Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 433 - AVS Forum

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Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

tvuong's Avatar tvuong
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^^ I don't remember seeing that with the x4000 device webpage setting. My other Denon 2312 allows changing ALL speaker levels on screen via its remote (level button)
AVSF458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry


I hear you. When I first started testing ASIO4ALL, I had the same problem in the ASIO control panel. My HD audio device was showing idle, and no amount of clicking would enable it. You may recall a previous posting of mine, where I reported that a completely fresh install of Windows cleared up this problem. IMO, the ASIO4ALL software is a bit flakey. I would hate to think that others like yourself would need to re-install,Windows to get it to work. However, if you haven't tried yet, you could uninstall and re- install ASIO4ALL to see if this helps.
Hi @AustinJerry , Thanks for the Guide. I am having the same issue in ASIO4ALL today where it either recognizes the Input or Output but not Both at the Same time in REW. I am going to try reinstalling ASIO, because I uninstalled it. I do get readings using JAVA but not studied far enough into the guide to see what they mean or if I can map each speaker as well and my Two subs individually and then the Two Subs together in JAVA.

Boy does this stuff take time. 6 Hours and I barely have it all installed. I hope if I can make ASIO work then it is downhill from there.
artur9's Avatar artur9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSF458 View Post
Boy does this stuff take time. 6 Hours and I barely have it all installed. I hope if I can make ASIO work then it is downhill from there.
The first measurement is by far the most difficult and time consuming. I think it took me several days to get everything running correctly.

Now that I know what I'm doing I can setup/measure/teardown in under an hour. Which I need to do because when the rest of the family is out shopping is the best time to measure - no elephants stomping through the house ;-)
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry
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You can be perfectly functional using the Java drivers, but keep trying to get ASIO to work.
AVSF458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You can be perfectly functional using the Java drivers, but keep trying to get ASIO to work.
A Buddy advised me to reboot after the reinstall and ASIO works now.

Now I have to review how to balance my subs. What charts can I Post to get some help on how to balance out the two subs? It looks like when both are working together I am getting a huge 15 db dip in the 50HZ range. I am using them with their own iNuke6000DSP and a Denon 4520Ci AVR.

I agree the best time to measure when the family is out. It is not a Ladies' favorite.

Thanks for that wonderful guide. I think in hindsight it was fairly painless because of it.
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSF458 View Post
A Buddy advised me to reboot after the reinstall and ASIO works now.

Now I have to review how to balance my subs. What charts can I Post to get some help on how to balance out the two subs? It looks like when both are working together I am getting a huge 15 db dip in the 50HZ range. I am using them with their own iNuke6000DSP and a Denon 4520Ci AVR.

I agree the best time to measure when the family is out. It is not a Ladies' favorite.

Thanks for that wonderful guide. I think in hindsight it was fairly painless because of it.
I need to go back and check, but I thought a re-boot was one of the trouble-shooting recommendations.

As far as dialing in the subs, the procedure is pretty straight-forward. The first step is finding the best position for the subs, which you do by moving the subs around and running REW frequency sweeps (15-300Hz, no smoothing). It would help if you were to publish two measurements: the combined response of the two subs only, and the response of both subs working with the center channel, both 15-300Hz, no smoothing. And include in your post your room dimensions, which will tell us where your modes are. Even a quick sketch of your room layout, showing where speakers are located, where you sit, and other key features of the room. If you want help, there are a number of people here who are not shy about providing advice.
newc33's Avatar newc33
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looking for basic startup advice here. i just bought a mac computer (mac A1418) it does not have hdmi on it at all. can i still use REW? ill be using the mini dap umik 1. for computer connections i just have 4 usb ports and 2 thunderbolt ports which i guess if for connecting external display and high performance devices
cfraser's Avatar cfraser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Maybe it's just the newer ones, but the Marantz AVR7709 and AV7702 let you change speaker gains without the noise via the computer wifi interface. The Denon sisters (x5200, x7200) do the same.
Yes, Denon foolishly removed that capability from the 2013 models, then added it back to the 2014 ones after the hue and cry. There are so many strange things that are a step backwards with the 2013 models, things that probably took more effort to remove from their menu/selection designs than it would have been to just leave them in, that you really have to wonder.

[I use the X4000 as a pre-pro. It is otherwise fine, especially the XT32/Sub EQ. I don't adjust the speaker levels except very rarely for the ones they do easily allow in the regular menu. So I do kind of get where they were coming from re that, but still... ]
cfraser's Avatar cfraser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Oh boy. Changing the direction is a big pain for sure. Its not only changing but also making holes and putting the holders in there. My panels are easily lower than 1 inch from ceiling. Your description of material matches mine as well. I don't know though which one is good and which one is bad. When I bought them, they came 4 panels wrapped together and each is 2x4 with 4" thickness. They are not stiff like 703 fiberglass board but not completely fluffy as well.
They should be quite a bit lower than 1" from the ceiling, 4-6" would be better for 4" panels. That is why I put the 3" ones instead of the 4" ones: leaving the gap gave virtually the same measurements, and I thought the heavier 4" ones could be used more effectively somewhere else. As it turns out, I felt the room was already getting on the verge of too "dead", so they are spares for now.

Unless your room is only 6' wide, it is much better to put the panels across as much of the room width as possible. Sound doesn't just reflect off the middle 6' wide portion of the room! I know you know that, but I'm just saying you don't need a 6' or 4' "long" first reflection absorber in between you and the front speakers, 2' "long" will do just fine when well-placed, and it's better to get the whole room width absorbing.

I doubt you hate working on the ceiling stuff more than I do! And JIC, do not use wall anchors on the ceiling, even though the odd person may suggest it, use toggle-bolts or similar. Yes they need slightly larger holes, but IMO they don't look too bad when left unused, really easy to cover over if you're fussier than I am (just hammer them in a bit, then spackle to hide).
AVSF458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I need to go back and check, but I thought a re-boot was one of the trouble-shooting recommendations.

As far as dialing in the subs, the procedure is pretty straight-forward. The first step is finding the best position for the subs, which you do by moving the subs around and running REW frequency sweeps (15-300Hz, no smoothing). It would help if you were to publish two measurements: the combined response of the two subs only, and the response of both subs working with the center channel, both 15-300Hz, no smoothing. And include in your post your room dimensions, which will tell us where your modes are. Even a quick sketch of your room layout, showing where speakers are located, where you sit, and other key features of the room. If you want help, there are a number of people here who are not shy about providing advice.
I cannot seem to get the Center Channel to respond but here are a couple of Charts of the ALL SPL from Front Sub and then one with The Rear Sub(Brown line and the the Green Line is with them both Combined.

I measured them with the AVR at -10 and Audyssey Off and there was no gain setup for the SUBs they were at 0Db each. The AVR is the Denon4520Ci.

The Subs are DIY Stereo Integrity SI-18 in Marty Cubes running on their own iNuke6000DSP each. The INuke is set with the Standard recommendation from LTD02. HPF @20hz Butturworth12; Phase 0 Degrees; PEQ -2 @ 20Hz with a quality HS12; Power is set at 94V at 4Ohms ( SI's are 4Ohms) which equates to 1109Watts limit and the Dial on both INukes is at 1 O'Clock.

I could not get the Center Channel to come on so I could not combine that with the Subs and suggestions on which HDMI Channel to use for that?


Thanks in advance for your help.
Attached: both - measurement all spl -2 20hz 1100watts 94v at 4ohms.jpg (55.9 KB)  front measurement all spl -2 20hz 1100watts 94v at 4ohms.jpg (44.1 KB)  Room sketch.JPG (105.9 KB) 
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry
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Center channel should be HDMI Out 3.
SherazNJ's Avatar SherazNJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSF458 View Post
I cannot seem to get the Center Channel to respond but here are a couple of Charts of the ALL SPL from Front Sub and then one with The Rear Sub(Brown line and the the Green Line is with them both Combined.

I measured them with the AVR at -10 and Audyssey Off and there was no gain setup for the SUBs they were at 0Db each. The AVR is the Denon4520Ci.

The Subs are DIY Stereo Integrity SI-18 in Marty Cubes running on their own iNuke6000DSP each. The INuke is set with the Standard recommendation from LTD02. HPF @20hz Butturworth12; Phase 0 Degrees; PEQ -2 @ 20Hz with a quality HS12; Power is set at 94V at 4Ohms ( SI's are 4Ohms) which equates to 1109Watts limit and the Dial on both INukes is at 1 O'Clock.

I could not get the Center Channel to come on so I could not combine that with the Subs and suggestions on which HDMI Channel to use for that?


Thanks in advance for your help.
I had the issue with center channel. Here is what you do
1 - Go to Preferences and select third option from Output drop down (in my case it says 3: HD Audio HDMI out 3). Now Close this window.
2 - Click on Generator icon.
3 - Select Pink Noise from drop down. Set level to -30 (you can set any level. -30 is just not that loud).
4 - Clik on play button. It will constantly generate the noise. Now go to your avr and change the sound mode one by one. Each time go and check if center speaker is producing noise. In my case, Multi-Channel did the job. Names change form avr to avr and therefore better to switch modes one by one and see if center speaker starts producing sound.

Jerry,
If this procedure works then may be worth adding it to the guide since a lot of us had the same issue.
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Jerry,
If this procedure works then may be worth adding it to the guide since a lot of us had the same issue.
Yes, good idea.
SherazNJ's Avatar SherazNJ
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Quick question guy. When you are treating early reflection (using impulse graph), do you first remove you theater seats (assuming you can) or its better to leave them and then take the reading?
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry
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Always leave everything in the room intact, because that is the way the room will be long term. If you want to test a theory that a particular piece of furniture might be causing an unwanted reflection, it is OK to remove it temporarily. However, if you find the removed object caused an unwanted reflection, you need to consider permanently removing the offending object.
SherazNJ's Avatar SherazNJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Always leave everything in the room intact, because that is the way the room will be long term. If you want to test a theory that a particular piece of furniture might be causing an unwanted reflection, it is OK to remove it temporarily. However, if you find the removed object caused an unwanted reflection, you need to consider permanently removing the offending object.
Thx Jerry. That's what I thought. My seats seem to be super reflective. Its a dedicated theater room and therefore only contains speakers and seats. These are leather seats and causing major reflection
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Thx Jerry. That's what I thought. My seats seem to be super reflective. Its a dedicated theater room and therefore only contains speakers and seats. These are leather seats and causing major reflection
Since it is likely someone will be sitting in the seats for movie night, it is "somewhat" acceptable to drape a non-reflective thing over the leather seats, e.g. a comforter. I do this myself, and I am not observing any negative effects.
AVSF458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
I had the issue with center channel. Here is what you do
1 - Go to Preferences and select third option from Output drop down (in my case it says 3: HD Audio HDMI out 3). Now Close this window.
2 - Click on Generator icon.
3 - Select Pink Noise from drop down. Set level to -30 (you can set any level. -30 is just not that loud).
4 - Clik on play button. It will constantly generate the noise. Now go to your avr and change the sound mode one by one. Each time go and check if center speaker is producing noise. In my case, Multi-Channel did the job. Names change form avr to avr and therefore better to switch modes one by one and see if center speaker starts producing sound.

Jerry,
If this procedure works then may be worth adding it to the guide since a lot of us had the same issue.
Thanks Shiraz and Jerry. I will try this suggestion. I would be happy if I can somehow EQ that ~65Hz issue (Green Line) with my settings. I am not looking for anything close to perfection. Only decent sound and want to make sure the Subs are in Phase and do not require me to change the Phase on one of them. A friend suggested I change the back to 180 degrees and at that time the Huge dip was at ~55Hz. I think it sounds better with Phase of the Rear to be Zero as well. Is there any chart on REW that can tell me if the Two Subs are out of phase?
SherazNJ's Avatar SherazNJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Since it is likely someone will be sitting in the seats for movie night, it is "somewhat" acceptable to drape a non-reflective thing over the leather seats, e.g. a comforter. I do this myself, and I am not observing any negative effects.

Agreed. I put a blanket behind the seat and reflection gets much better.
So as of now, I still have early ( < 5 ms) reflection. This is what I have so far. I think I might have to stick with what I have or may be call some acoustic company to see if their panels help.
Attached: center.jpg (71.5 KB)  left.jpg (81.0 KB)  right.jpg (79.5 KB) 
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry
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The REW Guide has been updated to Rev 3.91 as of December 28, 2014

Changes: Added a note to the “Measurement Guidelines” section specifying an AVR mode of “MULT CH IN” for users with full 7.1 HDMI support, while all other users should set the AVR to Stereo mode (p. 85).
artur9's Avatar artur9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post
looking for basic startup advice here. i just bought a mac computer (mac A1418) it does not have hdmi on it at all. can i still use REW? ill be using the mini dap umik 1. for computer connections i just have 4 usb ports and 2 thunderbolt ports which i guess if for connecting external display and high performance devices
Several of us have Macs here so, yes, you can use a Mac to do the measurements. There's a section or addendum to the guide that details some of the settings/issues.

My Mac is not multi-channel capable so, beyond suggesting you get a Thunderbolt-to-HDMI adapter, there's not much I can say.
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