Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 493 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14761 of 14790 Old 05-18-2015, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If your objective is to measure a speaker without the bass contribution of the sub, then yes, set it to Large.
Do I need to dissable the sub in my AVR setup (under speaker configuration, set the subs to NONE)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You can use HDMI4 to isolate the subs for measuring, but be aware that the sub LFE channel has a 10dB boost.
This is only used when I want to measure my sub alone?

Sorry if those are dumb questions. Just want to make sure I understand it correctly.
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post #14762 of 14790 Old 05-18-2015, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by owlvn View Post
Do I need to dissable the sub in my AVR setup (under speaker configuration, set the subs to NONE)?
This is only used when I want to measure my sub alone?

Sorry if those are dumb questions. Just want to make sure I understand it correctly.
If the speaker is set to Large, then no bass is re-directed to the sub, so there is no need to take further action--the sub will be quiet.

And yes, output to HDMI4 sends a signal to the sub only.
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post #14763 of 14790 Old 05-18-2015, 02:47 PM
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So I went down to the local builders place today and had a look around for some rock wool. They just had the one type, the rolls and they didnt know the density although judging by the RW I've seen online, this roll isn't too dense. Bought 1 roll just to give it a shot, put it in the corners either side of the screen, but didnt make too much of a difference, quite a few areas would need to be done. I might order some of the Rockwool panels/sections recommended on various sites. Will have to get it online. With regards to the roll it might do for behind the screen, if you have a look at the image below you can see there is quite a bit of space behind the screen. That may be contributing to the issue. Would I get away with filling just the open area? i.e. Leave the space but fill the opening with the rockwool, or should I just pack the hole thing with it? (Pic is a bit blurry, mid build and there is wood panels over the front just leaving the opening in the middle)

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post #14764 of 14790 Old 05-18-2015, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by owlvn View Post
The reason I want to measure each sub individually is to see its FR and how adding another one would help with FR due to room mode. Also I am curious how one could optmize sub placement if having more than one sub.
That's a complicated thing. But it boils down to following Welti's or Geddes' recommendations.
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post #14765 of 14790 Old 05-18-2015, 07:06 PM
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Bought 1 roll just to give it a shot, put it in the corners either side of the screen, but didnt make too much of a difference, ... Would I get away with filling just the open area? i.e. Leave the space but fill the opening with the rockwool, or should I just pack the hole thing with it?
Did you remove it from its packaging or at least slit it open? In the package it won't do much.

I think filling the area would work but you'll probably get better advice on the Acoustical Treatment Master Thread.
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post #14766 of 14790 Old 05-18-2015, 07:27 PM
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^
The membrane needs to be closer. As close as possible.
Markus,

Quick question for you on near field sub placement to the Main Listening Position (MLP).

What is the minimum crossover frequency between the satellites and and subs to eliminate sub localization issues? THX recommends 80Hz and DonH50 participated in an group test on sub localization. From memory, DonH50 said that:

(1) Below 60Hz, no one in the test group was able to localize the sub;
(2) At 80Hz, the vast majority of the test group wasn't able to localize the sub;
(3) Above 100Hz, a greater portion of the test group were able to localize the sub.

Believe DonH50 had the paper published in AES. With your suggestion of the driver being less than 2' away from the listener's ears, wondering what is the appropriate crossover frequency?

Thanks.

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post #14767 of 14790 Old 05-18-2015, 08:33 PM
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This is my first dyno pull of my Klipsch RW12,soon to be a Marty Cube.

The umik-1 was easy to fire up and get a base measurement.
I was quickly asked to stop making noise,so as much as I would like to tinker all night I'll have to wait until the house is empty.
In the meantime I have lots of reading to do on the subject.
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post #14768 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Did you remove it from its packaging or at least slit it open? In the package it won't do much.

I think filling the area would work but you'll probably get better advice on the Acoustical Treatment Master Thread.
Yeah will ask in there, cheers Artur. Had it out of the packaging. Going through all this really explains why I had the issues I had. Its funny how acoustics of the room is something people often neglect or dont know about! (Including myself til now)
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post #14769 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Markus,

Quick question for you on near field sub placement to the Main Listening Position (MLP).

What is the minimum crossover frequency between the satellites and and subs to eliminate sub localization issues? THX recommends 80Hz and DonH50 participated in an group test on sub localization. From memory, DonH50 said that:

(1) Below 60Hz, no one in the test group was able to localize the sub;
(2) At 80Hz, the vast majority of the test group wasn't able to localize the sub;
(3) Above 100Hz, a greater portion of the test group were able to localize the sub.

Believe DonH50 had the paper published in AES. With your suggestion of the driver being less than 2' away from the listener's ears, wondering what is the appropriate crossover frequency?

Thanks.
There's a tradeoff between localizability and bass quality. I've chosen quality and have my crossover set to 100Hz. But I do use Dirac Live's target editor to create a steep fall-off one octave below and above (R and SW):

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post #14770 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Its Chris View Post
So I went down to the local builders place today and had a look around for some rock wool. They just had the one type, the rolls and they didnt know the density although judging by the RW I've seen online, this roll isn't too dense. Bought 1 roll just to give it a shot, put it in the corners either side of the screen, but didnt make too much of a difference, quite a few areas would need to be done. I might order some of the Rockwool panels/sections recommended on various sites. Will have to get it online. With regards to the roll it might do for behind the screen, if you have a look at the image below you can see there is quite a bit of space behind the screen. That may be contributing to the issue. Would I get away with filling just the open area? i.e. Leave the space but fill the opening with the rockwool, or should I just pack the hole thing with it? (Pic is a bit blurry, mid build and there is wood panels over the front just leaving the opening in the middle)
Yep, fill the whole thing with fluffy mineral wool. Especially the corner on the right.

Get the mineral wool out of the packaging if it's really tightly packaged. If the packaging is just loosely covering the fiberglass it will still work but will reflect higher frequencies which can be desirable under some circumstances.

Make sure to wear a mask when handling fiber glass. You don't want to have those fibers in your lungs. Don't forget to mount some kind of trickle protection in front of the whole thing to prevent fibers from escaping into the room.

Markus

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post #14771 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 01:53 AM
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Yep, fill the whole thing with fluffy mineral wool. Especially the corner on the right.

Get the mineral wool out of the packaging if it's really tightly packaged. If the packaging is just loosely covering the fiberglass it will still work but will reflect higher frequencies which can be desirable under some circumstances.

Make sure to wear a mask when handling fiber glass. You don't want to have those fibers in your lungs. Don't forget to mount some kind of trickle protection in front of the whole thing to prevent fibers from escaping into the room.
Would the roll type be good enough for that? It would'nt be that dense, but then again filling that space it would be quite thick. When you said especially the right, did you mean the right behind the screen or where the av gear is?
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post #14772 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 01:59 AM
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^
What's the flow resistivity of that fiber glass?

I've meant the right corner where the gear is. As said before I would soffit mount the speakers in there. If you need to keep the gear at the front then mount it down low at the floor.

I would suggest to move this discussion to a more appropriate thread.

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post #14773 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
What's the flow resistivity of that fiber glass?

I've meant the right corner where the gear is. As said before I would soffit mount the speakers in there. If you need to keep the gear at the front then mount it down low at the floor.

I would suggest to move this discussion to a more appropriate thread.
Yeah I was just going to say the same Markus, I've already posted in the acoustic treatment thread, dont want to keep dragging this thread off topic. Cheers for the advice!
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post #14774 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 06:10 AM
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I was quickly asked to stop making noise,so as much as I would like to tinker all night I'll have to wait until the house is empty.
Yeah, that's happened once or twice around here.

Have fun.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #14775 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 08:23 AM
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That's a complicated thing. But it boils down to following Welti's or Geddes' recommendations.
Could you be more specific? What are Welti's or Geddes' recommendations? Or could you point me to their threads?
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post #14776 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 08:43 AM
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Yeah, that's happened once or twice around here.

Have fun.
I either ask them to go get a burger while I work or I wait until they have things to do.

I really feel for the dogs, though....
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post #14777 of 14790 Old 05-19-2015, 08:57 AM
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Could you be more specific? What are Welti's or Geddes' recommendations? Or could you point me to their threads?
We've talked about these methods in this thread (search is your friend, I hope) and there are other AVS threads with info.

Here are some links to get you started.

Harman/Welti PPT
Geddes PPT
Article on Geddes
I hate videos but there's one on youtube with geddes. If I include the link it embeds it so I didn't
Search over AVS. Lots of threads.
Welti Interview
Geddes step by step overview
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REW can add sub placements together to simulate you have 2 subwoofers, I've done it. I posted in HTS and John helped me a few years back.
(Hard to find that on a iPhone)

If your room is pretty symmetrical and rectangular then a good starting point for multiple subs beyond the mid points/corners is the 1/4 from wall point.


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post #14779 of 14790 Old 05-20-2015, 02:36 AM
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I either ask them to go get a burger while I work or I wait until they have things to do.

I really feel for the dogs, though....
I may implement a random firedrill to the household for safety...
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post #14780 of 14790 Old 05-21-2015, 09:01 AM
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How do you guys feel about using RTA and pink noise to find correct speaker, MLP, and sub placements? It would be so much quicker.
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post #14781 of 14790 Old 05-21-2015, 03:18 PM
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^
Different rules apply for picking the best spot for sub, speaker and listening position. Measurement technique to verify that you've reached your goals is secondary.

Markus

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But as an alternative to "move a little, measure, move a little, measure"... Can't we use some form of RTA + pink noise and put it up on the TV to speed up the process? Real time feedback. Or are there limitations that I'm not aware of. I'm just thinking out loud, but I might play with this.
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post #14783 of 14790 Old 05-21-2015, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
There's a tradeoff between localizability and bass quality. I've chosen quality and have my crossover set to 100Hz. But I do use Dirac Live's target editor to create a steep fall-off one octave below and above (R and SW):

Can you please elaborate on the strategy and reasoning behind setting your curve that way? Thanks.
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post #14784 of 14790 Old Yesterday, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
But as an alternative to "move a little, measure, move a little, measure"... Can't we use some form of RTA + pink noise and put it up on the TV to speed up the process? Real time feedback. Or are there limitations that I'm not aware of. I'm just thinking out loud, but I might play with this.
You can use this technique for the sub:
https://mehlau.net/audio/room-correction-peq/

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post #14785 of 14790 Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Can you please elaborate on the strategy and reasoning behind setting your curve that way? Thanks.
Let me describe how I approach this with Dirac Live.

I'm trying to get a common crossover point for all speakers. This will lead to the most predictable results. So what I do first is to measure all speakers, check how low they can go and determine a common crossover point that is achievable with EQ. Ideally this would be 80Hz.

Then group all satellite speakers in DLCT, load your preferred target curve into that set and set the lowest breakpoint one octave below your desired crossover frequency. Move the "curtain" to the left (or edit your target curve file and set LOWLIMITHZ to 10), add another breakpoint below and drag it down. The resulting curve should look similar to the blue curve in the response graph above.
Do the same for your sub, i.e. set the highest breakpoint one octave above your desired crossover frequency. Move the curtain to the right (or edit HIGHLIMITHZ in your target curve file), add another breakpoint above and drag it down. The resulting curve should look similar to the red curve in the response graph above.

Click optimize for sub and satellite speaker set and load filters into the 88A.

Now set the crossover in your AVR to the common crossover frequency you've determined in the beginning. Also make sure the crossover slopes in your AVR are symmetrical and add constructively.
Often different filters with different slopes are used. This will screw up the response in the crossover region. Some bass management filters will even create a deep notch at the crossover frequency because sub and satellite add destructively (2nd order Linkwitz-Riley for example - you would need to invert your sub connection). Even when filters add correctly you might get a bump. For example standard 12dB Butterworth filter create a 3dB bump around the crossover frequency.

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post #14786 of 14790 Old Yesterday, 07:37 PM
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Let me describe how I approach this with Dirac Live.
Very interesting, Markus. My approach with Dirac Live has been to simply accept the Auto Targets and be done with it. Do you have any in-room measurements that compare the simple Auto Target results with the approach you have described? I would be interested in the improvements.
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Hi guys - Its been a while since I last measured my room and calibrated it. All this talk here got me curious of how I did a while back and wanted to revisit it. My measurement (mdat) is here https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...Ujg&authuser=0 . I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I did. It sounds great. Note that I have a house curve I think its +8 at 20 Hz down to 0 at 80 Hz so running hot is intentional.

This is in a room with an open wall, making it acoustically speaking a very wide room. Sub is 7 feet to the side of the MLP. Considering that there are NO room treatments whatsoever, I think the waterfall looks very good. I guess that's the result of having the room so wide?

I am particularly curious if I have an issue with reflections that may impact my sound staging/imaging or cause a reverb or echo. Not that I hear anything like that. But with drywall on the ceiling, side wall (other side wall is effectively not there, since its way on the other side due to being an open room), and back wall (which I sit up against), and a hard berber carpet, I would think reflections would be plenty. I didn't see where the ETC graph was.

This is a measurement of the front L channel plus sub (HSU VTF3 MK2), EQ'ed using a BFD. The EQ makes a huge difference, some really strong peaks otherwise.

It'll be great to hear what you guys think and what type of reflection issues I may or may not have. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Very interesting, Markus. My approach with Dirac Live has been to simply accept the Auto Targets and be done with it. Do you have any in-room measurements that compare the simple Auto Target results with the approach you have described? I would be interested in the improvements.
I don't bother with the auto target because it doesn't match my speaker directivity nor my requirements for equal loudness compensation.

Here's the graph from above showing how close DL gets the response to a target curve:

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Here's the graph from above showing how close DL gets the response to a target curve:
And what are the same graphs but with crossovers applied (plus combined response)?
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^
Here's the combined response:

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