Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 459 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13741 of 13770 Old Yesterday, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
If you're using stereo RCA cables to your AVR, you can just disconnect one of the cables at a time.
If your speakers allow it, banana plugs might be a good option at this point.
I am using banana plugs running from speakers to AVR. I have a XPA5 that should be showing up today, which should make things easier to get to once in the system.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I agree. Unplugging speaker wires is dangerous. The only time this might be necessary when using the Java drivers is when a subs-only measurement is required, unless you are driving the main speakers with an external amp, in which case you can simply turn the amp off.
Well I assume you mean bare speaker wires, which I am using plugs. I try to run most of my sweeps without the speakers playing at the same time, for example (right speaker + subs) then left+subs, then overlay my measurements like it says to do in this thread for sweeps, unless doing a waterfall graph or running subs only. Without having the ASIO driver thats all I can do. It sucks. Would definitely be convenient to just shut the speakers off via the laptop.
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post #13742 of 13770 Old Yesterday, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
I am using banana plugs running from speakers to AVR. I have a XPA5 that should be showing up today, which should make things easier to get to once in the system.



Well I assume you mean bare speaker wires, which I am using plugs. I try to run most of my sweeps without the speakers playing at the same time, for example (right speaker + subs) then left+subs, then overlay my measurements like it says to do in this thread for sweeps, unless doing a waterfall graph or running subs only. Without having the ASIO driver thats all I can do. It sucks. Would definitely be convenient to just shut the speakers off via the laptop.
You can run a measurement like right+ subs without unplugging a speaker cable. With Java, you should be using a Y-cable into the left and right RCA connections on your AVR. Simply unplug one side of the Y-cable. Or perhaps you already know this.
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post #13743 of 13770 Old Yesterday, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
An interesting comparison of my current system with and without Audyssey XT32.

There is also some impressive room gain happening here with the little corner-loaded Velodyne VX-10, plus a little Dynamic EQ sprinkled on top. I realize that for posting future measurements I should have DEQ off. Overall, XT32 it did a decent job bringing up some lows and taming some peaks. I need to figure out what is killing my 400-600Hz region, but I'm not going to go to great lengths just yet. Reason is that the speakers and sub are changing within the next month so this was just getting the new AVR all ready for them in advance. When you're within the return window on speakers/subs, you don't want to have AVR problems. Once I have the new speakers and subs and after I've moved, I'll get more serious with this.

I decided to use dark colors for OFF, and bright colors for ON. These were done at -20 on my X4000 which gives a headroom of about 10db. They are 85db sensitivity speakers. All settings following AustinJerry's guide, which has been a great help. CSL UMIK-1, HDMI.

Left speaker. Dark red is Audyssey OFF, bright red is Audyssey ON
Attachment 575537

Right speaker. Dark blue is Audyssey OFF, light blue is Audyssey ON
Attachment 575545

One last thing. I can't get my AVR to display MULTICH IN. It's in Stereo, and I can change it to all kinds of other things, but not MULTICH IN. It does default to MULTICH IN for my PS3, but not my Chromecast or my PC. I doubt this will be a problem for Left, Right and Sub measurements but it deviates a bit from Jerry's guide.

Attachment 575553
Instead of explaining which one is Audyssey by using color, why not use description instead? When you click on image icon in REW, it shows a box where it allows you to type. There you can type something like Blue=Audyssey, Green= No RC.

Do you have Auto on your avr? If you have your source set to PCM, you can leave your avr to Auto (at least in my case and I have Marantz SR 6007).
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post #13744 of 13770 Old Yesterday, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
One last thing. I can't get my AVR to display MULTICH IN. It's in Stereo, and I can change it to all kinds of other things, but not MULTICH IN. It does default to MULTICH IN for my PS3, but not my Chromecast or my PC. I doubt this will be a problem for Left, Right and Sub measurements but it deviates a bit from Jerry's guide.
For the AVR to switch to MULTICH IN mode, it needs to be detecting a multi-channel source signal. It is possible that your PC does not support multi-channel. For example, I have a 3-4 year old laptop that I use, and it only supports two-channel, so I get Stereo. Perhaps this is your case as well?

I believe you can determine whether your PC supports multi-channel by exploring the properties of your audio output device in Windows. If it doesn't, no need to worry. REW can be reasonably functional using Stereo mode.
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post #13745 of 13770 Old Yesterday, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
Would definitely be convenient to just shut the speakers off via the laptop.
You can try this:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/
The Copy command can be used to get one channel at a time:
Copy: L=0.0
will output just the right channel (by turning off the left).
If your laptop is HDMI, you can get just the center channel with
Copy: C=L L=0.0 R=0.0
You just change the config file as needed, and save it.
Easy once you get the hang of it.
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post #13746 of 13770 Old Yesterday, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
thanks I appreciate your help. I opened the mic and flipped the 3 switches the opposite way, plugged it back in, and windows device manager still says gain is 18db...strange?
Interesting that windows does not report the change in gain when changing the dip switches. The Massive Clipped thread lead me to believe that it did. If I could get my UMIK opened without damaging, I would experiment and validate. It's an USB device and would hope Windows could reflect the internal settings of the dip switches.
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post #13747 of 13770 Old Yesterday, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Saril View Post
Interesting that windows does not report the change in gain when changing the dip switches. The Massive Clipped thread lead me to believe that it did. If I could get my UMIK opened without damaging, I would experiment and validate. It's an USB device and would hope Windows could reflect the internal settings of the dip switches.
I believe someone reported that a reboot is required for Windows to display the new gain setting.
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post #13748 of 13770 Old Yesterday, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
Yeah I hear no bad sounds. Being that me and the Cross spectrum tech couldnt see why my living room would produce a hump like this given the room measurements, he told me if possible, go to a room I can seal off and see what response I get. Was really shocked to see the flat response with the door shut.



Yeah kinda seems like it is. Same thing with my living room that has an opening to the kitchen. Lugging the sub in the bedroom I had only one spot to place it and it certainly wasnt optimal. Kinda closer to the middle of the room. I knew the graph would be ugly somewhere. But, they both looked good up until 40+. I just was testing for whats happening down low. I really thought the UMIK was at fault for this, but I am not sure now.

This REW thing has been a blessing and a curse. Still can;t get the ASIO driver to work, so I am stuck with the Java driver and having to unplug my speakers all the time to run sweeps. It is getting quite old. Then I get hit with some weird room anomaly. Cant win haha

Rod, going back and looking at your graphs... I have a very similar thing going on in my room as well. I have 3 Cap S2's in ~840cubes and the FR is very flat w/o EQ down to ~4hz. If I open the door, I get about a 8-9dB gain at 7hz, iirc. Oddly enough, If I seal the room even further (weather stripping at the bottom of the door/around the window) the gain is back, although I believe it was a little higher up.. 10-11hz but with ~6-7dB of gain. I wish I would have saved these graphs for you, but I didn't.


If you want to check to see if it's something to do with Jeff's DSP, you can simply hit the "program" button next to the "mute" button. Unlike the Seaton subs, Jeff only uses 1 program. Program 2 on the Seaton subs gives ~3dB of boost down low iirc, but on our subs it should just turn the DSP off. You may want to check in the JTR thread or call Jeff to confirm.


Also.. and possibly most importantly. I didn't see an answer to the poster's question directly after your initial post with your subs FR. He asked if it could have been a resonance from an HVAC or heating system. Did you have heat/ac running when you did these sweeps?? What is VERY suspicious to me is the fact that the 10-11hz hump is present EVEN in your speakers full range graphs without the subs on! I suspect it's something to do with the resonant frequency of your floor or heating/cooling system. Good luck with everything, I hope you can figure out what's going on.
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post #13749 of 13770 Unread Yesterday, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
For the AVR to switch to MULTICH IN mode, it needs to be detecting a multi-channel source signal. It is possible that your PC does not support multi-channel. For example, I have a 3-4 year old laptop that I use, and it only supports two-channel, so I get Stereo. Perhaps this is your case as well?

I believe you can determine whether your PC supports multi-channel by exploring the properties of your audio output device in Windows. If it doesn't, no need to worry. REW can be reasonably functional using Stereo mode.
It's Nvidia High Definition audio with 8 channels supported. Even with just stereo, it should still be PCM so I'm not too worried. Unless you can think of any problems it might cause?
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post #13750 of 13770 Unread Yesterday, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I believe someone reported that a reboot is required for Windows to display the new gain setting.
They stated that the driver had to be uninstalled and reinstalled to get windows to update the correct value.

I could easily live with the reboot, the driver issue is what is the PITA. In any event, it's now clear that what windows shows for the gain, should absolutely match the dip switch settings for the UMIK.

Thanks to mattdub1, we now know there is a way to get windows to show the correct gain setting for the UMIK. I have wondered if the tiny dip switches could be jarred, due to shipping, such that one of them changes state which would negate the calibration with the current sensitivity setting.

Also, from BassThatHz, in the Massive Clipping thread:

The stock umik is only good for 42dbC to 106dbC, outside that range it will be clipping or inaccurate (unless you change the gain.)
At -18db gain it is about 5dbC too high in a quiet room, but with a 1khz sinewave it will be pretty much bang-on.


This gives some insight as to how noise floor is related to the gain and sensitivity factor.
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Do you guys who use Audyssey XT32 find it does much between (approx.) 350Hz-1kHz? [I'm asking here instead of an Audyssey thread because you guys would more likely know for sure.] This seems to be an important range to me, as if they all aren't, and I'd expect to see more action in this range than I do from XT32 here. Perhaps Dirac does more there, I'll have to check tomorrow if there's any comparison.
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post #13752 of 13770 Unread Yesterday, 08:47 PM
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[quote=AustinJerry;32248817]You can run a measurement like right+ subs without unplugging a speaker cable. With Java, you should be using a Y-cable into the left and right RCA connections on your AVR. Simply unplug one side of the Y-cable. Or perhaps you already know this.[/QUOTE

I am not getting what you are saying. I do not have a Amplifier in my chain. Still just running off my Denon X4000. I just have it hooked up speaker wire from AVR to speakers via banana plugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniHT View Post
Rod, going back and looking at your graphs... I have a very similar thing going on in my room as well. I have 3 Cap S2's in ~840cubes and the FR is very flat w/o EQ down to ~4hz. If I open the door, I get about a 8-9dB gain at 7hz, iirc. Oddly enough, If I seal the room even further (weather stripping at the bottom of the door/around the window) the gain is back, although I believe it was a little higher up.. 10-11hz but with ~6-7dB of gain. I wish I would have saved these graphs for you, but I didn't.


If you want to check to see if it's something to do with Jeff's DSP, you can simply hit the "program" button next to the "mute" button. Unlike the Seaton subs, Jeff only uses 1 program. Program 2 on the Seaton subs gives ~3dB of boost down low iirc, but on our subs it should just turn the DSP off. You may want to check in the JTR thread or call Jeff to confirm.


Also.. and possibly most importantly. I didn't see an answer to the poster's question directly after your initial post with your subs FR. He asked if it could have been a resonance from an HVAC or heating system. Did you have heat/ac running when you did these sweeps?? What is VERY suspicious to me is the fact that the 10-11hz hump is present EVEN in your speakers full range graphs without the subs on! I suspect it's something to do with the resonant frequency of your floor or heating/cooling system. Good luck with everything, I hope you can figure out what's going on.
Yeah it is strange. I sent my bedroom graphs to the Cross Spectrum tech. He said that is a classic example of a phenomenon known as Helmholtz Resonance response. I guess the mic isnt faulty I just have strange thing happen to me while using this program haha

I have played with the program button while running graphs and I never noticed anything from changing it to program out. So, I assume Jeff uses one program. I will check with him though.

I always try to run my graphs with my heater off. I have ran some with it running but the graphs never changed from it.
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post #13753 of 13770 Unread Yesterday, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
I just have it hooked up speaker wire from AVR to speakers via banana plugs.
How are you getting the signal from the device running REW (a computer?) to the AVR?
If you're using a speaker out terminal from the computer to L/R inputs of the AVR, that's the RCA plug we're talking about.

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I've run separate L, C and R sweeps for my Fusion 8 Alchemies. As expected, their response is fairly similar. However, when I run them all together (I know, not one of the suggested sweeps, so I'll accept "Don't do that" as a valid reply), I get some additive, as expected, and some not. Not an ideal room by any means, but I would think the summed response would be more similar to the individual sweeps.
Or not?



Using the wonderful new "variable" smoothing feature of REW.

Michael

I thought the key would show up better. Sorry. The blue line on top is the summed response. Pink is center, yellow is right, red is left.
Crossover is at 150.

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^^^^So blue is your L+C+R+Subs? I think the summed response you're looking for applies to the modal region but maybe not so much above. Your summed plot is fairly consistent up to 200Hz. I think cancellation effects become more apparent above this but I'm sure Markus or or one of the other experts can give a much more technical description of exactly what's happening. I know when I measure L+R+Subs that if the mic is not perfectly equidistant from L and R then I get a very steep roll off above 10k. I don't have ASIO working so can't really comment on L+C+R combined responses.

EDIT: After looking at it again, it is curious what's going on from 200-600Hz?

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post #13756 of 13770 Unread Yesterday, 10:06 PM
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Thanks. MLP is closer to the right, but the distance setting in the AVR should account for that, right? Maybe? Sometimes?
I'm thinking that I should try "averaging" the three individual sweeps and see how close that comes to my result. Too late tonight, but I can try that tomorrow. Even if it's not meaningful, it may be interesting.

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post #13757 of 13770 Unread Yesterday, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
How are you getting the signal from the device running REW (a computer?) to the AVR?
If you're using a speaker out terminal from the computer to L/R inputs of the AVR, that's the RCA plug we're talking about.
I am using HDMI from computer to AVR
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post #13758 of 13770 Unread Yesterday, 11:23 PM
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Then I recommend Equalizer APO.
You needn't use it for any other function; just use the Copy command to activate one speaker at a time, as illustrated above.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
Do you guys who use Audyssey XT32 find it does much between (approx.) 350Hz-1kHz? [I'm asking here instead of an Audyssey thread because you guys would more likely know for sure.] This seems to be an important range to me, as if they all aren't, and I'd expect to see more action in this range than I do from XT32 here. Perhaps Dirac does more there, I'll have to check tomorrow if there's any comparison.
It did raise a dip some for me, but also overcompensated by making some peaks higher. My graphs are one page back, and I'm new at this so I haven't learned how to interpret them yet.

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Correct gear for REW?

I have:

Mac Mini computer
Behringer U-Control UCA222
Radio Shack SPL meter

My son hooked his MacBook laptop to my AVR with an HDMI cable, and
the Shack meter to the Behringer with an RCA cable ... OK?

I see the UMIK-1 sells for $80 on Amazon, and
a Dayton EMM-6 sells for $40 ... would either of these be an upgrade and worth the extra $
for just measuring my sub?

Thank You :-)

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^
You need a frequency response calibrated mic. The Radio Shack meter is NOT calibrated.

The EMM-6 is a good mic, comes with a calibration file but requires an audio interface that can provide phantom power. Your Behringer U-Control UCA222 audio interface does NOT provide phantom power.

The UMIK-1 comes with a calibration file and a built-in USB audio interface, i.e. it doesn't need external phantom power. Plug it in an USB port and you're ready to go.

Markus

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post #13762 of 13770 Unread Today, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
Do you guys who use Audyssey XT32 find it does much between (approx.) 350Hz-1kHz? [I'm asking here instead of an Audyssey thread because you guys would more likely know for sure.] This seems to be an important range to me, as if they all aren't, and I'd expect to see more action in this range than I do from XT32 here. Perhaps Dirac does more there, I'll have to check tomorrow if there's any comparison.
Perhaps this measurement of the pre-outs will shed some light on your question. It is an analysis of the differences between XT and XT32, but is also useful to look at the correction that XT32 is applying in the range of interest.



As you can see, XT32 expends a great deal of energy correcting below 300Hz, but above 300Hx the correction energy is much lower.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'm thinking that I should try "averaging" the three individual sweeps and see how close that comes to my result. Too late tonight, but I can try that tomorrow. Even if it's not meaningful, it may be interesting.
Interesting, indeed. I lowered the combined sweep to the dB level of the subs, which matched pretty well.

Left and right averaged, and a left + right sweep:



L R & C averaged, and sweep:



So besides screwing up the polarity on the CDs (which has been corrected), what else could I have possibly done wrong that would explain these results, since I refuse to believe it's just a "bad room."



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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
So besides screwing up the polarity on the CDs (which has been corrected), what else could I have possibly done wrong that would explain these results, since I refuse to believe it's just a "bad room."



Michael
One would have to know exactly how your taking these measurements and what math your using and mic location for each. I am guessing you know that measuring more than one channel at a time will usually give skewed results. If your measuring each channel separately, then we need to see what each separate measurement looks like before and after averaging.

Linking the actual mdat's would be handy also.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
So besides screwing up the polarity on the CDs (which has been corrected), what else could I have possibly done wrong that would explain these results, since I refuse to believe it's just a "bad room."
When you play a sweep through multiple loudspeakers the measured result is the complex sum of all responses, i.e. phase and magnitude are part of the "calculation". When you click the average button in REW phase is ignored and only the magnitude response is averaged.

Markus

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Okay, I'm putting the mic about where my head usually is and hitting "measure."
I have no idea what you mean by "math." I'm just using the "variable smoothing" option, which I thought everyone applauded.
The individual measurements were posted here:
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
However, because I respect your participation in this thread and your expertise, and I love your avatar, I have set up my very own Dropbox account and have placed my mdat.zip file there for you.
Which, BTW, was a royal PITA!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rom8tsj50b....mdat.zip?dl=0
Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
LLAP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
When you click the average button in REW phase is ignored and only the magnitude response is averaged.
So, as I said in yesterday's post, "Don't do that"?

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
As you can see, XT32 expends a great deal of energy correcting below 300Hz, but above 300Hx the correction energy is much lower.
Thanks for the graphs Jerry. But I don't see they answer my question much because it doesn't compare between no correction and XT32 enabled, just between two versions of Audyssey, as far as I can tell. My own results, in the one room I have XT32 here, has led to my oft-posted "I wish Audyssey had a way to just enable SubEQ" because it doesn't appear to do much above ~300Hz here.

Well, that's not totally true because above ~1kHz it does seem to do a little bit, mostly adjust levels only (i.e. curves are identical for treated and untreated, just shifted in level), mostly noticeable well above 10kHz and I'm probably not getting or hearing a lot there anyway from most movies (I only use Audyssey for movies).

It's between 300Hz and 1kHz where I seem to need a bit more help, IIRC (graphs on a different PC) I have significant dips at ~400Hz and ~800Hz (suspicious). This may be partly because of my treatments, I'll have to check pre-treatment files, but in general I'd say my response in the lower-midrange/upper-bass is more ragged than it should be. Needs some work anyway, I don't remember it being this bad before. It is just my FR/FL speakers I'm speaking of BTW, perhaps looking at the results for the C and four surround speakers would help discern whether it's a speaker or room or treatment prob.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
So, as I said in yesterday's post, "Don't do that"?
Depends on what you're trying to do. Both calculations can be useful.

Markus

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
Thanks for the graphs Jerry. But I don't see they answer my question much because it doesn't compare between no correction and XT32 enabled, just between two versions of Audyssey, as far as I can tell. My own results, in the one room I have XT32 here, has led to my oft-posted "I wish Audyssey had a way to just enable SubEQ" because it doesn't appear to do much above ~300Hz here.

Well, that's not totally true because above ~1kHz it does seem to do a little bit, mostly adjust levels only (i.e. curves are identical for treated and untreated, just shifted in level), mostly noticeable well above 10kHz and I'm probably not getting or hearing a lot there anyway from most movies (I only use Audyssey for movies).

It's between 300Hz and 1kHz where I seem to need a bit more help, IIRC (graphs on a different PC) I have significant dips at ~400Hz and ~800Hz (suspicious). This may be partly because of my treatments, I'll have to check pre-treatment files, but in general I'd say my response in the lower-midrange/upper-bass is more ragged than it should be. Needs some work anyway, I don't remember it being this bad before. It is just my FR/FL speakers I'm speaking of BTW, perhaps looking at the results for the C and four surround speakers would help discern whether it's a speaker or room or treatment prob.
Keep in mind that what I posted was the pre-out measurements. If I had posted a measurement of the pre-outs with Auspdyssey off, you would have seen a smooth line, because pre-out measurements have no room effects. So I claim that the measurement I posted answers your question exactly WRT how much correction Audyssey XT32 applies above 300Hz. The only better answer would be to actually measure YOUR in-room response with XT32 on and off, something I cannot do.

BTW, if you want to control correction above a specific frequency, then you should consider Dirac Live as implemented in the very affordable MiniDSP DDRC-88A. Read through the 88A to familiarize yourself with this product if you have not already done so.
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