Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 495 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14821 of 14850 Old Yesterday, 01:33 PM
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I'm using HDMI output from my laptop to the AVR for the test tones. My laptop only supports the "stereo" configuration and in the Output dropdown on the Soundcard tab my only options are HDMI #1 and HDMI #2 , which work as left/right speakers as expected.

In this scenario, is it possible to measure the subwoofer only, without any sound going to the right or left speaker? Or do I have to disconnect the front speakers if I want sub only, like I'd have to do with a non-HDMI output config?
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post #14822 of 14850 Old Yesterday, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I'm using HDMI output from my laptop to the AVR for the test tones. My laptop only supports the "stereo" configuration and in the Output dropdown on the Soundcard tab my only options are HDMI #1 and HDMI #2 , which work as left/right speakers as expected.

In this scenario, is it possible to measure the subwoofer only, without any sound going to the right or left speaker? Or do I have to disconnect the front speakers if I want sub only, like I'd have to do with a non-HDMI output config?
You will need to disconnect the front speakers to get a sub-only measurement. That's where running an external amp comes in handy--it is easier to turn off the amp, rather than unplugging the speakers.
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post #14823 of 14850 Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by owlvn View Post
Below is the RTA of my room, does it looks normal to you? When I opened the SPL meter, it constantly read above 62dbs with just the fans of my projector and the Inuke running.
I have this issue also, but with the UMM-6 USB mic. My AC, refrigerator, and dvr all off. My noise floor seems to be around 60-62db. Interested to see what your issue might be.
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post #14824 of 14850 Old Yesterday, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by owlvn View Post
Jerry,

I set my front speakers to large and turned off Audyssey, but somehow bass mgmt still kicked in as you can see below. The frequency response looks really bad compared to my earlier cheapo speakers (HTIB type). Any advice?



In addition, during the measurement I hear strange noise from my left speaker at high frequency, which scared me. It never happened before with any other speakers, so my thought is would it be something wrong with my mic sensitivity? I am using the Umik-1 calibrated by Spectrum Labs with sensitivity factor downloaded and added to the cal file.

Below is the RTA of my room, does it looks normal to you? When I opened the SPL meter, it constantly read above 62dbs with just the fans of my projector and the Inuke running.

If you are sending the REW test signal to HDMI1 and/or HDMI2 and the front speakers are set to Large, you should not be getting a signal from the subs. Run the sweep again and feel the sub's cone--is it indeed moving? As for the quality of the measurement, I suspect the new speakers are placed in a different spot than the HTIB speakers, which may account for what looks worse. Experiment with different speaker placements. And BTW, I would measure speakers + subs.

The strange noise coming from the speaker cannot have anything to do with the microphone--a mic doesn't generate any sound.

And finally, a typical noise level should be in the 40-50dB range. A reading above 60dB would be a pretty noisy room, IMO. Is there a reason to have the projector running while taking measurements? I am not familiar with the iNuke. Does it generate noise, like with cooling fans?

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post #14825 of 14850 Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM
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Does it generate noise, like with cooling fans?
Indeed, the fans of the iNukes are (in)famous for noise. Threads about replacing the fans abound. But that still wouldn't get a room to 60dB.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Is there a way in REW to plot the delta in FR between two different measures? For example, I can take measure 1 and measure 2 and it will plot the FR of both together. That's useful. But for one specific purpose I'm mot interested in seeing a graph of the delta. Like with 0 dB at the middle of the Y axis, and dBs increasing going up the Y axis and decreasing going down the Y axis, with the Hz along the X axis. And having the plot show me the difference between the two. So if at 50 Hz measure 1 was 4 dB more than measure 2, then at the X axis at 50 Hz the value plotted there would be 4 dB. Is this possible?

In case you are wondering, I am measuring the acoustical transparency and properties of different AT screens. I want to have a Baseline measure which is the speaker without any screen in front of it. Then do measures for each screen. Then to interpret the results, I don't care so much about what the actual absolute dB levels are, but rather what the delta is between that measure and the baseline measure, so I can most easily judge the affect of the screen on the measurement. The way I'd have to do this now is to eyeball the FR and put the cursor over places where they FR levels look wider and then read them "oh ok this is 75 db baseline vs 72 dB for screen one, so that's -3 dB at X Hz". That works but a much more intuitive view of the data would be a plot with the deltas.

Thanks!
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post #14827 of 14850 Old Yesterday, 11:32 PM
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Import a Dirac impulse and divide it by the graph you want to be your baseline (All SPL > Control > Trace Arithmetic). Now multiply this new curve with each measurement.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole

Last edited by markus767; Today at 06:56 AM.
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post #14828 of 14850 Old Today, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Import a Dirac impulse and divide it by the graph you want to be your baseline (All SPL > Control > Trace Arithmetic). Now multiply this new curve with each measurement.
Is this in response to my question above, about how to graph the delta in FR between measurements? If so, sorry to be dense but I am not following any of that. You mention Dirac, however I'm not using that - yet. Just REW measurements. Didn't know what you mean about dividing by a graph, and don't see any such Control->Trace Arithmetic in REW. So either your response was for someone else or I am totally missing the boat. Can you please elaborate? Thanks.
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Yes, I was responding to your post, that's why there's a ^

I'm not talking about Dirac Live but about a Dirac impulse. Dirac Research just named their company after physicist Paul Dirac - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function

I've uploaded such an impulse for you at
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...16_44_mono.wav

This is where you'll find the trace arithmetic controls:

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post #14830 of 14850 Old Today, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
If so, sorry to be dense but I am not following any of that.
Don't feel badly, I spend half my time here being amazed at the knowledge base and willingness to share/teach and the other half having no idea what's going on.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #14831 of 14850 Old Today, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Yes, I was responding to your post, that's why there's a ^

I'm not talking about Dirac Live but about a Dirac impulse. Dirac Research just named their company after physicist Paul Dirac - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function

I've uploaded such an impulse for you at
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...16_44_mono.wav

This is where you'll find the trace arithmetic controls:
Thanks. This looks like exactly what I was looking for. However the results are not as expected. Maybe I am doing something wrong?

I have the "Measurement Offset" set to my baseline. Under Trace Arithmetic I have "A" set to my baseline, and "B" set to the measure I want to compare it to. I also chose "A/B".

When I generate the graph, it looks right for the middle part of the range - say about 30 Hz to 6 kHz. But values outside of that range are way off.

Example: At 143 Hz baseline is 76.2 dB, measure 2 is 76.1 dB, and plot of "A over B" is 0.1 dB. Perfect! But now lets look at 10 kHz: baseline is 77.9 dB, measure 2 is 77.7 dB, but "A over B" is 4.6 dB, whereas I am expecting 0.2 dB. I also tried "A minus B". This provides even stranger results. Example at 10 kHz it says A-B is 52.9 dB. How could that even be?

Thanks again.
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post #14832 of 14850 Old Today, 08:42 AM
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Looks like you're not following the procedure I've outlined. Is the .mdat you're working with available for download?

Markus

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Looks like you're not following the procedure I've outlined. Is the .mdat you're working with available for download?
Well, that's entirely possible. Please get the test file from here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...ek0&authuser=0 . Notice in particular how starting at 10 kHz the A over B plot starts rising steadily, even those the delta of those measurements really is only 0.1 - 0. 5 dB not not progressively increasing like the A over B plot suggests. Thanks again for the help.
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post #14834 of 14850 Old Today, 09:16 AM
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Well, if I follow my own instructions in post 14827 I get this



Material 1 is pretty nice - Spandex?
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Well, if I follow my own instructions in post 14827 I get this
Attached is a screenshot that hopefully will tell you what I am doing wrong...? I think I am following your instructions, but really am not sure. Does this give you any ideas what steps I missed or got wrong?

Notice how at the marked 7.65 kHz level the dB difference between the baseline and material 1 is 0.2 dB yet the A over B plot says 10.9 dB in the same spot.
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Did you import the Dirac impulse?

Markus

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^
Did you import the Dirac impulse?
Oh, I thought that was just an example measurement. Sorry about that. OK so I just imported it using File->Import Impulse Response. I see that now shown in the graph as a straight line. But not sure what to do with it from there to fix the issue. Nothing changed after I imported it. I tried changing the Measurement Offset to be that instead of "Baseline" and generated again, but no change in the graphs.
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"Import a Dirac impulse and divide it by the graph you want to be your baseline (All SPL > Control > Trace Arithmetic). Now multiply this new curve with each measurement."

Markus

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
"Import a Dirac impulse and divide it by the graph you want to be your baseline (All SPL > Control > Trace Arithmetic). Now multiply this new curve with each measurement."
Thanks. I think I am now closer, but the net results are not what I was hoping to get. So either I am still not doing something right, or I am and its designed to do something different.

Here's what I did:
- I set the measurement offset to the mono impulse I imported. Was that right to do?
- I then generated a measure I labeled "Delta" by using using the impulse as A and the Baseline as B and using A/B.
- I then generated a measure labeled "Delta for Material 1" by using Delta as A and Material 1 for B, and choosing A*B.

Was that all right?

What I get is a line that tracks the delta, but at some scale other than 0 as being "equal". So I can glance at the line and see where they diverge, but judging the absolute value of the divergence in terms of dB difference requires eyeballing and a little basic mental subtraction.

What I am hoping to get instead is a line plotted at 0, where 0 means Baseline and Material 1 are identical in their dB at that Hz. And plotted at -2 if Material 1 is lower than Baseline by 2 dB at that Hz. I noticed in your example graph you uploaded that its not that way either. Does this make sense? Achievable?
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Not sure what the problem is. You can shift curves by any amount ("Add offset to data"). You can also measure offsets very exactly using the cursor. See REW help.

Markus

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Not sure what the problem is. You can shift curves by any amount ("Add offset to data"). You can also measure offsets very exactly using the cursor. See REW help.
Thanks. Please see attached graph. The line I care about is the green one. Take for instance where the cursor is at 497 Hz. Baseline is 73.7 dB, Material 1 is 70.7 dB. So what I'd like to see is a plot for that point at -3 dB, since Material 1 is 3 dB lower than the baseline there. A Times B shows as 80.6 dB, which compared to the mono reference at 83.5 dB is right (close enough). But how do I get the green line to plot at -3 dB instead of 80.6 dB? When I use the "Add Offset To Data" button and try putting in values such as -83.5 dB it just moves the line for the mono impulse measurement down, while the green line stays the same.

If you see a simple solution to this please let me know. Otherwise please do not spend any more time on it - I appreciate the help and this gets me 95% of the way to where I wanted to be.
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"Add offset to data" can be applied to any graph, but you need to select it

By the way, in the graph you just posted, where's the A/B data?

Markus

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
"Add offset to data" can be applied to any graph, but you need to select it

By the way, in the graph you just posted, where's the A/B data?
The A/B data is the purple and yellow lines, or if you're referring to the net result that's the green line. Thanks so much for all the help. I would have never of figured this out on my own! Well, I thought I had it figured out but you asking me where the A/B data is makes me wonder... ?
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@markus767 Thanks again for the recommendation for the mic stand / boom from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s00) . It came a few days ago.

However my UMIK-1 mic just came and I was surprised to see that the screw on the end of the mic stand from Amazon is too large to fit inside the threads of the clip that came with the UMIK-1. The mic does screw into the miniture mic stand that came with the unit. Was I suppose to buy some sort of adapter or clip to use with this stand/boom and the UMIK-1?
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
The A/B data is the purple and yellow lines, or if you're referring to the net result that's the green line. Thanks so much for all the help. I would have never of figured this out on my own! Well, I thought I had it figured out but you asking me where the A/B data is makes me wonder... ?
You're still doing it wrong.

1. Open your measurements
2. Import the Dirac impulse
3. Create in inverse of measurement "1: Baseline" by calculating "Dirac impulse" / "1: Baseline"
4. Now use the inverse for all following calculations "inverse" * "1: Baseline", "inverse" * "2: Solid vinyl", etc.

Markus

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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
@markus767 Thanks again for the recommendation for the mic stand / boom from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s00) . It came a few days ago.

However my UMIK-1 mic just came and I was surprised to see that the screw on the end of the mic stand from Amazon is too large to fit inside the threads of the clip that came with the UMIK-1. The mic does screw into the miniture mic stand that came with the unit. Was I suppose to buy some sort of adapter or clip to use with this stand/boom and the UMIK-1?
Pictures?

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post #14847 of 14850 Unread Today, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Pictures?
I'm not with the stand right now to take pictures. I just checked the Amazon listing for the stand (linked to above) and it says it has 5/8-27 threads. I'm not sure what the thread size needed for the UMIK-1 is, but its definitely smaller. I doesn't come close to fitting on the boom. I'm confused because I thought this was the same mic/boom stand that you and others were using? Either that or it was just a general example?

Do you (or anyone) know of a specific mic/book they can recommend that fits the UMIK-1?


Thanks.
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post #14848 of 14850 Unread Today, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You're still doing it wrong.

1. Open your measurements
2. Import the Dirac impulse
3. Create in inverse of measurement "1: Baseline" by calculating "Dirac impulse" / "1: Baseline"
4. Now use the inverse for all following calculations "inverse" * "1: Baseline", "inverse" * "2: Solid vinyl", etc.
OK thanks I will double check what I am doing tonight and report back.
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post #14849 of 14850 Unread Today, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I'm not with the stand right now to take pictures. I just checked the Amazon listing for the stand (linked to above) and it says it has 5/8-27 threads. I'm not sure what the thread size needed for the UMIK-1 is, but its definitely smaller. I doesn't come close to fitting on the boom. I'm confused because I thought this was the same mic/boom stand that you and others were using? Either that or it was just a general example?

Do you (or anyone) know of a specific mic/book they can recommend that fits the UMIK-1?


Thanks.
You might just need to remove the "golden" thread adapter in the mic clamp.

Markus

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post #14850 of 14850 Unread Today, 12:28 PM
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You might just need to remove the "golden" thread adapter in the mic clamp.
Good call. Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing a slot in the golden thread which I'm assuming is designed for a screwdriver to be able to remove it. I'll give it a try tonight. Looking forward to finally having a real mic for measurements instead of the RS meter.
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