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Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat > Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 08:24 AM 01-11-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
Yes, windows generated sounds work when REW is not running. REW is the only source or applicaton where sound comes out of the laptop instead of the main speakers and subs. On my Audio output I use the HD audio output 1 liek shown in the tutorial.

I have not tried the signal generator. Just the SPL meter and Speaker Level. Its weired because sometimes during the SPL meter test it plays the pink noise out od the laptop speakers, and other times it is completely silent, no sound at all. This does make me scratch my heI think that would be very unlikely. ad sometimes.

I have not tried the Java driver yet. I will try that. I assume I would have to reconfigure things in the output and input boxes? Is there a possibility I got a faulty install of ASIO?

I am hoping it isnt something to do with the new Laptop being faulty.
"HDAudio Output 1" is not correct. That is the laptop's audio, which is why the sound is coming from the laptop speakers. The correct choice would be "HDMI Out 1". If you don't have HDMI choices in the output drop-down menu, then we have isolated your issue--ASIO has not configured the HDMI audio properly.

How to fix it? Try uninstalling and re-installing ASIO, and rebooting with the HDMI cable plugged in. Until you can choose HDMI, you won't get any sound. You can always fall back to the Java drivers. They work perfectly well, and you should at least try them.

pickering.tim 12:12 AM 01-13-2015
hey guys - hoping someone can provide some feedback here....I am trying out a new setup in my basement theater room/music room and want to optimize speaker placement without using audyssey as a first step. I am wondering if REW would be a good place to start by measuring my two front main speakers in different placements/toe in angles at the MLP and determining the best placement for them that way. THen I can hook up my dual svs subs and run audyssey xt32. after which I would obviously go back to REW to see the results.

I dont want to use audyssey first as i find it to be a PITA to keep running in my basement which has a high noise floor due to my hvac/furnace ran always running. its loud, inconsistent and hard to get a good result in my particular room. would i find REW to be just as difficult given this?

i want to simply take some measurements without a lot of setup involved involved to analyze different speaker positions.

any help is appreciated!! And ASAp as the wife is asleep but the it is getting late
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 06:51 AM 01-13-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
hey guys - hoping someone can provide some feedback here....I am trying out a new setup in my basement theater room/music room and want to optimize speaker placement without using audyssey as a first step. I am wondering if REW would be a good place to start by measuring my two front main speakers in different placements/toe in angles at the MLP and determining the best placement for them that way. THen I can hook up my dual svs subs and run audyssey xt32. after which I would obviously go back to REW to see the results.

I dont want to use audyssey first as i find it to be a PITA to keep running in my basement which has a high noise floor due to my hvac/furnace ran always running. its loud, inconsistent and hard to get a good result in my particular room. would i find REW to be just as difficult given this?

i want to simply take some measurements without a lot of setup involved involved to analyze different speaker positions.

any help is appreciated!! And ASAp as the wife is asleep but the it is getting late
Tim, REW can surely help you find the best placement for your speakers and subs. It can also help you determine if you need acoustic treatments, where to place than, and to measure their effectiveness. But even REW, like a room correction system, needs a quiet environment in order to provide accurate results.
pickering.tim 07:45 AM 01-13-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Tim, REW can surely help you find the best placement for your speakers and subs. It can also help you determine if you need acoustic treatments, where to place than, and to measure their effectiveness. But even REW, like a room correction system, needs a quiet environment in order to provide accurate results.
if the noise floor with my HVAc on is around 45-50 db is that too much for effective measuring? Audyssey does run with it on but occasionally bumps up the volume of the chirps and sometime taht varies from channel to channel which i thought odd...anyway, I can run it with it off, but I was thinking it may be more realistic to get readings with it on in terms of how i process the signal for playback afterwards with Audyssey as the HVAC will most likely be on. Is that not sound logic?

As far as placing my speakers audyssey is not helpful, at least the way i understand how to use it, but i think REW would be. . the learning curve because i use a mac is proving to be a bit more work than intended. I ran DIrac Live last night with the room fairly quiet so i am wondering if those graph results might be useful for interpretation by those on the forum if i post them, to help my understand what they say about my room/placement. Believe I definitely get different responses from left to right speaker around 60 hz and when I look at Audyssey's graphs the variation in response at frequencies is quite dramatic. especially around 6-80 and again at 120 and a couple others upwards from there. but i found the graphs too hard to decipher any meaning from.
Alan P's Avatar Alan P 12:17 PM 01-13-2015
Pics of your setup would be helpful Tim.

Why can't you just turn off the HVAC when you're measuring/calibrating??

My noise floor (with HVAC off) is around 50-55db...you're fine.
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 12:39 PM 01-13-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
if the noise floor with my HVAc on is around 45-50 db is that too much for effective measuring? Audyssey does run with it on but occasionally bumps up the volume of the chirps and sometime taht varies from channel to channel which i thought odd...anyway, I can run it with it off, but I was thinking it may be more realistic to get readings with it on in terms of how i process the signal for playback afterwards with Audyssey as the HVAC will most likely be on. Is that not sound logic?

As far as placing my speakers audyssey is not helpful, at least the way i understand how to use it, but i think REW would be. . the learning curve because i use a mac is proving to be a bit more work than intended. I ran DIrac Live last night with the room fairly quiet so i am wondering if those graph results might be useful for interpretation by those on the forum if i post them, to help my understand what they say about my room/placement. Believe I definitely get different responses from left to right speaker around 60 hz and when I look at Audyssey's graphs the variation in response at frequencies is quite dramatic. especially around 6-80 and again at 120 and a couple others upwards from there. but i found the graphs too hard to decipher any meaning from.
Your noise floor does not seem to be excessive but, as Alan suggests, why don't you simply turn off the HVAC for as long as it takes to run the measurements or a calibration. Of course, that is easy for me to say here in Texas, while you are probably somewhere with a -10 degree temp.
pickering.tim 01:14 PM 01-13-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Your noise floor does not seem to be excessive but, as Alan suggests, why don't you simply turn off the HVAC for as long as it takes to run the measurements or a calibration. Of course, that is easy for me to say here in Texas, while you are probably somewhere with a -10 degree temp.
I have turned off the HVAC for measurement - most recently when I did (and this could be due to other factors as I cannot be certain) I ended up with a calibration that rendered Audyssey useless as it was so quit and couldn't stand a chance against my uninsulated HVAC system or elephant stampede or whatever it is in there that I could barely here any of the aspects of the music. jsut that it was on....

anyway - I recently ran another EQ with Audyssey (i am working wiht just my fronts but recently added in one sub, then two) and while it sounds OK - I am not getting the benefits I used to in other room configurations I have used. I would HATE to think since this is my 3rd wall in this room that I may have to move things around again ....but I would do it, and enjoy it, cause that is just me

I digress - I will send pics to help visualize the room better later this evening when I get home from work if i can - but essentially it is a 18 x 18 square room with like a 8.5 (?) foot ceiling. THe two caveats to this are that the (now left side) wall opens up half way to a hallway leading to a bathroom and stairs. The other is a column that goes from floor to ceiling (now between my front left speaker and TV in the latest trial of placements) which connects to an HVAC vent pass that extends (perpendicular right now to my front 3) the entire length of the room and dead ends into the dastardly HVAC closet. Have I said how much i like the HVAC closet yet?

on the (currently) right wall there is a brick fireplace that is not being used and the most even/free of windows or doors wall is where my setup currently resides. My MLP is somewhere on a black leather couch anywhere from 8-10 feet back from the TV and about 4-5 feet from the back wall.

I found some old pics i uploaded to this site at one time, maybe they will help - obviously things are not setup this way anymore as I felt the brick fireplace was impeding my setup/sound etc. may have to delete these as they are "under construction pics" and not a proud representation of hte room
Attached: 2014-11-07 21.38.11.jpg (163.8 KB)  2014-10-29 01.45.09.jpg (88.9 KB)  2014-10-29 01.44.36.jpg (135.3 KB) 
pickering.tim 01:34 PM 01-13-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
I have turned off the HVAC for measurement - most recently when I did (and this could be due to other factors as I cannot be certain) I ended up with a calibration that rendered Audyssey useless as it was so quit and couldn't stand a chance against my uninsulated HVAC system or elephant stampede or whatever it is in there that I could barely here any of the aspects of the music. jsut that it was on....

anyway - I recently ran another EQ with Audyssey (i am working wiht just my fronts but recently added in one sub, then two) and while it sounds OK - I am not getting the benefits I used to in other room configurations I have used. I would HATE to think since this is my 3rd wall in this room that I may have to move things around again ....but I would do it, and enjoy it, cause that is just me

I digress - I will send pics to help visualize the room better later this evening when I get home from work if i can - but essentially it is a 18 x 18 square room with like a 8.5 (?) foot ceiling. THe two caveats to this are that the (now left side) wall opens up half way to a hallway leading to a bathroom and stairs. The other is a column that goes from floor to ceiling (now between my front left speaker and TV in the latest trial of placements) which connects to an HVAC vent pass that extends (perpendicular right now to my front 3) the entire length of the room and dead ends into the dastardly HVAC closet. Have I said how much i like the HVAC closet yet?

on the (currently) right wall there is a brick fireplace that is not being used and the most even/free of windows or doors wall is where my setup currently resides. My MLP is somewhere on a black leather couch anywhere from 8-10 feet back from the TV and about 4-5 feet from the back wall.

I found some old pics i uploaded to this site at one time, maybe they will help - obviously things are not setup this way anymore as I felt the brick fireplace was impeding my setup/sound etc. may have to delete these as they are "under construction pics" and not a proud representation of hte room
and to get the point of all that - I want something that will help me place my speakers as Audyssey can't seem to handle the room the way I have set things up or any of the ways I can see possible so far. It isnt that i cant find a setup that works, it is just not where I want it to be yet. right now my left speaker is stuck in an awkward bind of being either just outside or inside this column as part of my front three and while it actually hasnt made as big of an impact on the sound as i thought I would like to be able to measure the impact of perhaps moving it further away from the column/sacrificing room between the speaker and the side wall or moving it further into the and therefore even further from the wall. Right now the front left and right speakers are about 48 in from my front wall.
pickering.tim 01:36 PM 01-13-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
and to get the point of all that - I want something that will help me place my speakers as Audyssey can't seem to handle the room the way I have set things up or any of the ways I can see possible so far. It isnt that i cant find a setup that works, it is just not where I want it to be yet. right now my left speaker is stuck in an awkward bind of being either just outside or inside this column as part of my front three and while it actually hasnt made as big of an impact on the sound as i thought I would like to be able to measure the impact of perhaps moving it further away from the column/sacrificing room between the speaker and the side wall or moving it further into the and therefore even further from the wall. Right now the front left and right speakers are about 48 in from my front wall.
P.s. anyone ever tried Auralex or something like that as an insulator within a room like my HVAC utility closet? seems like it couldn't hurt.
Spazdoc's Avatar Spazdoc 09:22 PM 01-15-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
It seems to be some severe driver issues on that old laptop. It was only having 2 channels listed under configure. I just downgraded to some drivers from 2007. Now the configure button is greyed out but I can see 6 channels in REW now. I will give it another try tonight.

If this doesn't work is there any decent DP to HDMI or USB3 to HDMI adapter I can use on this modern laptop instead?
Did you end up using a USB-HDMI adapter, or Display port-HDMI adapter?

I do not have HDMI on my laptop, and so would prefer to get an adapter to be able to run sweeps without disconnecting speaker wires on the AVR. On another site, a member posted these options:

Startech
http://www.startech.com/AV/USB-Video...rd~USB32HDDVII

SIIG
http://www.siig.com/usb-3-0-to-hdmi-with-audio.html

Diamond MM
http://www.diamondmm.com/bvu3500h-display-adapter.html
ambesolman's Avatar ambesolman 10:31 PM 01-15-2015
I often see people post that their subs are good down to X hz @ Y dB. How are these measurements taken, at reference?
Following jerry's guide I'm successful doing sweeps and they are usually done with the MV @ -19 with the SPL calibrated to 80db. But this doesn't seem to tell me what my subs/system is good to Xhz @Ydb. Do I just run another sweep with the vol turned up to 0?


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still [emoji107]
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 11:06 PM 01-15-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
I often see people post that their subs are good down to X hz @ Y dB. How are these measurements taken, at reference?
Following jerry's guide I'm successful doing sweeps and they are usually done with the MV @ -19 with the SPL calibrated to 80db. But this doesn't seem to tell me what my subs/system is good to Xhz @Ydb. Do I just run another sweep with the vol turned up to 0?


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still [emoji107]
You could try, but I suspect that you will get clipping on the REW input channel. It isn't easy to what you are asking to do.
ambesolman's Avatar ambesolman 11:35 PM 01-15-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You could try, but I suspect that you will get clipping on the REW input channel. It isn't easy to what you are asking to do.

So how do folks figure this out?


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still [emoji107]
AV_mike's Avatar AV_mike 02:03 AM 01-16-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
So how do folks figure this out?


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still [emoji107]
As AJ stated, any testing at reference level is difficult (bloody loud), and with all but the best subs - impossible.
I try to run sweeps at the approx level that I listen to movies, and see how well the subs extend at that level, then to check headroom I'll slowly increase the level a few dB at a time to see when the output begins limiting. With many subs there are inbuilt DSPs on the plate amplifier that are programmed to 'soft limit' at extreme low frequencies to protect the drive units from over-travel, this effect will be seen as the output level is increased. At higher frequencies, my ears give up before the amp/speakers approach compression (smallish room).
Regards, Mike.
Frank Derks's Avatar Frank Derks 02:24 AM 01-16-2015
If you need more headroom you can lower the input volume setting in REW's preferences window.
If have checked the mikes (umik-1) calibration and the measured SPL stays the same.


Values you can use are:
0.5 equivalent to 6dB extra headroom.
0.25 = 12dB
0.1 = 20dB


An added bonus is that with the lower gain settings the noise floor drops too.
Mashie Saldana's Avatar Mashie Saldana 03:10 AM 01-16-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazdoc View Post
Did you end up using a USB-HDMI adapter, or Display port-HDMI adapter?

I do not have HDMI on my laptop, and so would prefer to get an adapter to be able to run sweeps without disconnecting speaker wires on the AVR. On another site, a member posted these options:

Startech
http://www.startech.com/AV/USB-Video...rd~USB32HDDVII

SIIG
http://www.siig.com/usb-3-0-to-hdmi-with-audio.html

Diamond MM
http://www.diamondmm.com/bvu3500h-display-adapter.html
I ended up getting a Lenovo MiniDP to HDMI adapter as I have a Lenovo laptop. initially Amazon sent out the wrong item (Lenovo USB3 to Ethernet adapter) so it wasn't until last night I could try it for the first time. I just unplugged the Blu-Ray from the AVR and plugged in the laptop instead.

My number one issue now is the noise floor in this room, the windows are in need of replacing and it didn't help that it was really windy on top of that. The end result was a noise floor around 60-70dB in the gusts. I'm not sure if I can get any useful information out of this until the windows are fixed.
Spazdoc's Avatar Spazdoc 04:08 AM 01-16-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I ended up getting a Lenovo MiniDP to HDMI adapter as I have a Lenovo laptop. initially Amazon sent out the wrong item (Lenovo USB3 to Ethernet adapter) so it wasn't until last night I could try it for the first time. I just unplugged the Blu-Ray from the AVR and plugged in the laptop instead.

My number one issue now is the noise floor in this room, the windows are in need of replacing and it didn't help that it was really windy on top of that. The end result was a noise floor around 60-70dB in the gusts. I'm not sure if I can get any useful information out of this until the windows are fixed.
I haven aLenovo T530 with DP, so that might work. So it sounds like the problem you are having is the room, and not the laptop connection, correct? Do you have full 5.1 control with this method?

Just to be sure, is this the adapter you are using? http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-Mini-di.../dp/B00E91Z2W2
Mashie Saldana's Avatar Mashie Saldana 04:16 AM 01-16-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazdoc View Post
I haven aLenovo T530 with DP, so that might work. So it sounds like the problem you are having is the room, and not the laptop connection, correct? Do you have full 5.1 control with this method?

Just to be sure, is this the adapter you are using? http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-Mini-di.../dp/B00E91Z2W2
Yes I need to either sort out the windows and/or do the testing when it isn't half a storm outside...

I have full 7.1 control of my AVR using that adaptor which will work for your T530 as well.
3ll3d00d's Avatar 3ll3d00d 04:22 AM 01-16-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
So how do folks figure this out?
you basically just have to turn it up while keeping an eye on the levels to avoid clipping and monitoring output to make sure you're not driving anything to distress. I've written a FAQ entry on this elsewhere (see https://www.avforums.com/threads/diy...#post-21380344) but it's pretty simple really.

If using a UMIK-1 then you also need to make sure the sensitivity is set correctly to give you the headroom required, see Massively clipped UMIK-1 for details on that.
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 07:00 AM 01-16-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
you basically just have to turn it up while keeping an eye on the levels to avoid clipping and monitoring output to make sure you're not driving anything to distress. I've written a FAQ entry on this elsewhere (see https://www.avforums.com/threads/diy...#post-21380344) but it's pretty simple really.

If using a UMIK-1 then you also need to make sure the sensitivity is set correctly to give you the headroom required, see Massively clipped UMIK-1 for details on that.
Both threads are very interesting reads, thanks. So is your alter ego Mattkhan?
3ll3d00d's Avatar 3ll3d00d 07:44 AM 01-16-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Both threads are very interesting reads, thanks. So is your alter ego Mattkhan?
tis i indeed
ambesolman's Avatar ambesolman 12:33 PM 01-16-2015
Thanks for the info guys, I'll give it a whirl!


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still [emoji107]
ShaQBlogs's Avatar ShaQBlogs 08:13 AM 01-17-2015
Trying to take measurements with UMM6.
For reference, I'm using "Getting Started with REW - A step by step guide" by AustinJerry.

I followed instructions as per the manual and Installed these.
1. REW 5.0 (build 2142)
2. ASIO4ALL 2.12 (drivers?)

When i run REW and go to preferences and try to select ASIO drivers, the option is missing. The guide expects the drivers options and I think Java is selected by default.
Attached screenshot.

What am i missing?


REW Guide version - Rev 3.5 (April 6, 2014)
System - Win 7 64 ultimate
Attached: My REW.png (88.9 KB)  REW Guide.png (34.4 KB) 
ShaQBlogs's Avatar ShaQBlogs 08:13 AM 01-17-2015
RESOLVED:
I was able to resolve this myself. Spent a while on this.
There was a mismatch in versions of REW and ASIO. REW was older version on my pc.


Trying to take measurements with UMM6.
For reference, I'm using "Getting Started with REW - A step by step guide" by AustinJerry.

I followed instructions as per the manual and Installed these.
1. REW 5.0 (build 2142)
2. ASIO4ALL 2.12 (drivers?)

When i run REW and go to preferences and try to select ASIO drivers, the option is missing. The guide expects the drivers options and I think Java is selected by default.
Attached screenshot.

What am i missing?


REW Guide version - Rev 3.5 (April 6, 2014)
System - Win 7 64 ultimate
SherazNJ's Avatar SherazNJ 10:33 AM 01-17-2015
Can someone please post what a good frequency graph looks like within 15-2000Hz. Following are the questions I'm trying to get answers of

1 - How much should the house curve go up from cross-over? Assuming cross-over is set at 80, how much more should the frequency graph go up from 80 to 40 go give a consistent bass output? I understand that it also depends very much on room and its size but in general there should be a rule of how many db going higher is fine.
2 - How should the frequency graph look like from cross-over to above (From 80-300). This I assume is a critical area where subs are getting integrated with speakers and therefore ideally they should mingle seamlessly. How the graph should look like to achieve that?
3 - Do you take frequency graph as L+Subs, C+Subs, R+Subs, L+R+Subs. Or does it even go to L+R+C+Subs? I'm able to get all combinations working besides L+R+C+Subs. None of the settings made all my front speakers produce sound at the same time.


My current frequency graph is 12db higher at 40 from cross-over point (80). Then on top of that I"m running my subs 3db hot. According to some folks, I should tame it down to 6 db. What I have is going to exaggerate response around 40hz which is detracting from the mid-bass slam.

Thx.
jim19611961's Avatar jim19611961 11:47 AM 01-17-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Can someone please post what a good frequency graph looks like within 15-2000Hz. Following are the questions I'm trying to get answers of

1 - How much should the house curve go up from cross-over? Assuming cross-over is set at 80, how much more should the frequency graph go up from 80 to 40 go give a consistent bass output? I understand that it also depends very much on room and its size but in general there should be a rule of how many db going higher is fine.
2 - How should the frequency graph look like from cross-over to above (From 80-300). This I assume is a critical area where subs are getting integrated with speakers and therefore ideally they should mingle seamlessly. How the graph should look like to achieve that?
3 - Do you take frequency graph as L+Subs, C+Subs, R+Subs, L+R+Subs. Or does it even go to L+R+C+Subs? I'm able to get all combinations working besides L+R+C+Subs. None of the settings made all my front speakers produce sound at the same time.


My current frequency graph is 12db higher at 40 from cross-over point (80). Then on top of that I"m running my subs 3db hot. According to some folks, I should tame it down to 6 db. What I have is going to exaggerate response around 40hz which is detracting from the mid-bass slam.

Thx.
Click image for larger version

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House curve preference is a very subjective thing. Much also depends on what you listen to primarily. For me, about 5-6db gain over the mids is about right for me. (Graph = 1/24th smoothing)

I run L+subs and R+subs separately for full range analysis. R+L+subs for bass only analysis.
Attached:
SherazNJ's Avatar SherazNJ 11:52 AM 01-17-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Attachment 484297

House curve preference is a very subjective thing. Much also depends on what you listen to primarily. For me, about 5-6db gain over the mids is about right for me.
That is a sweet graph. Is it before/after avr calibration? is it C+subs or L+R+Subs or L+R+C+Subs?
jim19611961's Avatar jim19611961 11:54 AM 01-17-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
That is a sweet graph. Is it before/after avr calibration? is it C+subs or L+R+Subs or L+R+C+Subs?

I dont have/use an AVR. Old school here, source -> pre amp -> power amp(s). No signal processing of any kind (dsp, audyssey, eq). That particular graph is R+subs.
tvuong's Avatar tvuong 04:30 PM 01-17-2015
When measuring distortion with my LFE bumped up to Max (250hz),I have 2nd harmonic(125hz) all the way to 10th harmonic (25hz) shown on graph, Can someone explain the THD? What is fundamental? What is the most important distortion to look at? Thanks.
SherazNJ's Avatar SherazNJ 04:47 PM 01-17-2015
Can someone please help me interpret my Center+Sub graph? How bad is it and what can be done to fix it? This is before Audyssey.
One is to show whole frequency with 1/6 smoothing and the other one is with no smoothing and up to 500 hz.
Thx.
Attached: ceter+sub(no audyssey).jpg (75.7 KB)  ceter+sub(no audyssey) no smoothing.jpg (67.1 KB) 
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