and renders REW useless. It needs to be set at or about 100 as in the Guide.

Yup. That's how I cured my problem.

The output volume level to the AVR's AUX in (PC stereo headphone out to AVR AUX stereo in), as you suggest, needs to be set to one hundred but the microphone gain (recording input) needs to be set to between one and four. They're two different settings. In Xonar, the computer's soundcard, at the mixer level (a third independent setting), the playback sliders are set to 63.

Just so we're all clear, this is the setting in Windows that we're talking about:

 

No idea what you mean by 1 to 4 setting.  Is that with a USB mic?

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post #1267 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

I can also confirm (per previous posts on the mic recording level error in REW) that I compared several FR curves at varying mic recording levels and could see no appreciable difference in FR once the graph was smoothed to even 1/24th as long as the minimum headroom requirement was achieved (for me this was a mic recording level greater than 75).  Unfortunately, I didn't save the measurements as I don't recall if the peaks actually reduced as I approached the minimum headroom requirement for REW to function but I can say for sure that a mic recording level that is set too low will not yield a meaningful FR curve (as REW itself warns when trying to doing so).

Agreeing with you, I think, after calibrating the Phantom Power Supply and the computers sound card, I found that if I raised the recording device gain to +17, there wasn't noticeable distortion and I could raise and achieve the required headroom. On my system, if raised higher, then I went into the orange and red zones; which IIRC would indicate the introduction of distortion.
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post #1268 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

FWIW, my bet, the recording gains are too high. Things to check if using Windows would be, the microphone input on Windows. Right click your on screen speaker icon and then, while the microphone is connected, left click "Recording devices." Set the gain to between 1 and 4. Doing this should reduce the noise greatly. Also, to keep recording sensitivity up, I set the master control volume to -10 and this keeps recording levels up and doesn't introduce gain noise into the recording.

If using a Phantom Power Supply, check the input gain and if you can, lower it. Also, if you're able, connect a headphone set to the Phanton Power Supply so you can monitor the signal. As you turn the gain to the input microphone up, you should be able to hear the threshold where line level noise jumps, at which point, then turn it down a skunch. For our situation, that's about as good as it gets.

And ya gotta love how the EMM6 comes with it's very own, downloadable, microphone specific, calibration chart/graph.

Not sure you understand what that screenshot is showing. First, the mic I used, a minidsp umik1, is a usb mic so there is no external sound card with phantom power involved. It was not a measurement sweep, just an RTA capture of the room's noise floor so the master volume is not relevant. I just wanted to see if the umik also had the 1khz spikes so I did not calibrate the SPL and did not check the microphone level. Not sure what you mean by the microphone gain as I have no option to change the gain on the mic through windows but it is showing as 0db. Checking now, the wave in volume for the mic was at a fairly low setting. The measurement was taken connected to my main desktop system which has a couple of noisy fans so I am not surprised with all of the noise.

Lastly, as I posted, I purchased my EMM6 from CSL with a premium plus calibration, Cross Spectrum Labs, so I received a much more thorough calibration report on CD then what you get from Parts Express / Dayton

-Mike
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post #1269 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

 

@AJ:  Did you by chance happen to download my latest mdat files?  I was curious if you were able to make anything out of waterfall plots?  I've been playing around using the guide as a reference but I'm not sure which sets of measurments are the most meaningful (i.e. sub only, L+sub, R+sub, L+R+sub etc.) for generating waterfalls?  It's pretty clear that I have a major issue at 30 Hz (even with the sub relocated to the mid front wall):

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I'm not a waterfall expert either.  Looking at two measurements (#8 and #17), the first one looks better to me.  Looking at the waterfall associated with #8:

 

 

I see a lot of ringing below ~45Hz.  If you narrow the time window below 600ms, say to 400ms, then the ringing issues persist all the way up to 80-90Hz.  Bass treatments may help here.  However, I would focus on the 10dB dip from 90Hz to 160Hz before doing anything else.  That is a pretty important frequency range, which provides "bottom" and "punch".

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post #1270 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Agreeing with you, I think, after calibrating the Phantom Power Supply and the computers sound card, I found that if I raised the recording device gain to +17, there wasn't noticeable distortion and I could raise and achieve the required headroom. On my system, if raised higher, then I went into the orange and red zones; which IIRC would indicate the introduction of distortion.

 

BeeMan, we are focusing on USB microphones in this thread.  When you start talking about phantom power and soundcards, it sounds like you have what I call a "legacy" REW setup.  While what you are advising may be perfectly good advice for legacy configurations, it has no relevance here when using a USB microphone.  Does this make sense?

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post #1271 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Just so we're all clear, this is the setting in Windows that we're talking about:



No idea what you mean by 1 to 4 setting.  Is that with a USB mic?

I'm guessing that screenshot is from windows 7? Just an FYI, I'm running windows XP and the microphone level adjustment is slightly different. There is no microphone property screen. For a USB mic You need to use the wave in volume control for the appropriate recording device.

For the UMIK microphone, there are two ways to get to the correct volume adjustment. First way is to goto control panel>>Sounds and Audio Devices>>Select the Audio tab>> Click on volume under Sound recording section. Here is a screenshot



The other way is to bring up the main windows volume control from the system tray, goto options>>properties>>select the correct recording device. In my case, it is the UMIK. This brings up the correct wave in volume slider.



-Mike
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post #1272 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:18 PM
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I figure that anybody who's commenting on something I've commented on is like me, long forgotten. tongue.gif

Did you try connecting the PC into a power cord that connects to the same supply as the AVR? Next time I connect things, that's what I'll be doing so I have the same main service based breaker ground being used. If I haven't already, good luck. wink.gif

Nope, haven't tried that yet. Like I said, the hum doesn't even show up on my graphs unless I drop below the noise floor. Before I replaced my cable that goes from my PC to my AVR, it was much much worse.
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post #1273 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by baniels View Post

You could try experimenting with the sub distance in the AVR settings. Just do sweep after sweep, naming each measurement with the sub's distance setting. See if you can get that to go away.
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post


Subs + L/R, Audyssey ON/OFF overlayed:



On the full range sweeps, Audyssey created a big dip between 90-170hz. This is the "meat" of the mid-bass, correct?

/quote]

Thanks baniels - I did do that pre-Audyssey but haven't tried it post-Audyssey. I'll give it a go tonight!
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post #1274 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:28 PM
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Considering your "that just ain't happening" reply yesterday to my suggestion, I'm glad you changed your mind and tried it out. Did you put two of the same subs near your seating or two different subs?

biggrin.gif:D:D

You know how it is with this sickness we all suffer from. smile.gif

I tried many different combinations, but ended up with 2 different subs behind me, 1 new, 1 old. The other new 1 is up front. Sounds pretty darn good, although it was pretty late when I got done and couldn't really crank it up.
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post #1275 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:30 PM
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Considering your "that just ain't happening" reply yesterday to my suggestion, I'm glad you changed your mind and tried it out. Did you put two of the same subs near your seating or two different subs?

Now you got me thinking - the one combo I didn't try is all 3 subs on the back wall. Think that would be worth trying??
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post #1276 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Just so we're all clear, this is the setting in Windows that we're talking about:



No idea what you mean by 1 to 4 setting.  Is that with a USB mic?

No, I'm using a corded microphone connection with a Phantom Power Supply using XLR cables.
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post #1277 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Have you actually tried your suggestion yourself?  This is exactly the problem I described in my earlier post with the warning that the levels are too low - I have deleted my post but it is quoted in Jerry's very helpful reply. My level was set at 6 and renders REW useless. It needs to be set at or about 100 as in the Guide.

Yup. That's how I cured my problem.

The output volume level to the AVR's AUX in (PC stereo headphone out to AVR AUX stereo in), as you suggest, needs to be set to one hundred but the microphone gain (recording input) needs to be set to between one and four. They're two different settings. In Xonar, the computer's soundcard, at the mixer level (a third independent setting), the playback sliders are set to 63.

 

 

Soundcard? Stereo headphone out? I think you’re in the wrong thread - this thread is for REW with USB mic and HDMI (as the name suggests).

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post #1278 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Just so we're all clear, this is the setting in Windows that we're talking about:

 

No idea what you mean by 1 to 4 setting.  Is that with a USB mic?

 

That's the critter. I had 6 set there. SIx!!!  No wonder REW said I was level-deficient :)

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Does this make sense?

Yes. It means I'm not in Kansas and I went through the wrong door when a link brought me to the middle of this thread. tongue.gif

Sorry for any miscommunication my efforts introduced. Exit stage Left. biggrin.gif

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Soundcard? Stereo headphone out? I think you’re in the wrong thread - this thread is for REW with USB mic and HDMI (as the name suggests).

Yup! Just got clued in, in the post above my reply to you. Using the EXIT door, right here, to the stage Left. biggrin.gif
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post #1280 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 01:48 PM
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Just an FYI, I'm running windows XP..

-Mike

 

Really?  That must make a lot of things seem like an uphill struggle, Mike.  I'll venture to say you are in the minority here.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Alan,

Any theories on what could be causing the big dip in the Audyssey measurement?  Keep in mind that Audyssey averages the input over the eight microphone placements.  I suspect that there is a huge suck-out somewhere other than the MLP that is causing the Audyssey dip.  You could verify this by taking a full frequency sweep at each of the eight spots where you place the Audyssey mic during calibration.  Perhaps you could try this and report back?

Well, now that you mention it - when I re-ran Audyssey last night, it was late and I just wanted to get it done, so I only did 4 positions and they were all within a foot of the MLP. I should probably spread 'em out a bit more, huh? cool.gif
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Soundcard? Stereo headphone out? I think you’re in the wrong thread - this thread is for REW with USB mic and HDMI (as the name suggests).

Not meaning to offend, but because I use a legacy connection from my PC to my AVR (can't get an HDMI long enough for a decent price), am I banned from this thread? Or, can I just not mention my "forbidden" connections?
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post #1283 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 02:09 PM
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Not meaning to offend, but because I use a legacy connection from my PC to my AVR (can't get an HDMI long enough for a decent price), am I banned from this thread? Or, can I just not mention my "forbidden" connections?
If he insists that to be the case the fix is simple enough: we create a new thread without such restrictions.

The meat of this topic is what to do with the data, not how to configure PCs in a certain way. We should not censor discussion on that basis but again, if people feel strongly about that it is trivial to create a new thread. I am happy to start it if needed.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Soundcard? Stereo headphone out? I think you’re in the wrong thread - this thread is for REW with USB mic and HDMI (as the name suggests).

Not meaning to offend, but because I use a legacy connection from my PC to my AVR (can't get an HDMI long enough for a decent price), am I banned from this thread? Or, can I just not mention my "forbidden" connections?

 

No worries AP...we had this discussion "pages" ago!  The non-HDMI route is now officially covered in the setup guide so the only real prerequisite here is a USB mic!

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post #1285 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 02:18 PM
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If he insists that to be the case the fix is simple enough: we create a new thread without such restrictions.

The meat of this topic is what to do with the data, not how to configure PCs in a certain way. We should not censor discussion on that basis but again, if people feel strongly about that it is trivial to create a new thread. I am happy to start it if needed.

 

I disagree completely, Amir.  We established this thread with the intent of using simplified REW setups in order to swiftly move to where everyone is focusing on measuring, analyzing, and correcting.  We can't afford having someone making setup recommendations that clearly pertain to legacy REW setups, because problems with those setup have given REW a reputation for being difficult to master.  The same goes for trying to configure REW to run on Windows XP, which is clearly an outdated operating system.  If you want to create a new thread, then you are certainly welcome to do so.  It is not our intention to exclude anyone, just to stay focused on minimizing REW complexities.

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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

 

No worries AP...we had this discussion "pages" ago!  The non-HDMI route is now officially covered in the setup guide so the only real prerequisite here is a USB mic!

 

+1.  Unfortunately, not everyone has a laptop with HDMI, and using the headphone jack instead is not a significant departure from what we are doing.  If, however, you had a laptop without a USB connection, that would be a different story...

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Recently got a Dayton usb mic, and I was able to get some response readings.

I was not able to get the ASIO plugin to work consistently, but the java one works fine outputting thru hdmi.

This is what I got in my oddly configured and untreated room:

Mains 40 Hz xover + Subs





 
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post #1288 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 02:49 PM
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For what it's worth, an older laptop of mine had no HDMI, but it had DisplayPort. I was, with some trouble, able to get surround audio out via this connection using an DisplayPort->HDMI adapter. If someone is in this boat, it might be worth the few dollars to try.
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post #1289 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 03:21 PM
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Soundcard? Stereo headphone out? I think you’re in the wrong thread - this thread is for REW with USB mic and HDMI (as the name suggests).

Not meaning to offend, but because I use a legacy connection from my PC to my AVR (can't get an HDMI long enough for a decent price), am I banned from this thread? Or, can I just not mention my "forbidden" connections?

Nobody is banned from any thread (unless the Mods say so!) and of course, the resulting REW measurements are the same for legacy users. But there are numerous REW threads for legacy users and the title of this thread is very specific and clear. Sorry to sound snippy. I'm sure your overall contributions would be welcome wrt to the graphs and how to interpret them, but any remarks concerning the setup are going to fall on stony ground I think (as in the case of Beeman just above).

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post #1290 of 10741 Old 02-13-2013, 03:22 PM
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Soundcard? Stereo headphone out? I think you’re in the wrong thread - this thread is for REW with USB mic and HDMI (as the name suggests).

Not meaning to offend, but because I use a legacy connection from my PC to my AVR (can't get an HDMI long enough for a decent price), am I banned from this thread? Or, can I just not mention my "forbidden" connections?

 

No worries AP...we had this discussion "pages" ago!  The non-HDMI route is now officially covered in the setup guide so the only real prerequisite here is a USB mic!

 

Good point - but phantom power, soundcards, stereo jacks etc etc are off limits are they not? ;)

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