Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 494 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14791 of 14814 Old 05-23-2015, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I don't bother with the auto target because it doesn't match my speaker directivity nor my requirements for equal loudness compensation...
What's the general rule of thumb when it comes to setting a target curve around the directivity of the speakers?

Also curious what you think of my measurements in this post Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs if you have the time. Thanks.
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post #14792 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 01:09 AM
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^
Don't know what I'm looking at. Looks like a comparison of different screen materials taken with a Radio Shack meter? I'd recommend getting a properly calibrated mic, e.g. UMIK-1.

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post #14793 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Don't know what I'm looking at.
Sorry, that was the wrong link. Please get the MDAT here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...eDg&authuser=0 .
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post #14794 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Let me describe how I approach this with Dirac Live.

I'm trying to get a common crossover point for all speakers. This will lead to the most predictable results. So what I do first is to measure all speakers, check how low they can go and determine a common crossover point that is achievable with EQ. Ideally this would be 80Hz.
What criteria do you look for to determine "how low they can go"? Must not drop more than x dB by what point, what what threshold do you use for x?

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Then group all satellite speakers in DLCT, load your preferred target curve...
How do you get a feel for what a preferred target curve is? I know what my preferred target curve is for the low end. I assume that is what's referred to as a "house curve". I have that at +8 dB at 20 Hz rolling to +0 dB at 80 Hz. But I'm not sure what types of target curves can be good for the high end. I have a related question to this about adjusting for hearing loss that I'll post separately after this message to expand on this more.

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...into that set and set the lowest breakpoint one octave below your desired crossover frequency.
How do you determine what value is one octave below a given frequency?

Quote:
Move the "curtain" to the left (or edit your target curve file and set LOWLIMITHZ to 10), add another breakpoint below and drag it down. The resulting curve should look similar to the blue curve in the response graph above.
Do the same for your sub, i.e. set the highest breakpoint one octave above your desired crossover frequency. Move the curtain to the right (or edit HIGHLIMITHZ in your target curve file), add another breakpoint above and drag it down. The resulting curve should look similar to the red curve in the response graph above...
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post #14795 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Also curious what you think of my measurements in this post Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs if you have the time. Thanks.






Here are my quick impressions:

The frequency response seems to drop off the shelf above 8Khz. What is going on with your high frequencies? Are you applying EQ up there? The average level of the signal above 100Hz is 65-70dB. The curve rises to 90dB at 20Hz. I have heard of house curves, but this seems to be quite heavy in the bass. Surprisingly, the waterfall shows pretty good control of the bass resonance--what bass treatments are you using? With the aggressive bass boost, I expected more ringing, but the absence of ringing suggests that the bass probably sounds pretty tight.

On the ETC, place the cursor at the -20dB mark. Any ETC spikes that extend above the cursor represent a level of reflections that are likely affecting the quality of your audio in the specular region. The ETC shows some serious reflections going on in your listening room, and should be a primary focus of improvement activities. For comparison, here is an ETC showing better reflection control:

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post #14796 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 05:46 AM
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Making a target curve to adjust for hearing loss

Is it possible (or worthwhile) to make a target curve that can help compensate for hearing loss at high frequencies? I did some Googling around and surprisingly I didn't come across much if anything about creating a target curve for older ears.

My hearing has never been that great to begin with. As I've gotten older its gotten considerably worse. I can certainly still appreciate music and know what sounds good to me and what doesn't. When I go into a HT room that has been over-deadened, I can immediately hear that (and others with good hearing will confirm its not just my imagination). That said I am sure there are many fine nuances in music that I am not hearing. For example kids will hear frequencies and noises that I can't hear no matter how hard I try and how isolated the sound is.

So with this in mind, I'm wondering - its it possible to set a target curve design specifically for "older ears" that I could use when I'm the only one in the theater (such as in an 88A preset)? I suppose this would involve boosting the upper frequencies. Starting around what point, and going up by how much? I wonder how much this could help and if this is even practical? I'm sure there are some high frequencies that I couldn't hear (that younger folks can) no matter how loud it was. But perhaps there is a range that could be boosted that would be useful?

I'm thinking maybe I could do some sort of "hearing test" in my theater. Like use REW to play back tones at a low level of increasing frequency, and find the point where it becomes noticeably lower. Then see how many dB I have to boost it to hear it at the same level. Then keep going higher and rinse repeat, until I got to a point where increasing the dB any reasonable amount (+5 dB, +10 dB?) at a certain frequency range made no difference and stop there knowing that no matter how reasonably I boosted that frequency it didn't help.

I just did a quick test online, playing tones at certain frequencies using my cheap speakers while sitting at my computer. At a moderate listening level I could hear 8 kHz just fine. I could also hear 10 kHz a bit quieter. For 12 kHz I had to turn the volume up some, up more to hear 14 kHz and up again to hear 15 kHz. At 16 kHz and above I couldn't hear even at max volume.

With this in mind, could it work to create a target curve that boosted these upper frequencies starting at say 11 kHz? I'd use it only when listening alone, since otherwise the boost would likely sound terrible to someone with good hearing.

I know you have to be careful not to apply too much boost (or any much beyond a small amount, really) to the low end / sub frequencies. But do you have to worry about clipping of speaker damage boosting frequencies in these upper levels?

Thanks!
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post #14797 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Is it possible (or worthwhile) to make a target curve that can help compensate for hearing loss at high frequencies? I did some Googling around and surprisingly I didn't come across much if anything about creating a target curve for older ears.

My hearing has never been that great to begin with. As I've gotten older its gotten considerably worse. I can certainly still appreciate music and know what sounds good to me and what doesn't. When I go into a HT room that has been over-deadened, I can immediately hear that (and others with good hearing will confirm its not just my imagination). That said I am sure there are many fine nuances in music that I am not hearing. For example kids will hear frequencies and noises that I can't hear no matter how hard I try and how isolated the sound is.

So with this in mind, I'm wondering - its it possible to set a target curve design specifically for "older ears" that I could use when I'm the only one in the theater (such as in an 88A preset)? I suppose this would involve boosting the upper frequencies. Starting around what point, and going up by how much? I wonder how much this could help and if this is even practical? I'm sure there are some high frequencies that I couldn't hear (that younger folks can) no matter how loud it was. But perhaps there is a range that could be boosted that would be useful?

I'm thinking maybe I could do some sort of "hearing test" in my theater. Like use REW to play back tones at a low level of increasing frequency, and find the point where it becomes noticeably lower. Then see how many dB I have to boost it to hear it at the same level. Then keep going higher and rinse repeat, until I got to a point where increasing the dB any reasonable amount (+5 dB, +10 dB?) at a certain frequency range made no difference and stop there knowing that no matter how reasonably I boosted that frequency it didn't help.

I just did a quick test online, playing tones at certain frequencies using my cheap speakers while sitting at my computer. At a moderate listening level I could hear 8 kHz just fine. I could also hear 10 kHz a bit quieter. For 12 kHz I had to turn the volume up some, up more to hear 14 kHz and up again to hear 15 kHz. At 16 kHz and above I couldn't hear even at max volume.

With this in mind, could it work to create a target curve that boosted these upper frequencies starting at say 11 kHz? I'd use it only when listening alone, since otherwise the boost would likely sound terrible to someone with good hearing.

I know you have to be careful not to apply too much boost (or any much beyond a small amount, really) to the low end / sub frequencies. But do you have to worry about clipping of speaker damage boosting frequencies in these upper levels?

Thanks!
As I mentioned in my earlier post, your high frequencies are significantly attenuated now, based on the REW measurement. How much of the missing high frequencies is a result of your hearing loss, and how much is due to what seems to be a severe roll-off in your tweeters?

If you had something like the 88A, you could certainly design a HF boost, and then test to see whether your ears can tell a difference. I have experimented with adjusting the HF curve, and have not been able to hear much of a difference, even though I can hear test tones up to 14Khz or slightly higher.
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post #14798 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 07:00 AM
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I'd be worried about the distortion:


Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #14799 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
As I mentioned in my earlier post, your high frequencies are significantly attenuated now, based on the REW measurement.
Measurement file indicates it was made with an RS meter, should ignore everything above a few kHz. Also seems to be clipping somewhere in the measurement chain causing very high odd order harmonic distortion (meter range set too low, perhaps).
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post #14800 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 10:11 AM
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Measurement file indicates it was made with an RS meter, should ignore everything above a few kHz. Also seems to be clipping somewhere in the measurement chain causing very high odd order harmonic distortion (meter range set too low, perhaps).
Interesting, John. I didn't catch that, but now I see you are correct.

@lovingdvd : I don't recall, did you disclose that the measurements were taken with an RS SPL? Don't you have a proper microphone? If not, have you considered getting one?
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post #14801 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post






Here are my quick impressions:

The frequency response seems to drop off the shelf above 8Khz. What is going on with your high frequencies? Are you applying EQ up there? The average level of the signal above 100Hz is 65-70dB. The curve rises to 90dB at 20Hz. I have heard of house curves, but this seems to be quite heavy in the bass. Surprisingly, the waterfall shows pretty good control of the bass resonance--what bass treatments are you using? With the aggressive bass boost, I expected more ringing, but the absence of ringing suggests that the bass probably sounds pretty tight.
The speaker (Pinnacle Gold Reference tower, 15+ years old) is inside a closed cabinet (and not designed to be) with FR701 speaker cloth on the front face of the cabinet door and no grill on speaker. The tweeter is only about 3 inches from the fabric and has clear line of sight through the fabric to the MLP. That said, any dispersion from the tweeter wider than about 50 degrees is likely bouncing all over the place inside that cabinet.

Yes bass does sound very good and tight. There is zero bass trapping and zero treatments of any kind. Ceiling, walls and back wall are painted drywall. Room is open on one side which runs far into another room. Sub is about 7 feet from MLP. I am using a BDF with filters to tame large peaks in sub FR. Nothing in the BDF for high frequency EQ. However YPAO (I calibrated with it on years ago but looking at the display it may not be engaged for some reason) may be engaged which could be doing something with the upper FR.

Here's a link to an updated MDAT file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...SVk&authuser=0 . This includes a near-field measurement of just the speaker itself, no sub, taken at 0 degrees from about one foot with the speaker pulled so its front face is outside the cabinet. This may be a good baseline for how the speaker itself performs. The sub was off during this measurement.

In case it matters, I should mention something a bit odd at REW setup... After placing my mic I turned the AVR up so that the SPL was 75 dB and calibrated the REW SPL tool to match. When I ran the first measurement it said I was over the headroom limit by about 5 dB (which I've never seen it do before). So I turned the AVR down to -10 dB (it was close to 0 dB), recalibrated the REW SPL meter, and ran the measurements and this time it was good by about 7 dB when it shows the headroom at the end.

Quote:
On the ETC, place the cursor at the -20dB mark. Any ETC spikes that extend above the cursor represent a level of reflections that are likely affecting the quality of your audio in the specular region. The ETC shows some serious reflections going on in your listening room, and should be a primary focus of improvement activities. For comparison, here is an ETC showing better reflection control:
Thanks. Yes I'm not surprised given no treatments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
As I mentioned in my earlier post, your high frequencies are significantly attenuated now, based on the REW measurement. How much of the missing high frequencies is a result of your hearing loss, and how much is due to what seems to be a severe roll-off in your tweeters?

If you had something like the 88A, you could certainly design a HF boost, and then test to see whether your ears can tell a difference. I have experimented with adjusting the HF curve, and have not been able to hear much of a difference, even though I can hear test tones up to 14Khz or slightly higher.
[/quote]

Yes I can see the roll off of the high FR in the measurement. I think it is likely the result of having the speaker situated in the cabinet as mentioned above. Soon I'll try rerunning this but with the cabinet open and speaker pulled so that its front face is fully out of the cabinet, and see how it compares.

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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'd be worried about the distortion:

[/quote]

Yes, I see what you mean! Yikes. Once again I think the cabinet is playing a big role here. See response to Jerry in this post. Would that make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post
Measurement file indicates it was made with an RS meter, should ignore everything above a few kHz. Also seems to be clipping somewhere in the measurement chain causing very high odd order harmonic distortion (meter range set too low, perhaps).
Indeed it is an old-school RS analog meter. I will be getting a UMIK-1 shortly. In this case I don't think its the meter itself, because you can see the distortion is significantly better (just about gone?) in the new data file (link posted in this reply just above) when taken near-field.

I'm in the process of designing a dedicated theater room and will hopefully start construction quite soon. At that point this room will be completely redone, the cabinets with the speakers will be gone, and I'll have an engineered baffle wall with acoustically transparent screen, entirely different set of speakers (KEF) in an Atmos 7.1.4 setup, and professional help for acoustically treating the room. So I am not too concerned about the current situation now or fixing it - mainly trying to assess and understand what I am hearing and how good or bad things are so I make sure to have a plan to greatly improve in the new redesign (aka no big no-no with speakers in a cabinet etc).

I do think the base response I have right now sounds fantastic. Hopefully it'll be this good or better in the new room, which will have a few challenges such as sitting in the middle of the room (this cannot be helped in the redesign) but will try and make up for it with multiple subs and balancing subs including one possibly in the riser (floor) right behind the MLP.
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post #14802 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Indeed it is an old-school RS analog meter. I will be getting a UMIK-1 shortly. In this case I don't think its the meter itself, because you can see the distortion is significantly better (just about gone?) in the new data file (link posted in this reply just above) when taken near-field.
No, the distortion is even worse in that measurement. What range do you have the meter set to? Does the meter needle stay below the upper end stop throughout the measurement?
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post #14803 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 11:25 AM
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No, the distortion is even worse in that measurement. What range do you have the meter set to? Does the meter needle stay below the upper end stop throughout the measurement?
No, from what I remember the RS meter is pinned to the far right during most of the measurement. IIRC I had its dial set to 70, slow, C weighted. Sounds like I need to choose different settings? Perhaps that explains why I had that headroom error before turning down the AVR? What type of change would you suggest on the RS meter - I can try it in a little while and post the updated results. I also will be getting a UMIK-1 soon.
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post #14804 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 11:39 AM
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Set the meter so that it never quite reaches the end stop during the measurement. On the 70 dB range you would need to make sure the level never exceeded about 76 dB throughout the measurement, better using the 80 dB range or even 90 dB if it still maxes out.
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post #14805 of 14814 Old 05-24-2015, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post
No, the distortion is even worse in that measurement...
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'd be worried about the distortion.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The frequency response seems to drop off the shelf above 8Khz. What is going on with your high frequencies?...
Thanks guys. Here are updated measures with the RS meter set to 80. Unlike the previous measures this one was done without pinning the meter: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...Ums&authuser=0

Is the distortion any better with these measure (since possibly the pinning of the RS meter led to bad readings)?

John brings up a good question. What is up with my drop off about 9 kHz? The near-field measurement in the previous data file (where it shows no roll off) I think proves that its not the speaker and perhaps. So then it must be the room? There's only drywall on the walls and ceiling - no treatments. And a couch and berber carpet. Nothing much to absorb the high frequencies.

Also does my subwoofer show a large amount of distortion? I think something may be wrong with it. I noticed during the sweeps that it was fluttering quite a bit. Afterward I used the signal generator to send sine waves to it at set frequencies like 20 Hz, 25 Hz, 30 Hz. The sub is really fluttering - like when a kid sticks out there tongue and blows air out. I gentle rested my fingers on the woofer and indeed the woofer is flapping quite a lot. I never remember this type of fluttering. I bypassed the BFD and it still does the same thing. When I listen to music or movies the bass sounds tight and normal. But I don't recall this fluttering ever before and would have noticed it. What might this suggest is going on?
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post #14806 of 14814 Old 05-25-2015, 02:23 AM
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I would suggest to wait for your UMIK-1 to arrive. There's just too much room for error with the Radio Shack SPL meter.

Markus

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post #14807 of 14814 Old 05-25-2015, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Thanks guys. Here are updated measures with the RS meter set to 80. Unlike the previous measures this one was done without pinning the meter: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...Ums&authuser=0

Is the distortion any better with these measure (since possibly the pinning of the RS meter led to bad readings)?
Yes, much, much better for the measurements without the sub. Measurements with the sub look like they are still clipping, but that isn't surprising as your sub level is far higher than the speaker. With the sub level so high you would need the meter range another 20 dB higher or to turn down the measurement signal by 20 dB to get a clean measurement.
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^
I would suggest to wait for your UMIK-1 to arrive. There's just too much room for error with the Radio Shack SPL meter.
Thanks. I should have it within the next day or two and will repeat the tests then.

Am I correct that in addition to the UMIK-1 I will still need a SPL meter, so that I can calibrate REW's SPL to the real level in the room? If so, is my old school (15 year old) RS analog meter still fine for that, or should I get a new one. Maybe I should get a new one anyway. Are the digital ones any good? Recommendations for what to replace it with?

Thanks.
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A UMIK-1 comes already level calibrated. No need for a additional SPL meter. You might want to take a peek in Jerry's guide which answers questions like this

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Thanks. I should have it within the next day or two and will repeat the tests then.

Am I correct that in addition to the UMIK-1 I will still need a SPL meter, so that I can calibrate REW's SPL to the real level in the room? If so, is my old school (15 year old) RS analog meter still fine for that, or should I get a new one. Maybe I should get a new one anyway. Are the digital ones any good? Recommendations for what to replace it with?

Thanks.
As Markus says, the UMIK-1 does not need to be calibrated with an external SPL, all explained in the guide. I have one of the original RS SPL meters as well, and it must be 20 years old. It is still as good as the day I bought it, and continues to be a very valuable tool, although I only use it for quick-and-dirty measurements these days. I must say, it has been a very durable and reliable piece of gear.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Thanks. I should have it within the next day or two and will repeat the tests then.

Am I correct that in addition to the UMIK-1 I will still need a SPL meter, so that I can calibrate REW's SPL to the real level in the room? If so, is my old school (15 year old) RS analog meter still fine for that, or should I get a new one. Maybe I should get a new one anyway. Are the digital ones any good? Recommendations for what to replace it with?

Thanks.
Keep the old analog meter you have...I personally hate the digital ones, too hard to get a reading IME.

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Problem with HDMI output of test tones

I'm trying to get REW working with HDMI output on my laptop for the first time. I went through the excellent guide and everything I was doing was available on my PC and I set everything exactly as described.

I have my HDMI going into HDMI 3 on my AVR and can hear Windows playing through it, such as the start up Windows tune. Also when I press the Test button under HDMI Properties and DVD 48000 Hz set for Playback I here the tones thru the speaker.

When I start REW I get the exception quoted below.

I also notice that unlike in the guide, when I am on the "Soundcard" tab the dropdown under "Output" does not show any HDMI options. I only get "Headphones/Speakers 1" and "Headphones/Speakers 2". Whereas the guide shows HDMI options. In the HDMI ASIO 4 all driver utility it shows my HDMI connection as active.

When I go to "Check levels" and choose speakers (or sub) there is no test tone heard through the speakers. I also plugged into my headphone jack just to check that and nothing out of their either.

Does anyone know what may be wrong and how I can troubleshoot this further? I am running REW 5.11 on Windows 7 x64 on an old laptop with JRE 1.8.0_45 32 bit. Thanks in advance.

Quote:
Input device error


Message:
javax.sound.sampled.LineUnavailableException: Primary Sound Capture Driver does not have any lines supporting PCM_SIGNED 48000.0 Hz, 16 bit, stereo, 4 bytes/frame, little-endian
Level:
SEVERE
Stack Trace:
Primary Sound Capture Driver does not have any lines supporting PCM_SIGNED 48000.0 Hz, 16 bit, stereo, 4 bytes/frame, little-endian
roomeqwizard.CD.U(Unknown Source)
roomeqwizard.cC$4.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
javax.swing.JComboBox.fireActionEvent(Unknown Source)
javax.swing.JComboBox.setSelectedItem(Unknown Source)
roomeqwizard.CD.A(Unknown Source)
roomeqwizard.CD.C(Unknown Source)
roomeqwizard.CD$1.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
javax.swing.Timer.fireActionPerformed(Unknown Source)
javax.swing.Timer$DoPostEvent.run(Unknown Source)
java.awt.event.InvocationEvent.dispatch(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventQueue.access$500(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventQueue$3.run(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventQueue$3.run(Unknown Source)
java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
java.security.ProtectionDomain$1.doIntersectionPri vilege(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilter s(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(U nknown Source)
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarch y(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)
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post #14813 of 14814 Unread Yesterday, 10:09 PM
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I'm not sure if this is your problem, but I had to uninstall my sound card to get my HDMI output options to show up in that box.
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