Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 496 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14851 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by gh32 View Post
I have this issue also, but with the UMM-6 USB mic. My AC, refrigerator, and dvr all off. My noise floor seems to be around 60-62db. Interested to see what your issue might be.
With my UMIK-1 my noise floor was reading in the low 60s which surprised me. Then I noticed my AC was running. Once I shut that off it was in the mid 40s give or take. And that is with the relatively loud set top box.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

The frequency response seems to drop off the shelf above 8Khz. What is going on with your high frequencies? Are you applying EQ up there? The average level of the signal above 100Hz is 65-70dB. The curve rises to 90dB at 20Hz. I have heard of house curves, but this seems to be quite heavy in the bass. Surprisingly, the waterfall shows pretty good control of the bass resonance--what bass treatments are you using? With the aggressive bass boost, I expected more ringing, but the absence of ringing suggests that the bass probably sounds pretty tight.
...
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Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post
Measurement file indicates it was made with an RS meter, should ignore everything above a few kHz. Also seems to be clipping somewhere in the measurement chain causing very high odd order harmonic distortion (meter range set too low, perhaps).
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
I would suggest to wait for your UMIK-1 to arrive. There's just too much room for error with the Radio Shack SPL meter.
Thanks guys. My UMIK-1 came last night. I was glad to see that the high frequencies did not roll off at all like what was measured when I used the RS meter. So while the RS meter did a decent job reading the high end from near field, it was way low when reading it from 16 ft. across the room at the MLP. Good call to ignore it and wait for the UMIK-1.

As Jerry pointed out, I have an issue with the sub running way to hot. I'm not sure when this happened. Its been years since I last calibrated with REW and my BFD. And I know when I finished with that it was all dialed in nicely. Now it is obvious that something changed. The gain knob on the sub is in a place where it would be really hard for someone to have turned it or bumped into it, so not sure how it got this way.

Anyway this weekend I'm going to redo the EQ. I'll use YPAO to start with and let it do its thing. Then I'll EQ the sub. Hopefully REW will do all the heavy lifting as far as its recommended filters. I'll post an updated set of measures once completed.
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post #14852 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 02:19 PM
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I'd do the sub first, then YPAO. It works better for me that way with MCACC, which also doesn't eq subs, but will set the level and distance.

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post #14853 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 02:36 PM
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I'd do the sub first, then YPAO. It works better for me that way with MCACC, which also doesn't eq subs, but will set the level and distance.
Thanks. I have the Yamaha RX-V1800. From what I recall, it does make some changes that could affect the subwoofer response. I can't quite remember, but it may EQ down as low as 100 Hz? My thought is that I'd rather have it EQ the whole system as much as it can, then I can come and fix the bass with REW and BFD. At least that way when I finish I know what the result is. If I was to do the sub EQ first and then YPAO, it could (I suppose?) make a chance that then messes up my BFD eq (I EQ to sub + L/R, so if YPAO changes even L+R it could throw off the overall FR). What do you think? Have you experimented with doing it both ways (one first, then the other)? How confident are you that YPAO after the fact will not mess up the sub? Thanks!
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post #14854 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 02:48 PM
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I'm confident that, if MCACC "messes up" my subs, I can correct it. I've never used YPAO, so I defer to your experience.
I do the subs without mains, so I know where I'm starting from. Then adjust/correct/fiddle afterwards.
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post #14855 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 02:49 PM
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What is a good general rule of thumb for determining where to set the subwoofer gain control (on the sub itself)? The REW User Guide talks about using -30 dB and setting the volume control on the AVR (or within REW) so that the SPL is around 75 dB. However, depending on where my gain control is on the sub, I can reach 75 dB with the sub with the AVR master volume set pretty low or pretty high. Basically I'm wondering what a good neutral starting point is.

I like a house curve of +8 at 20 dB to +0 at 80 dB. I know how to load this into REW. But do I then need to set my starting SPL dB so that the sub is producing 75+8 = 83 dB, and then the BFD will use filters to bring the house curve slope down into play?

Thanks.
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post #14856 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
What is a good general rule of thumb for determining where to set the subwoofer gain control (on the sub itself)? The REW User Guide talks about using -30 dB and setting the volume control on the AVR (or within REW) so that the SPL is around 75 dB. However, depending on where my gain control is on the sub, I can reach 75 dB with the sub with the AVR master volume set pretty low or pretty high. Basically I'm wondering what a good neutral starting point is.

I like a house curve of +8 at 20 dB to +0 at 80 dB. I know how to load this into REW. But do I then need to set my starting SPL dB so that the sub is producing 75+8 = 83 dB, and then the BFD will use filters to bring the house curve slope down into play?

Thanks.
Let's start from the final objective. After running room correction, all speakers should measure 75dB at the MLP. (This is before you turn up the sub trim/gain as per your preference).

Not being familiar with MCACC, I think that it does nothing for the sub channel. So I would start out with setting the sub gain so that it measures 75dB at the MLP. Run the room correction and then check all levels to ensure that they are the same. The final step would be to increase the sub level to establish your house curve.
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post #14857 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
What is a good general rule of thumb for determining where to set the subwoofer gain control (on the sub itself)? The REW User Guide talks about using -30 dB and setting the volume control on the AVR (or within REW) so that the SPL is around 75 dB. However, depending on where my gain control is on the sub, I can reach 75 dB with the sub with the AVR master volume set pretty low or pretty high. Basically I'm wondering what a good neutral starting point is.

I like a house curve of +8 at 20 dB to +0 at 80 dB. I know how to load this into REW. But do I then need to set my starting SPL dB so that the sub is producing 75+8 = 83 dB, and then the BFD will use filters to bring the house curve slope down into play?

Thanks.
Let's start from the final objective. After running room correction, all speakers should measure 75dB at the MLP. (This is before you turn up the sub trim/gain as per your preference).

Not being familiar with MCACC, I think that it does nothing for the sub channel. So I would start out with setting the sub gain so that it measures 75dB at the MLP. Run the room correction and then check all levels to ensure that they are the same. The final step would be to increase the sub level to establish your house curve.
Thanks. However doesn't REW need to take the house curve into account when creating filters and EQ work? The house curve is a slope. So I can't just turn up the gain afterward to achieve the house curve...?
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post #14858 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Thanks. However doesn't REW need to take the house curve into account when creating filters and EQ work? The house curve is a slope. So I can't just turn up the gain afterward to achieve the house curve...?
When you measure with REW, the curve reflects response anomalies caused by the room. The output level of the sub doesn't affect the shape of the response curve, it simply raises the curve up or down. When you use the REW EQ tool, a very important step is to set the level. So what I am saying is that the overall sub level should have no impact on the REW EQ filters.
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post #14859 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
When you measure with REW, the curve reflects response anomalies caused by the room. The output level of the sub doesn't affect the shape of the response curve, it simply raises the curve up or down. When you use the REW EQ tool, a very important step is to set the level. So what I am saying is that the overall sub level should have no impact on the REW EQ filters.
Yes I agree. I think we may be saying two different things. I'm imagining a perfectly flat FR from 20 Hz - 20 kHz (we can dream right? ). Now with a house curve of +8 dB at 20, fading to +0 dB at 80 Hz, think about what 20-80 Hz now looks like on that curve. If we tell REW to use that house curve, it needs to take that into account as it cuts frequencies to make that slope in the FR to match the house curve, yes? Or am I just totally off base here?
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post #14860 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 05:54 PM
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Has anyone compared the 90 degree calibration for the UMIK-1 that comes from the MiniDSP website (when you enter your serial number) to the 90 degree calibration files that you get from Cross-Spectrum Labs? How does the calibration done by MiniDSP compare to the way CSL does it?

I asked because I noticed the values in the two calibration files are quite different.

Here's two quick examples:

For 95.5 Hz:

95.51000000000001 0.64 0 (from the CSL calibration file)
95.552 -0.3178 (from the MiniDSP calibration file)


For 19.78 kHz:

19782.16 -8.16 0 (from the CSL calibration file)
19770.697 -6.1828 (from the MiniDSP calibration file)

Am I correct to assume that of the two the one from CSL should be more accurate (and if so, just how much more accurate)? The only obvious difference I see is that the MiniDSP file stops at 20 kHz and the CSL one goes to 25 kHz. But I'm assuming for REW and our calibration purposes there is little point in worrying about anything over 20 kHz. Certainly I know I can't hear of 15 kHz. I think most teenagers can't hear past 20 kHz.

Thanks!
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post #14861 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Now with a house curve of +8 dB at 20, fading to +0 dB at 80 Hz, think about what 20-80 Hz now looks like on that curve. If we tell REW to use that house curve, it needs to take that into account as it cuts frequencies to make that slope in the FR to match the house curve, yes? Or am I just totally off base here?
I do this, and it usually works (just change the slope to get what you want).
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post #14862 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 06:19 PM
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Yes I agree. I think we may be saying two different things. I'm imagining a perfectly flat FR from 20 Hz - 20 kHz (we can dream right? ). Now with a house curve of +8 dB at 20, fading to +0 dB at 80 Hz, think about what 20-80 Hz now looks like on that curve. If we tell REW to use that house curve, it needs to take that into account as it cuts frequencies to make that slope in the FR to match the house curve, yes? Or am I just totally off base here?
Well, you can do what you want. But in my case, I gain-match the subs so they play 75dB at the MLP, run the REW EQ tool, load the EQ filters into my MiniDSP 2x4, run the room calibration, and as a last step, apply a modest increase to the bass levels to achieve a house curve.
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post #14863 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Has anyone compared the 90 degree calibration for the UMIK-1 that comes from the MiniDSP website (when you enter your serial number) to the 90 degree calibration files that you get from Cross-Spectrum Labs? How does the calibration done by MiniDSP compare to the way CSL does it?

I asked because I noticed the values in the two calibration files are quite different.

Here's two quick examples:

For 95.5 Hz:

95.51000000000001 0.64 0 (from the CSL calibration file)
95.552 -0.3178 (from the MiniDSP calibration file)


For 19.78 kHz:

19782.16 -8.16 0 (from the CSL calibration file)
19770.697 -6.1828 (from the MiniDSP calibration file)

Am I correct to assume that of the two the one from CSL should be more accurate (and if so, just how much more accurate)? The only obvious difference I see is that the MiniDSP file stops at 20 kHz and the CSL one goes to 25 kHz. But I'm assuming for REW and our calibration purposes there is little point in worrying about anything over 20 kHz. Certainly I know I can't hear of 15 kHz. I think most teenagers can't hear past 20 kHz.

Thanks!
I looked at the two files, noticed that they seemed to be different, but never spent much time trying to figure out which was more accurate. I use the CSL 90-degree file.

If you wanted to run a test, do two REW sweeps, one with the MiniDSP cal file, and one with the CSL file. Compare the results. If they are reasonably close, who cares. If they are significantly different, then I might be worried.

Report the results of your test.
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post #14864 of 15407 Old 05-29-2015, 11:26 PM
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If you wanted to run a test, do two REW sweeps, one with the MiniDSP cal file, and one with the CSL file.
Or simply load the two calibration files into REW. File > Import Frequency Response

Markus

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Can't you let the guy play first before you give him homework?

Slave drivers, here, man.

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post #14866 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Thanks. I have the Yamaha RX-V1800. From what I recall, it does make some changes that could affect the subwoofer response. I can't quite remember, but it may EQ down as low as 100 Hz? My thought is that I'd rather have it EQ the whole system as much as it can, then I can come and fix the bass with REW and BFD. At least that way when I finish I know what the result is. If I was to do the sub EQ first and then YPAO, it could (I suppose?) make a chance that then messes up my BFD eq (I EQ to sub + L/R, so if YPAO changes even L+R it could throw off the overall FR). What do you think? Have you experimented with doing it both ways (one first, then the other)? How confident are you that YPAO after the fact will not mess up the sub? Thanks!
My two cents is to EQ portion of the whole freq spectrum doing the subs first, then have YPAO integrate that well with the rest of the speakers, and see if it adjust something else in low end.
If you first integrate the sub and speakers with YPAO and then effectively change the signal coming out of the subs with BFD you might "ruffle the edges" of what YPAO did with crossovers and blending with speakers.

You can always the measure afterwards how responses are with only BFD, only YPAO, and then both on and see what looks best.

Change is the only constant.

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post #14867 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I do this, and it usually works (just change the slope to get what you want).
Funny you should mention that. I don't remember those options being there years ago when I last used REW, so perhaps they are relatively new. I was looking at that last night and trying to decide if this is any different than using a house curve. So either this essentially does the same thing, effectively eliminating needing to use a house curve file (if it does do the same thing its more direct to set it in the Filters area instead of loading the house curve), or these things have different purposes. Anyone know?
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post #14868 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Well, you can do what you want. But in my case, I gain-match the subs so they play 75dB at the MLP, run the REW EQ tool, load the EQ filters into my MiniDSP 2x4, run the room calibration, and as a last step, apply a modest increase to the bass levels to achieve a house curve.
By gain match you mean that you get 75 dB on your SPL level when you use REW set to output the Check Levels to sub only and disconnect your fronts, and with your fronts set to produce 75 dB on the SPL without the sub when Check Levels is set to Use Main speakers?

Then you bump it at the end. I get that. But we may be saying two different things. What I like about a House Curve is that it is an uneven bump in the range. For example 20 Hz may be +6 dB fading to +0 dB at 80 Hz. If the sub is EQ'ed to be flat than turning the gain control in the end will just raise the entire sub level equally.
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post #14869 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I looked at the two files, noticed that they seemed to be different, but never spent much time trying to figure out which was more accurate. I use the CSL 90-degree file.

If you wanted to run a test, do two REW sweeps, one with the MiniDSP cal file, and one with the CSL file. Compare the results. If they are reasonably close, who cares. If they are significantly different, then I might be worried.

Report the results of your test.
Great idea. Though it would still be interesting to know which is technically more accurate. CSL reports what reference the mic is calibrated to. But I don't recall seeing this for MiniDSP. Anyone know?

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Or simply load the two calibration files into REW. File > Import Frequency Response
Interesting idea. Will try this too.
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post #14870 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:17 AM
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My two cents is to EQ portion of the whole freq spectrum doing the subs first, then have YPAO integrate that well with the rest of the speakers, and see if it adjust something else in low end.
If you first integrate the sub and speakers with YPAO and then effectively change the signal coming out of the subs with BFD you might "ruffle the edges" of what YPAO did with crossovers and blending with speakers.

You can always the measure afterwards how responses are with only BFD, only YPAO, and then both on and see what looks best.
I like the idea, thanks. So I'll EQ the sub. Then let YPAO do the rest. Then check to make sure it doesn't mess with my sub, and if it does, tweak from there.
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post #14871 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:27 AM
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So last night I gain matched my sub and fronts to 75 dB and calibrated what was a rather flat FR across the whole range, except for about 90 - 500 Hz running about 5 dB lower (not sure what's going on with that, will check into that today). But I was quite disappointed with the sound of the results. The bass, while it was present, was so minimal, boring, almost like the sub wasn't even on. Yes if you turn it off you'd notice a little hold from the missing bass, but man I felt something was missing.

I tried with the sub at +5 dB and it was better, but still not full enought. At +10 dB I felt like it was "present" and made a noticeable difference. My decay time is excellent (no ringing after about 300 ms across the whole range) so perhaps that is why I can run the sub so hot without it feeling overwhelming.

Anyway, I know we do things to taste around here, and what's wrong for one person is ideal for another. I get that. And that if I like the sub +10 dB then who cares just run it that way. But, I can't help but wonder why this is. It makes me curious to know if there's something about my sub or my room that makes me feel the need to run it at +10. Maybe I am technically making things worse and not listening to things how they are meant to be heard? I don't want to do that. That said, at +10 with music it certainly is not thumpy or overbearing at all. I've been in rooms where the bass is way too loud and muddy and don't like that at all. So I'm not a bass freak from that perspective. And I think I know what good even bass is supposed to sound like, and I have that at +10. But the question still bothers me - why do I feel this is necessary? I know some like to run their subs a little hot, maybe 5 dB. But 10 dB? I could go to +15 dB and feel the same way. And as my original graphs showed from a few days ago (from a calibration I've been running for years up until recently) I had been running with the sub like +20 without it feeling overwhelming...

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a open room (3 walls, 4th wall is not there and instead open into a much larger room). Not sure that matters tho since FR is FR.

Curious what you guys think.
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post #14872 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
And as my original graphs showed from a few days ago (from a calibration I've been running for years up until recently) I had been running with the sub like +20 without it feeling overwhelming...

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a open room (3 walls, 4th wall is not there and instead open into a much larger room). Not sure that matters tho since FR is FR.

Curious what you guys think.
Well, maybe after all these years running it 20+, that is what your brain is expecting to hear in your room, maybe you did ,in timem became a basshead

So, now you flattened the response and is technically proper, but to your ears, not so.

Last, amount of air to pressurize the room , what is the total volume of those two rooms you have connected?

Change is the only constant.

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post #14873 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Or simply load the two calibration files into REW. File > Import Frequency Response
Here ya go. Please let us know what you think of the delta: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...WGc&authuser=0

BTW when I imported these it asked me something about if the files were made with C meter and whether I wanted it to reverse/inverse this - I answered No for both imports, which I think was the right choice. If the curve looks upside down to you then that would be why meaning I chose the wrong thing.

Last edited by lovingdvd; 05-30-2015 at 09:43 AM.
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post #14874 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:44 AM
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Is there an option in REW to have it set the default graph smoothing to Var Smoothing? Basically every time I take a measure I want it to just us that smoothing by default, rather than me having to set it after each measure (or to manually have to set it with the Controls to apply to all selected as a group).
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post #14875 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
Well, maybe after all these years running it 20+, that is what your brain is expecting to hear in your room, maybe you did ,in timem became a basshead

So, now you flattened the response and is technically proper, but to your ears, not so.

Last, amount of air to pressurize the room , what is the total volume of those two rooms you have connected?
Yes and no. I'm pretty sure I know what bad bass sounds like (muddy, etc) and I think most people would find the bass I have at +10 very pleasing and would not be thinking wow that's too much bass. But I could be wrong. Unless it is supposed to be that listening to the sub for music at low to moderate levels is supposed to be a "light fill in" for sub FR as opposed to having a defined presence?

The volume of the room (including the room it opens up to) is about 5,500 cubic feet. That said, even that other part of the room (the area my main listening area is in) isn't sealed - that opens up to a hallway and other rooms. So basically there are no 4 enclosed walls at any point (before getting pretty far away). Probably about another 1,000 cubic feet if you add in all the areas before its enclosed - so say about 6,500 cubic feet from that perspective.
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post #14876 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 11:10 AM
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Hey Guys,

I'm having issues taking measurements in REW using the UMK-1 mic. I've followed the guide to the "T" and even back tracked, but I keep getting a few weird messages. Also, the few times I've actually been able to click on the measurements button and run a sweep (it gives me a message a lot saying something about an SPL meter not found) no sound is coming out of my speakers. I'm not quite sure what I am doing wrong. I've taken a few bad pictures with my cell phone to show some of the messages and some of the setup screens. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!
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Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14877 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 11:20 AM
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^^^ I've had a few similar oddities related to it complaining about the mic not seeing input intermittently.

You can try 5.12 out yesterday. Let us know if that helps.
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post #14878 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Hey Guys,

I'm having issues taking measurements in REW using the UMK-1 mic. I've followed the guide to the "T" and even back tracked, but I keep getting a few weird messages. Also, the few times I've actually been able to click on the measurements button and run a sweep (it gives me a message a lot saying something about an SPL meter not found) no sound is coming out of my speakers. I'm not quite sure what I am doing wrong. I've taken a few bad pictures with my cell phone to show some of the messages and some of the setup screens. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!
What is "HPOut"? We would expect to see "HDMI1" as the output. How is the computer connected to the AVR?

Edit: Why not take screen captures on the computer, rather than cell phone pics?
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post #14879 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
What is "HPOut"? We would expect to see "HDMI1" as the output. How is the computer connected to the AVR?

Edit: Why not take screen captures on the computer, rather than cell phone pics?
It's connected via HDMI from the laptop to the front HDMI of my receiver. I can do screen captures going forward. Sorry.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14880 of 15407 Old 05-30-2015, 02:31 PM
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It's connected via HDMI from the laptop to the front HDMI of my receiver. I can do screen captures going forward. Sorry.
I asked because the ASIO screen doesn't look like anything I have seen before.

Are you getting any sound from the laptop to the AVR from Windows before loading REW?
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