Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 448 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-01-2015, 06:53 AM
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^
So your real question is how much reflections should be attenuated?

Markus

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Old 02-01-2015, 07:15 AM
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Yes. When measuring for reflections. What is the goal? Where should the impulse be below?
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Old 02-01-2015, 07:31 AM
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^
There is no simple answer to this.

The audibility of reflections depends on the number of reflections, their direction, spectral content and delay. Furthermore it depends on the signal itself. Reflections of percussive sounds are easier to hear than reflections of instruments playing sustained sounds, e.g. violins.
Some reflections are "grouped" by our hearing. Although their individual level is low and doesn't show up as significant spikes in graphs, their perceived level is high.

Then there's the question whether room reflections are an integral part of stereo and multichannel. If yes then not all reflections can be considered bad. Good read: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cf...86&name=harman

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Old 02-01-2015, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Waterfall doesn't look like there's 60Hz hum. Do you hear anything?

Also try looking at the spectrum of the noise floor:
So once again I am learning how to interpret everything, but to me, it looks like I do have something going on at 60 hz - I can most certainly hear furnace noise - I will shut down system if my wife does not kill me and measure again....but I have no idea if furnace noise is that low.


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Old 02-01-2015, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
There is no simple answer to this.

The audibility of reflections depends on the number of reflections, their direction, spectral content and delay. Furthermore it depends on the signal itself. Reflections of percussive sounds are easier to hear than reflections of instruments playing sustained sounds, e.g. violins.
Some reflections are "grouped" by our hearing. Although their individual level is low and doesn't show up as significant spikes in graphs, their perceived level is high.

Then there's the question whether room reflections are an integral part of stereo and multichannel. If yes then not all reflections can be considered bad. Good read: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cf...86&name=harman
Nvm. I am thinking of ETC
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Old 02-01-2015, 08:25 AM
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Sorry Brian but your messages are too cryptic.

Markus

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Old 02-01-2015, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
What is ideal to have the impulse below -20? -15?

Sorry I'm not wording it correctly
Brian, the target referenced in the guide is to reduce reflections within the first 20ms below -20dB. There is nothing magic about this guideline, it is just something to shoot for.
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Old 02-01-2015, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
So once again I am learning how to interpret everything, but to me, it looks like I do have something going on at 60 hz - I can most certainly hear furnace noise - I will shut down system if my wife does not kill me and measure again....but I have no idea if furnace noise is that low.
Don't know if it'll give you some further thoughts... When my furnace is on, the noise through the floor vents is very low-frequency, and really screws up the lowest end of the waterfall. I can barely hear it really, I just hear the furnace motor and the air flow a bit...getting old, the lowest freqs the subs can reproduce mostly evade me. So yes, I do turn the furnace off when making measurements, it's just too "random" on/off. The noise through the cold air return vent is much louder (to me), I do have one of those in the HT room and put a panel in front of it that helps an awful lot while still allowing airflow. Edit: my furnace and gas hot water tank are *right below* my MLP. Due to new safety/venting building code requirements, the new gas hot water heater I got just before starting with REW is much MUCH louder than my previous one...I can hear it more than the furnace even, the supposedly high efficiency burner makes a very audible LF sound...JIC you have one of those too.

Another thing that shows up for me is the fridge. This shows up as a small bump at 59.something Hz, just like on your graph. I am close enough that I can hear the largest fridge's compressor run, when everything else is quiet. I think part of the picked-up noise is from the very heavy fridge being on a suspended floor, as is my HT room. I thought some of the vibration may be going through the floor, so I tried isolating the mic stand (as I think was suggested in the Audyssey measurement guide, not Jerry's, I use the same stand for both): no diff really. I sometimes turn that fridge off when making more "serious"/baseline measurements like noise floor. I have forgotten to turn the fridge back on too many times as well...did I mention getting old?

Edit: what I meant by my ramblings is we get used to "normal" house sounds, they all make some, so you have to get very critical when trying to determine what some anomalous reading might be.

Last edited by cfraser; 02-01-2015 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 02-01-2015, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Brian, the target referenced in the guide is to reduce reflections within the first 20ms below -20dB. There is nothing magic about this guideline, it is just something to shoot for.
Exactly what I wad looking for. Than you. Sorry I couldn't put into writing what I was thinking You figured it out
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
As for treatment, I have been spending a ton of time trying to figure out a plan vs. just randomly tossing stuff in the room. Is this the thread to work on the treatments, or am I better off starting a "new thread".
There is an Acoustics Treatment Thread.
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
That's often caused by power lines running parallel to preamp or speaker cables. It can be particularly frustrating if the power lines involved are those feeding the house.
I don't think that particular hum is electronics related at all. I don't see or feel the speaker cones moving.

As mentioned later it might be the ductwork is tuned just so to drive me batty.

OTOH, I do get a hum like you mention from the single outlet in my "wiring closet/equipment closet" if I'm not super careful.
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Hummmmm.....ok...so what you are saying is that if I am just sitting there with everything OFF, I will still get that 60hz spike. Is there a way to measure the room to verify that.
Not at all. Least I don't think so. That was in response to a comment about a hum in my room.

I have this fantasy about getting my noise floor to 25dB when everything in the house is off (fridge, etc). Never going to happen but spurious noises remind me of just how fantastical my fantasy is
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
I sometimes turn that fridge off when making more "serious"/baseline measurements like noise floor. I have forgotten to turn the fridge back on too many times as well...did I mention getting old?
I had to throw out a month's freezer load because of such a measurement mishap. One of these days I'ld like to contribute a pilot check list to AustinJerry's guide.


  1. Kick everyone out of the house, including dogs
  2. Turn off furnace
  3. turn off fridge
  4. snack to prevent stomach grumbling
  5. ...
  6. turn fridge on
  7. turn furnace on
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:48 AM
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In preparation for replacing my first generation Pioneers with Fusion 8 Alchemies, I ran REW on my center speaker only. Thanks (?) to the recent discussion about distortion, I looked at that tab and discovered this:





A great many sweeps later, the culprit turned out to be "Sound Retriever." Turning it off gave me this:



Take home lesson for Pioneer AVR owners: TURN OFF S-RTRV!

Michael

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Old 02-01-2015, 10:59 AM
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For those using REW and Java instead of ASIO (for one reason or another ) and HDMI, I have found an easy way to get signals to one speaker at a time.
I've mentioned Equalizer-APO before because of its eq capabilities, but a feature has been added that provides this function: COPY.

For example, to get output only to the subs, edit the config.txt file:

Copy: SUB=L L=0.0 R=0.0

For center channel only (I just turn the subs off manually, but you can probably add SUB=0.0; guess I'll have to try that next time. ):

Copy: C=L L=0.0 R=0.0

You can even check your right surround!:

Copy: RR=L L=0.0 R=0.0

Very handy!

http://sourceforge.net/p/equalizerap...Documentation/

Oh, and it also works really well with REW for eq.


Michael
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Old 02-02-2015, 07:02 AM
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Sorry if I'm asking something already answered, but this is a 450 page thread and I'm just now starting to play around with REW.

I notice that everybody universally says to take measurements with EQ off. I'm running Audyssey in my system and am curious if after running REW and making adjustments I would want to rerun Audyssey?
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Old 02-02-2015, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
Sorry if I'm asking something already answered, but this is a 450 page thread and I'm just now starting to play around with REW.

I notice that everybody universally says to take measurements with EQ off. I'm running Audyssey in my system and am curious if after running REW and making adjustments I would want to rerun Audyssey?
It's a long thread, agreed, but AustinJerry has a good primer in his guide. Did you read that? It's linked to in his signature.

HST, REW is for measuring and Audyssey is for room correction. So,
  • measure with REW
  • make all room acoustics adjustments you feel are justified by those measurements
  • remeasure to confirm your treatments were effective
  • and then run Audyssey to get that last bit of sonic goodness.
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Old 02-02-2015, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
Sorry if I'm asking something already answered, but this is a 450 page thread and I'm just now starting to play around with REW.

I notice that everybody universally says to take measurements with EQ off. I'm running Audyssey in my system and am curious if after running REW and making adjustments I would want to rerun Audyssey?
Let's see if I understand what you are asking. You would take measurements with Audyssey off in order to assess the uncorrected room response. If you make changes, i.e. move a speaker, then yes, you need to re-run Audyssey.
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Old 02-02-2015, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Let's see if I understand what you are asking. You would take measurements with Audyssey off in order to assess the uncorrected room response. If you make changes, i.e. move a speaker, then yes, you need to re-run Audyssey.
That's exactly what I was asking, just trying to see how Audyssey plays along with all of this. I just now discovered the setup guide that you created. I've printed it out and will be using that to help me along here. Huge thanks for taking the time to try to simplify this.
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:09 PM
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Mac user help - Keystroke for measuring ETC peaks?

For those of you with Macs, how are you to able to measure the peaks in the ETC graph, as described in page 79 of the current REW guide located here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...01%20v3.92.pdf

I'm specifically trying to generate the horizontal red line which shows the ms/m/ft measurement from the origin y-axis to the peak.

The guide suggests the following:
Quote:
To determine the distance to a peak, place the cursor on the vertical axis at the height of the peak you want to measure, hold the Control Key down with your left hand, depress the right mouse button with your other hand, and drag the cursor horizontally to the top of the peak.
As written, doesn't work on my Mac. I've tried substituting the Command key for Control and still no go. Anything I try simply drags the entire graph. I can't seem to find any helpful reference in the Help menu.

I'm probably missing something super obvious. Any ideas?
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:51 PM
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Not obvious, you just need a right mouse button. My Kensington Expert Mouse works fine.

Or course, I still don't know what I'm looking at.

Michael
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Old 02-02-2015, 04:19 PM
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Not obvious, you just need a right mouse button. My Kensington Expert Mouse works fine.

Or course, I still don't know what I'm looking at.

Michael
Thanks, but my mouse was already configured with a right click button. Anyways....I figured it out (finally). I needed to also hold down the 'Fn' key.


Apple Mouse (or Magic Mouse) users:
While holding down both Fn+Control Keys, then RightClick and Drag using the mouse.

For Trackpad users:
While holding down both Fn+Control Keys, then two-finger drag across the Trackpad

Now back to your regularly scheduled measuring....
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Old 02-02-2015, 05:25 PM
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Not obvious, you just need a right mouse button. My Kensington Expert Mouse works fine.

Or course, I still don't know what I'm looking at.

Michael
Place the cursor horizontally at -20dB. Any peak that is higher than the cursor is less than desirable. These are rough guidelines only.
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Old 02-02-2015, 05:28 PM
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Thanks, but I'm still looking for a Fn key.


Time for a new Mac, I guess.

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Old 02-03-2015, 01:13 PM
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Just in case any of you is interested in using REW and PEQ for room correction, here's a short tutorial:
https://mehlau.net/audio/room-correction-peq/

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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Old 02-03-2015, 02:34 PM
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Wow. The advantage of doing that instead of "just" a sweep or two?

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Old 02-03-2015, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Just in case any of you is interested in using REW and PEQ for room correction, here's a short tutorial:
https://mehlau.net/audio/room-correction-peq/
Thanks. Now I feel dumb, I didn't even know/remember REW could do that (generic PEQ). I did it "manually"; it ended up being very much a matter of a judgment call for me anyway, but some help would have...helped.

Actually, I noticed lately that the screencaps are quite different from what my REW looks like...time to actually install an update instead of just DL.

Last edited by cfraser; 02-04-2015 at 09:21 AM. Reason: replaced PEQ with REW, to make sense...
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Just in case any of you is interested in using REW and PEQ for room correction, here's a short tutorial:
https://mehlau.net/audio/room-correction-peq/
That makes it look incredibly easy. I'll have to try again with either my prepro's EQ or the MiniDSP I don't know how to work

For subwoofer EQ, is it as simple as selecting Subwoofer instead of Full Range?
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Old 02-03-2015, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockhound76s View Post
For those of you with Macs, how are you to able to measure the peaks in the ETC graph, as described in page 79 of the current REW guide located here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...01%20v3.92.pdf

I'm specifically trying to generate the horizontal red line which shows the ms/m/ft measurement from the origin y-axis to the peak.

The guide suggests the following:

As written, doesn't work on my Mac. I've tried substituting the Command key for Control and still no go. Anything I try simply drags the entire graph. I can't seem to find any helpful reference in the Help menu.

I'm probably missing something super obvious. Any ideas?
On my wife's MacBook Pro I finally found that if I hold down the control key AND use two fingers instead of one on the pad. The red line with distance measurements then comes up.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Wow. The advantage of doing that instead of "just" a sweep or two?
One or two sweeps isn't enough. You would need to do a lot of single sweeps and adjustments to get similar results.

Spatial averaging tends to smooth out issues that exist only in single points while revealing issues that are common to all points. It also seems to be a better representation of perceived spectral balance.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 02-04-2015 at 03:39 AM.
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