Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 475 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14221 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I know you gotta be getting pretty wore out by now Matt....but seriously, that blue graph is your best bet. Quit messing around with the front placement, IMO it's never going to work out...all due respect to the other posters.

Get some furniture sliders yet? They're really cheap.
Yeah I plan to do this tonight, just wanted to take all measurements possible before moving it out of the corner again. I believe what you are saying. it seems everywhere in that front corner gives more of a boost on the low end, which scales the curve up the lower the frequency goes. The only thing I am worried about with the blue line location is having less headroom from the sub since I like to listen really loud. It sounds like I might get a flatter response curve here, but will then have to bump the sub channel up to get more SPL because there isn't as much room gain in the lower end. I get the impression that you don't like anything you've seen from that front corner so far, correct? Are the last ones I posted even semi-favorable? I wanted to find the best front corner spot, then compare to the blue line spot and then I can narrow it down to picking between those two based on how they sound.
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post #14222 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
It sounds like I might get a flatter response curve here, but will then have to bump the sub channel up to get more SPL because there isn't as much room gain in the lower end.
So bump the sub channel up.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #14223 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
Yeah I plan to do this tonight, just wanted to take all measurements possible before moving it out of the corner again. I believe what you are saying. it seems everywhere in that front corner gives more of a boost on the low end, which scales the curve up the lower the frequency goes. The only thing I am worried about with the blue line location is having less headroom from the sub since I like to listen really loud. It sounds like I might get a flatter response curve here, but will then have to bump the sub channel up to get more SPL because there isn't as much room gain in the lower end. I get the impression that you don't like anything you've seen from that front corner so far, correct? Are the last ones I posted even semi-favorable? I wanted to find the best front corner spot, then compare to the blue line spot and then I can narrow it down to picking between those two based on how they sound.
IMO, yuck.

Don't be too worried about headroom right now, just get it sounding good and worry about that later....you can always add more subs.

BTW, did you get to listen at all when you had the sub where it produced the most promising graph? If so, how did it sound? I'm guessing you didn't though since you never ran Audyssey in that position......

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post #14224 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 11:41 AM
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Markus, I uploaded several sub-only files to my dropbox. I think this link should work https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0ta2bbt7...V33hXlQWa?dl=0

let me know if it doesn't
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post #14225 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
IMO, yuck.

BTW, did you get to listen at all when you had the sub where it produced the most promising graph? If so, how did it sound? I'm guessing you didn't though since you never ran Audyssey in that position......
Nope, but I will tonight
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post #14226 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 01:20 PM
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In my experience, it's worth trading a bit of extension for a smoother graph with a nice slope that rises from ~80hz to 30hz (and then starts dropping). This is where the vast majority of content lives anyways. You may be down 5-10db at 15hz, but I think you'll like the overall sound better.

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post #14227 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 01:27 PM
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Downloaded the MDAT and wanted to show you what you should expect post-Audyssey.

Now, this is using the EQ function in REW so your post-Audyssey graph might not look quite this good (although it could with a MiniDSP ), but here is before:





And here is after. A perfect "house curve" if you ask me and you can't really expect better from a single sub (especially in that room).

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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #14228 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
Markus, I uploaded several sub-only files to my dropbox. I think this link should work https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0ta2bbt7...V33hXlQWa?dl=0

let me know if it doesn't
That worked, thanks. Based on these single point measurements I'd pick "midwall best 12ftMLP" and run MultEQ. Then measure and post results.

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post #14229 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That worked, thanks. Based on these single point measurements I'd pick "midwall best 12ftMLP" and run MultEQ. Then measure and post results.
I concur.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #14230 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That worked, thanks. Based on these single point measurements I'd pick "midwall best 12ftMLP" and run MultEQ. Then measure and post results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I concur.
I may be mistaken, but I thought Matt previously measured and used Audyssey from that position and it left a pretty big peak around 50hz. I wonder why it didn't smooth that out. I can understand it leaving a dip, but a peak?
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post #14231 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 07:25 PM
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alright guys, hopefully the moment of truth here.... I measured in that spot as Markus and AlanP suggested. I confirmed I had it in the right place by running the sub-only graph again prior to audyssey. Attached is a comparison between my front corner position (red) and the position behind the couch along the wall (blue). To me, they don't look that much different surprisingly, but I could be wrong. I ran them at the same exact AVR settings and volume settings. Interestingly, audyssey set the trim to -10.5 in the position behind the couch, but it was set at -8 when running in the corner. so, i think this theoretically means I get a little more headroom behind the couch?

I don't like the 22hz dip on the blue graph because I don't want to miss out on the ultra low frequencies, and there's a dip at 65-70hz. I also don't like the placement as much as the front, but will definitely leave it here if it gives the best response. On the red graph, I still get the ringing at 50 hz it looks like on the waterfall, and then there's the dip at 55hz. I might be able to play with the PEQ or slightly move the position a few inches to see if I can tame the ringing/peak, if you think the corner graph looks best. I also did not get a chance to sit and do critical listening between the two positions yet.

What do you guys think? I'd like to know the reasoning behind your choice so I can learn what you guys are looking for in deciding. Thanks
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post #14232 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 07:27 PM
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I may be mistaken, but I thought Matt previously measured and used Audyssey from that position and it left a pretty big peak around 50hz. I wonder why it didn't smooth that out. I can understand it leaving a dip, but a peak?
the 50hz peak was in my front corner, I hadn't run audyssey in the position behind the couch until tonight.
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post #14233 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 07:48 PM
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Alan and markus- thank you both for taking time to look into those .mdat files. And thank you to everyone so far who has helped me with this exhausting journey...it is very much appreciated
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post #14234 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
the 50hz peak was in my front corner, I hadn't run audyssey in the position behind the couch until tonight.
But from what I remember, the title of the chart showing the 50hz peak contained "With Audyssey". Or so I thought.

So now that you found the best spot and have it EQed, how does it sound compared to where you started with this process?
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post #14235 of 14319 Old 03-24-2015, 08:10 PM
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^^yeah it did have audyssey on but I had run audyssey with the bath door shut so I think it changed the results because I took that sweep with door open. The red one I just posted is that same front corner position with the 50hz peak before, where audyssey was now run with the door open, and the corresponding sweep with the door open. I haven't had a chance to listen yet so not sure. Was hoping to get some input as to which graph looks better to you guys before I can listen and compare.

Last edited by mattdub1; 03-24-2015 at 08:14 PM.
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post #14236 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
alright guys, hopefully the moment of truth here.... I measured in that spot as Markus and AlanP suggested. I confirmed I had it in the right place by running the sub-only graph again prior to audyssey. Attached is a comparison between my front corner position (red) and the position behind the couch along the wall (blue). To me, they don't look that much different surprisingly, but I could be wrong. I ran them at the same exact AVR settings and volume settings. Interestingly, audyssey set the trim to -10.5 in the position behind the couch, but it was set at -8 when running in the corner. so, i think this theoretically means I get a little more headroom behind the couch?

I don't like the 22hz dip on the blue graph because I don't want to miss out on the ultra low frequencies, and there's a dip at 65-70hz. I also don't like the placement as much as the front, but will definitely leave it here if it gives the best response. On the red graph, I still get the ringing at 50 hz it looks like on the waterfall, and then there's the dip at 55hz. I might be able to play with the PEQ or slightly move the position a few inches to see if I can tame the ringing/peak, if you think the corner graph looks best. I also did not get a chance to sit and do critical listening between the two positions yet.

What do you guys think? I'd like to know the reasoning behind your choice so I can learn what you guys are looking for in deciding. Thanks
As you say, they are both very similar...neither are ideal but maybe the best you can do with a single sub in that room. I agree that the red graph looks slightly better.

Quote:
I haven't had a chance to listen yet so not sure.
Well, you missed the most important step then.

I would listen to both and see which sounds better. IME, similar graphs from different sub locations can actually sound quite different.


Also, you obviously still have more extension below your 15hz limit, you should measure down to 10hz just to see.

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post #14237 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 07:49 AM
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Thanks Alan. Why do you think the red looks better? More even slope? Doesn't the waterfall on the blue look better BC it doesn't have as much ringing?
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post #14238 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
Thanks Alan. Why do you think the red looks better?
The red is up ~8db at ~68hz and almost 10db at ~23hz. However, the blue is overall smoother between ~28-60hz....kind of a six-of-one half-a-dozen-of-the-other situation. That's why I suggest listening to determine which placement sounds better.


Quote:
Doesn't the waterfall on the blue look better BC it doesn't have as much ringing?
The blue has less ringing between 40-50hz but more below 20hz (even though the SPL is lower below 20hz vs. the red). Once again, it's a trade-off and I would go with whichever sounds better.


BTW, I think the Spectrogram graph is a better way to see ringing than the waterfall graph.


You need to stop obsessing over your graphs now and go listen.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #14239 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 08:29 AM
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...BTW, I think the Spectrogram graph is a better way to see ringing than the waterfall graph.
Interesting. Can you please elaborate?

Quote:
You need to stop obsessing over your graphs now and go listen.
Well, this is AVS. But that said I completely agree. Matt its like you have made two good looking dishes and are asking your friends to look at them and judge which one tastes better. The first thing they will do is grab a fork and dig in. Let us know which dish you like better.
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post #14240 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
Attached is a comparison between my front corner position (red) and the position behind the couch along the wall (blue).
Could you upload the .mdat for these two? Do you have before/after MultEQ?

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post #14241 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 09:03 AM
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Interesting. Can you please elaborate?
The spectrogram is basically a downward look at the waterfall. It's easier to see "flames" rising above 450 indicating ringing.
Besides, the colors are cooler.
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post #14242 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 09:24 AM
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Ah yes, the flames of death.
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post #14243 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Could you upload the .mdat for these two? Do you have before/after MultEQ?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0ta2bbt7...V33hXlQWa?dl=0

Before audyssey
Corner spot = LRsubCrnrNoaudDropen (this was an LR+sub measurement)
behind couch spot = midwall best12ftMLP (this was ONLY a sub measurement)

After audyssey

Corner spot= file that says March 24th with timestamp (LR+sub measurement)
behind couch spot= bhnd cch Waudy nrmlcc (LR+sub measurement)
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post #14244 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 09:52 AM
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^
Thanks. I'd choose bhnd cch Waudy nrmlcc.

As I'm a generally mean-spirited person here's your waterfall post MultEQ...



...and my nearfield sub in a room with virtually no low frequency treatment (post Dirac Live, crossover at 120Hz plus custom target curve)...

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post #14245 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 10:00 AM
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Just so Matt doesn't feel too bad, here's my WF (at 300ms) with dual T-18s (that I've spent countless hours tweaking):

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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #14246 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
As I'm a generally mean-spirited person here's your waterfall post MultEQ...
Actually, mine doesn't look as bad at 300ms as I thought it would.



But the ringing is still easier to see on the spectrograph:



Don't jump out the window just yet, Matt. Just do the best you can with what you have (for now).
Michael

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post #14247 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 10:17 AM
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I see Alan and I are on the same page!


Hats off to you, though, Marcus.

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post #14248 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 10:27 AM
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Marcus has an impressive graph indeed, but one must realize that lots of things become different in a nearfield scenario. For instance, if you move your main speakers to nearfield, your ETC's will show much lower reflection levels. But who listens to their speaker 2' away? I also wonder/question a nearfield sub on the basis of phase. That is to say that the bass energy will arrive well before the other frequencies (assuming your mains are not nearfield).

So while a nearfield sub may yield certain benefits, it also creates a disparity in time arrival.

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post #14249 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Ah yes, the flames of death.
The red area in your graph I suppose would indicate a major issue (by being red of course), but it seems to be focused in the 100-200ms area which isn't really significant until it get beyond say 300ms. So am I not interpreting the presentation in this chart correctly?
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post #14250 of 14319 Old 03-25-2015, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Just so Matt doesn't feel too bad, here's my WF (at 300ms) with dual T-18s (that I've spent countless hours tweaking):

Have you tried using an acoustical treatments - in particular large bass traps? I wonder if that would tame your ringing?
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