Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 484 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14491 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post
Ya after 6 hours now of trying im throwing the towel in. Going to do what you suggested in the other thread
You keep asking for a guide that explains how to use Java. The guide used in this thread explains both. Are you still having trouble finding the appropriate section?
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post #14492 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 12:59 PM
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Ya after 6 hours now of trying im throwing the towel in. Going to do what you suggested in the other thread
For those of us not following the other thread - the suggestion you are trying next is to do what?
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post #14493 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post
I have been following Austinjerrys guide. I made it through all the steps until the part where you select Asio in REW.

I can't get both the output and input to show. It's usually one or the other I can get the avr but not the mic under input.
To select an input and an output that are not on the same device with ASIO4All it MUST be in Advanced mode, to get into Advanced mode click the wrench in the lower right corner, a red X then appears over it so the right hand side of your ASIO4All panel will look like this:

Click image for larger version

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In the Advanced mode you can select both the UMIK input and the HDMI output to your AVR. You now need to get REW to reload the ASIO inputs and outputs so the newly selected channels become available. To do that you can close and reopen REW, or switch the driver selection to Java then back to ASIO and select ASIO4All again. The inputs and outputs for the devices you previously selected should then be available.
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post #14494 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Ok, I found this....not quite as good, but not terrible, not much I can do with the stuff down so low.


Take a look at these two graphs. Which one shows better resonance control?





Spoiler!



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post #14495 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post
To select an input and an output that are not on the same device with ASIO4All it MUST be in Advanced mode, to get into Advanced mode click the wrench in the lower right corner, a red X then appears over it so the right hand side of your ASIO4All panel will look like this:

Attachment 659369

In the Advanced mode you can select both the UMIK input and the HDMI output to your AVR. You now need to get REW to reload the ASIO inputs and outputs so the newly selected channels become available. To do that you can close and reopen REW, or switch the driver selection to Java then back to ASIO and select ASIO4All again. The inputs and outputs for the devices you previously selected should then be available.
Thank you, John. It is encouraging to see that you have experienced some of the same issues with ASIO as we have. There is an ASIO trouble-shooting section in the Guide (pages 39-41) which essentially states the same steps you have outlined.

I might add that a prayer to the appropriate deity might be called for as well.
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post #14496 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Take a look at these two graphs. Which one shows better resonance control?

Spoiler!



So the only difference was that one was taking 15 dB louder? Don't most folks tend to measure at 75 dB? Seems like its better to measure around the typical volume used to listen, yes? So if one tends to watch with MV of -10 dB its best to measure at 95 dB to see what the real response is like?
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post #14497 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 10:53 PM
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My whole room dissolves at 95db measurements so I stick to 90max but my tests show exact same results from 75-95db.

I thought I might add that i don't understand the waterfall yet so I have to do more reading in regards to that!

Last edited by brettus; 04-10-2015 at 10:57 PM. Reason: More info
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post #14498 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
So the only difference was that one was taking 15 dB louder? Don't most folks tend to measure at 75 dB? Seems like its better to measure around the typical volume used to listen, yes? So if one tends to watch with MV of -10 dB its best to measure at 95 dB to see what the real response is like?
No, it's better to measure at a level that is sufficiently high above the noise floor. The noise floor varies from room to room which makes it hard to give a general recommendation at what absolute SPL to measure. It depends on the environment.
It also depends on the speaker's capabilities. For example, you don't get proper readings if the test signal drives the speaker into compression.

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post #14499 of 15803 Old 04-10-2015, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
TThat is why consistency in presenting graphs is so important in this thread, especially measurement levels.
No, not the absolute level of the test signal is important, the scaling of the graph is. You can make more of the waterfall visible simply by moving it up and down with the scrollbar on the left hand side.

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post #14500 of 15803 Old 04-11-2015, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
No, not the absolute level of the test signal is important, the scaling of the graph is. You can make more of the waterfall visible simply by moving it up and down with the scrollbar on the left hand side.
The point I am trying to make is that there should be consistency in presenting the graphs. Since a number of people continue to have difficulty in interpreting waterfall graphs, presentation consistency removes one variable. We have advocated showing the noise floor as the lower limit, and setting the measurement level at ~+40dB, making it 80-90dB for the typical listening room, and using a time window of 450ms. Following these guidelines make it easier for the average viewer to compare results.

As I believe JohnPM and others have mentioned, it is really the first 20dB down from the top of the waterfall that should be the focus of attention, noting whether the time slices are evenly spaced, and that there is no "ridge" that starts at the top and extends all the way to the noise floor. If you care to present a more accurate and easily understood way of interpreting the waterfall, I would be happy to include it in the Guide, attributing it to you, of course.
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post #14501 of 15803 Old 04-11-2015, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The point I am trying to make is that there should be consistency in presenting the graphs.
That was my point as well If you want to compare graphs they have to have the same scaling. Everything else is secondary. Use the scrollbar on the left to move the graph up. Absolute SPL is negligible as long as the test signal was loud enough.

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post #14502 of 15803 Old 04-11-2015, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
as long as the test signal was loud enough.
That's not really a workable explanation. Loud enough for me may not be loud enough for you.

Can we just stick with the 90dB?
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post #14503 of 15803 Old 04-11-2015, 02:43 PM
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^
Depends on the noise floor of the particular room and how loud the speaker can go without significant distortion.

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post #14504 of 15803 Old 04-12-2015, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The point I am trying to make is that there should be consistency in presenting the graphs.
I agree with Marcus regarding the scaling. But I think in pinning down the absolute magnitude (how loud in db) of our measuring level, it has upside and downside. Upside to consistent magnitude (level) is when comparing charts (different peoples graphs). The downside is that each graph isnt optimized to their room (noise floors are different, requiring a DIFFERENCE in magnitude or measuring level) to stay the same amount of db above ones own noise floor.

On this note, I am not sure we all agree on how to measure the noise floor itself. Consistency depends on this agreement as much as the other.

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No, not the absolute level of the test signal is important, the scaling of the graph is. You can make more of the waterfall visible simply by moving it up and down with the scrollbar on the left hand side.
Since scaling is dependant the on "limits" setting, how many DB your showing vertically is the key to scaling as I am understanding what you mean. Along those lines, whats beyond -40db is almost irrelevant. So would say showing 50db (+10/-40db) solve the scaling issue?

Something like this?
Click image for larger version

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Leaving in the blue line pointer (72db in my case) for our graphs allows us to put a line at -20db in the average bass region. This makes interpretation and comparison easier with a -20db visible division on the graph. Showing the control panel settings is also helpful.

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post #14505 of 15803 Old 04-12-2015, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Depends on the noise floor of the particular room and how loud the speaker can go without significant distortion.
OK on noise floor. How likely is it that a speaker&amp can't get to 90dB? Esp. 5 or 7 speakers in a home theater which seems to be the majority here?

Do we have a procedure for determining when a speaker has reached its limits?
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post #14506 of 15803 Old 04-12-2015, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Since scaling is dependant the on "limits" setting, how many DB your showing vertically is the key to scaling as I am understanding what you mean.
Your understanding is correct.

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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Along those lines, whats beyond -40db is almost irrelevant. So would say showing 50db (+10/-40db) solve the scaling issue?
A "window" showing 50dB is probably a good idea but it doesn't need to be +10/-40dB. The absolute SPL is NOT relevant.

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post #14507 of 15803 Old 04-12-2015, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Your understanding is correct.



A "window" showing 50dB is probably a good idea but it doesn't need to be +10/-40dB. The absolute SPL is NOT relevant.
No, but it makes chart comparison easier if everyones SPL level was 5-10db below the top of the graph.(see previous waterfall pic).

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post #14508 of 15803 Old 04-12-2015, 08:14 AM
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Do we have a procedure for determining when a speaker has reached its limits?
This is one of the many important performance parameters virtually every manufacturer hides from its customer. Quite frustrating.

REW can be used to determine limits. Measure distortion for example. Or measure at increasing test signal levels. At one point the speaker doesn't go louder because of thermal compression. This is unfortunately the point where the speaker could get damaged.

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post #14509 of 15803 Old 04-12-2015, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
OK on noise floor. How likely is it that a speaker&amp can't get to 90dB? Esp. 5 or 7 speakers in a home theater which seems to be the majority here?

Do we have a procedure for determining when a speaker has reached its limits?
At 1k, my speakers have a 1watt/ 1M sensitivity of 87db. At the LP it is 79db. So I need about 11-12 watts of power to get to 90db (one channel driven) at the LP. No problem. But I suppose it is possible that small inefficient speakers located many feet away might push a small amp into clipping at 90SPLdb. On the other hand, a system that clips at 90SPLdb isnt a very capable one in the first place. Not the kind most here probably own.

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
This is one of the many important performance parameters virtually every manufacturer hides from its customer. Quite frustrating.

REW can be used to determine limits. Measure distortion for example. Or measure at increasing test signal levels. At one point the speaker doesn't go louder because of thermal compression. This is unfortunately the point where the speaker could get damaged.
Agreed. But I dont think any should have a problem at 85-90SPLdb at their LP.

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post #14510 of 15803 Old 04-12-2015, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
At 1k, my speakers have a 1watt/ 1M sensitivity of 87db. At the LP it is 79db.
How do you measure your speaker sensitivity with REW? Thanks.
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post #14511 of 15803 Old 04-12-2015, 09:06 AM
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How do you measure your speaker sensitivity with REW? Thanks.
Firstly, the 87db is a published figure for my speaker. Into 8 ohms, 1W = 2.83v. So, approximately, when you run a sine wave and measure 2.83v into an 8 ohm speaker, your at 1 watt. To be fair, you would have to know the exact impedance of the load at a given frequency for this to truly be accurate. This is a ballpark measurement only. But if you know the published figure for your speaker, and you get the same thing, then your close enough.

Then you can measure 1M away, then from the LP to determine your measured SPL's. I have a handheld SPL meter also for further verification.

FYI, you lose about 6db for every doubling of the distance from one point to another in relation to the source. So 87SPL/1w/1m should correspond to 81SPL/1w/2m. And so on.

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post #14512 of 15803 Old 04-16-2015, 12:53 PM
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Sometimes, measured speaker distortion can be something unexpected and easy to fix.

Speaker Distortion

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post #14513 of 15803 Old 04-16-2015, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Sometimes, measured speaker distortion can be something unexpected and easy to fix.

Speaker Distortion
Very interesting - thanks for posting this! Is this something you were able to hear, or did the graph alert you to it? Am I right to assume that having all the harmonics peaking around 470hz on the graph is this distortion showing up in the measurement? I wonder why this shows up only in the harmonics and not in the THD??

That said, what is the difference between those two graphs you posted - one is measuring the "bad" speaker and the other is a good speaker, as a comparison?

Why is the THD *lower* here compare to the peaks around 65 and 125? Does that mean you have distortion there too?
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post #14514 of 15803 Old 04-16-2015, 01:22 PM
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Very interesting - thanks for posting this! Is this something you were able to hear, or did the graph alert you to it?
The graph alerted me. But there was an audible anomaly I heard at times. But the peak was very narrow. A note would have to hit just right for it to be audible.

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Am I right to assume that having all the harmonics peaking around 470hz on the graph is this distortion showing up in the measurement?
Yes

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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I wonder why this shows up only in the harmonics and not in the THD??
Because the 2nd harmonic, which I omitted, was/is the main contributing distortion harmonic and it wasnt elevated do to the problem.

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That said, what is the difference between those two graphs you posted - one is measuring the "bad" speaker and the other is a good speaker, as a comparison?
Same speaker. One is a louder measurement. The harmonic distortion peaks didnt show up until the speaker was pretty loud which is why I failed to discover this earlier.

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Why is the THD *lower* here compare to the peaks around 65 and 125? Does that mean you have distortion there too?
No. Keep in mind, this was the mid and tweeter only. Once I hook up all the drivers, things look fine.

Click image for larger version

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Something else to consider on the subject. The higher harmonics, while generally lower in measurement, are easier to hear. So if you see 5th, 7th, or 9th harmonics all elevated above or close to the 2nd or 3rd, you know there is a problem.

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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
The graph alerted me. But there was an audible anomaly I heard at times. But the peak was very narrow. A note would have to hit just right for it to be audible.



Yes



Because the 2nd harmonic, which I omitted, was/is the main contributing distortion harmonic and it wasnt elevated do to the problem.



Same speaker. One is a louder measurement. The harmonic distortion peaks didnt show up until the speaker was pretty loud which is why I failed to discover this earlier.

No. Keep in mind, this was the mid and tweeter only. Once I hook up all the drivers, things look fine.

Attachment 669697

Something else to consider on the subject. The higher harmonics, while generally lower in measurement, are easier to hear. So if you see 5th, 7th, or 9th harmonics all elevated above or close to the 2nd or 3rd, you know there is a problem.
Great information there - thanks so much again for sharing it. Hopefully it'll be added to the distortion section in the REW Users guide.

Just the mid and tweeter in those graphs - do I understand then that you physically disconnected the wires on them to do that?
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post #14516 of 15803 Old 04-16-2015, 02:22 PM
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Hopefully it'll be added to the distortion section in the REW Users guide.
Yes, please. I was about to request the same.
Maybe it will help me find the other screws I have loose.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Great information there - thanks so much again for sharing it. Hopefully it'll be added to the distortion section in the REW Users guide.

Just the mid and tweeter in those graphs - do I understand then that you physically disconnected the wires on them to do that?
Didnt have to. The speakers were built with separate input connectors for the woofer and the mid/tweeter.

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Click image for larger version

Name:	04 16 15 mid 102db distortion.jpg
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For those who dont go to links, this is the graph. If you see something like this around 470hz, tighten your drivers mounting screws.

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post #14519 of 15803 Old 04-16-2015, 03:23 PM
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Attachment 669801

For those who dont go to links, this is the graph. If you see something like this around 470hz, tighten your drivers mounting screws.
Hate to say it, Jim, but many of us always thought you had a screw loose...
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post #14520 of 15803 Old 04-16-2015, 03:32 PM
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Hate to say it, Jim, but many of us always thought you had a screw loose...
Bet you didn't know I had 6 loose

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