Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 508 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:27 AM
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^^^

I actually skip all that when I do the tweak.

Run a bass sweep (20-300hz), adjust the distance in 1' increments (both sub outs the same distance) and re-measure.

Keep adjusting the distance in 1' increments until you've flattened the FR over the crossover.

Done.
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:34 AM
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Do you run the sweep on channel 4 for subs or 3 for center?

So you are basically aiming to flatten the sub at 80hz, 60hz or whatever?

One more question, and I know it is contested. I have a verified spl meter (CM140) from Cross Spec and of course the Umik 1. With audyssey engaged, if I run a 30-80hz pink noise tone (-40dbfs) from the spears and munsil version 2 blu-ray, they tell me XT32 has my sub levels set low. I usually get something like 69 or 71db's.

Some say leave it, but I question that with other devices telling me something different.
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:48 AM
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You want to sweep CC+subs, so CH3. It's the interaction between the CC and subs that you are optimizing here.

You should see a dip around the crossover, if not you're one of the lucky few. You will see the dip improve as you change the sub distance setting, and you'll be able to see when you've gone too far.

XT32 always sets my subs low...same as you, right around 67-69db...so, I crank 'em up 'til it makes me happy! Usually somewhere around 7-9db higher sub trim.
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:59 AM
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Thanks! Sounds fun and not too complicated.

I figure if the Umik 1 with sens file and the CM140 are close together on a reading, I should trust in them.

Looking at my XT32 center sweeps, with xover set to 80hz, it's a hump. It's usually 70db(for example) at 70hz, 73db at 80hz and 76db at 90hz, usually peaking at 100 and then falling back off.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:02 AM
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Here is the center recently when i was checking a 60hz xover vs 80hz with XT32 on

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Old 06-17-2015, 11:11 AM
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Yeah, you kinda got a hump right above the xover and a dip right below....the tweak may be able to flatten out both, hard to say until you get at it. With my system, there's always a big dip at the xover pre-tweak.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Here is the center recently when i was checking a 60hz xover vs 80hz with XT32 on


Wait a minute, is the the CC only? I see it's dropping off at like 45hz, so that has got to be the 64ii alone, right?

If so, that's won't tell us anything about the CC+Sub interaction.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:19 AM
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Man, ive run so many dang charts the last two weeks and movers speakers around, I am confused. Factor in drugs and wisdom teeth removal there is no telling.

Here is an older one
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Man, ive run so many dang charts the last two weeks and movers speakers around, I am confused. Factor in drugs and wisdom teeth removal there is no telling.
Ha! I know how you feel!

It'll all become clear when you start fresh.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:24 AM
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Well, and all my planning and charting has been mismatched subs. With the 2nd Rythmik going in today so we will see what happens next.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:36 PM
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XT32 Off


XT32 Reference


XT32 Flat


Red is mismatched subs and blue is dual FV15HP's (low end picked up nicely)


No Xt32 red, Reference Blue and Flat Green
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

I actually skip all that when I do the tweak.

Run a bass sweep (20-300hz), adjust the distance in 1' increments (both sub outs the same distance) and re-measure.

Keep adjusting the distance in 1' increments until you've flattened the FR over the crossover.

Done.
Alan when you say adjust the distance out for both subs in one foot increments are you saying add a foot, example sub distance 12', make both 13', TIA.
Cheers Jeff
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:18 PM
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I have to imagine that at some point you switch you inches for fine tuning.
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Old 06-18-2015, 05:05 AM
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I tinkered last night and of course there was a slight dip there. It was more like a 1 or 2 db slope and then it came back up. Long story short I increased and decreased the distance and each time it did nothing, did nothing, did nothing, and then BAM, out of whack. So I left it at the XT32 settings.
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Old 06-18-2015, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Alan when you say adjust the distance out for both subs in one foot increments are you saying add a foot, example sub distance 12', make both 13', TIA.
Cheers Jeff
Correct Jeff!

Try both directions though, both up and down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I tinkered last night and of course there was a slight dip there. It was more like a 1 or 2 db slope and then it came back up. Long story short I increased and decreased the distance and each time it did nothing, did nothing, did nothing, and then BAM, out of whack. So I left it at the XT32 settings.
At least now you know.

You are one of the lucky few where XT32 actually gets it right.

Just to make certain....you were measuring CC+subs, right (CH3 output in REW)? And you were adjusting both subs the same distance each time?
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Old 06-18-2015, 07:52 AM
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Yes and yes. They were able to go up in distance 2 feet with no real change, and then it got haywire. They went closer 1 foot and were fine, at 2 feet closer they went haywire.
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Last edited by gadgtfreek; 06-18-2015 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 06-18-2015, 01:38 PM
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Old 06-18-2015, 10:01 PM
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First Sub Compression Measurements

Hi

I am very excited to post my first sub compression measurements with REW. Great program!

I first checked my REW calibration against my MC-140 spl meter by running sub cal pink noise in REW and measurements where within 2 db or each other. I set my mic input in windows to about 10 % (I am using Win 7).

I started with my processor at -20 db which when running sub cal pink noise on REW set at -12 measured about 77 db. From there I increased the volume by about 3 db for each subsequent measurement. Just wondering why I measured about 77 db on REW using its sub cal pink noise (and verified by my CM-140 spl meter) but REW measured it at around 90 db on its first measurment sweep that is in dark green (both my pink noise sub cal in REW signal generator and measurement sweeps where at -12 db). Does the sweep measure louder then the pink noise for some reason?

What do you guys think? Please feel free to ask any questions as I want to make sure that I did this correctly.

My Sub is a Velodyne HGS-15 Servo 15 inch woofer, 1250 watt RMS/3000 watts peak and is probably 10 yrs old or so. Frequency response should be 18 hz to 120 hz +- 3 db. I took measurements from the MLP that is about 9 feet away from the sub. I was reading somewhere where it said that my sub should be hitting about 110 db from 40 to 80 hz at 2 meters but I am only really hitting about 102 db at about 2.75 meters so somewhat lower then what I was hoping for.

My sub is calibrated using DIRAC via an XMC-1 processor.

Also is there a way I can make the chart appear larger in my post?
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Last edited by Frank D; 06-18-2015 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:51 AM
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I have learned that your room dictates a lot. I have dual FV15HP's now and this is my compression sweep from yesterday:



I feel a lot of powerful bass during a movie, but of course it isn't as high as some would assume for these duals. My room is 7200cuft roughly so I have a lot of bass leakage into a kitchen and dining area, and my subs are 11.5 feet from the MLP.

End of the day it sounds good and is a pretty nice response. I also have some good power under 20hz. Not sure if you are able but I have been able to flatten my response out more by moving the subs around. Only one sub has some movement and I got the best result from moving it as far away from sub 1 as I could.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post
Hi

I am very excited to post my first sub compression measurements with REW. Great program!

I first checked my REW calibration against my MC-140 spl meter by running sub cal pink noise in REW and measurements where within 2 db or each other. I set my mic input in windows to about 10 % (I am using Win 7).

I started with my processor at -20 db which when running sub cal pink noise on REW set at -12 measured about 77 db. From there I increased the volume by about 3 db for each subsequent measurement. Just wondering why I measured about 77 db on REW using its sub cal pink noise (and verified by my CM-140 spl meter) but REW measured it at around 90 db on its first measurment sweep that is in dark green (both my pink noise sub cal in REW signal generator and measurement sweeps where at -12 db). Does the sweep measure louder then the pink noise for some reason?

What do you guys think? Please feel free to ask any questions as I want to make sure that I did this correctly.

My Sub is a Velodyne HGS-15 Servo 15 inch woofer, 1250 watt RMS/3000 watts peak and is probably 10 yrs old or so. Frequency response should be 18 hz to 120 hz +- 3 db. I took measurements from the MLP that is about 9 feet away from the sub. I was reading somewhere where it said that my sub should be hitting about 110 db from 40 to 80 hz at 2 meters but I am only really hitting about 102 db at about 2.75 meters so somewhat lower then what I was hoping for.

My sub is calibrated using DIRAC via an XMC-1 processor.

Also is there a way I can make the chart appear larger in my post?
First of all, the response measurements are showing to be pretty flat, so let's recognize that your results are quite good. Second, note that the shape of the curve changes slightly as you increase the output. You might want to click on the "Distortion" tab to see if the distortion levels are significantly higher for the loudest measurements.

I am not quite sure regarding your question about measuring the level with pink noise, and then having the actual measurement sweeps register louder. On the Signal Generator pink noise screen, there are three choices, "Sub cal", "Speaker cal", and "Full range". Are you using "Sub cal"?

And finally, to post "full size" images, you need to use a hosting site (I use DropBox.com, for example). Upload your images, click on "Insert Image", and then paste in the DropBox Public Link.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:33 AM
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Yep, my THD is pretty high down low on the two loudest measurements which is why I am going to try 2 ports open mode today. We watch movies in that volume range so even if I lose some beloow18hz I need less distortion I think.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:00 AM
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Speaking of measuring distortion - here's some info from John that he posted to me in the Shack that I wanted to share:
Quote:
To measure the power level that starts to cause significant distortion on your sub you are best using the CEA-2010 test signal, it was designed for that purpose - see the help - and use the RTA to check the result.
@AustinJerry - Perhaps this would be good to add to a future edition of the guide?

Edit: Though in reading that part of the help file - it explains nicely what to do, but I am a little unsure of what to look for in the RTA as far as determining at what point the distortion because enough to be considered relevant (IOW what the threshold is for acceptable vs non-acceptable distortion, as subject I believe was talked about here a few months ago but not sure it was ever decided or answered).

Last edited by lovingdvd; 06-19-2015 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
First of all, the response measurements are showing to be pretty flat, so let's recognize that your results are quite good. Second, note that the shape of the curve changes slightly as you increase the output. You might want to click on the "Distortion" tab to see if the distortion levels are significantly higher for the loudest measurements.

I am not quite sure regarding your question about measuring the level with pink noise, and then having the actual measurement sweeps register louder. On the Signal Generator pink noise screen, there are three choices, "Sub cal", "Speaker cal", and "Full range". Are you using "Sub cal"?

And finally, to post "full size" images, you need to use a hosting site (I use DropBox.com, for example). Upload your images, click on "Insert Image", and then paste in the DropBox Public Link.
Thanks Austin. I have attached three distortion graphs at lowest, mid and highest tested volume. Please tell me what you honestly think.

Regarding my question about measurement levels I used "sub cal" from REW Generator using pink noise at -12 db for RMS Level dB FS and came up with 77 db as per the REW SPL Meter and also per my CM-140 seperate unit SPL meter too. Now when I go to measure with REW that is also set at -12 db (and keeping my processor volume still the same) it shows an approximate vol of 90 db as can be seen from my first measurement. I know the sweeps are different than pink noise but I am just wondering why such a large difference in volume? Perhaps I am missing something simple/fundamental as to sweeps vs pink noise and their measured db?

Thank you regarding DropBox tip.
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:19 AM
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Looks like distortion is good even on the high.

Being I am a rookie I ahve a few room rattles and a fireplace, do those skew your low end THD result?
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Looks like distortion is good even on the high.

Being I am a rookie I ahve a few room rattles and a fireplace, do those skew your low end THD result?
Thanks for the comment. What is THD level/numbers when it start to get bad?


Regarding your question, from my understanding of distortion, it is basically whatever is not part of the original signal so I think the answer would most likely be yes. Especially if those noises are in the same frequency range as the original signal being measured, I would think.

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Old 06-19-2015, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Looks like distortion is good even on the high.

Being I am a rookie I ahve a few room rattles and a fireplace, do those skew your low end THD result?

My off-the-top-of-my-head response:


THD measures the relation between the test tone and the harmonics.

THD+N includes THD and adds other noise, like rattling.

If the rattling includes frequencies at the harmonics of the test tone, then yes, otherwise, should be no, for the THD measurement.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_harmonic_distortion


You could use the RTA display and the Tone Generator (single frequency) to excite the rattle, and view the resulting Tone, Harmonic, and Noise levels, and see what test frequencies excites the rattle, and what frequencies the rattling produces.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:38 AM
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Can anyone comment on what to look for in regards to bad THD levels when using REW? For subs and for other speakers?
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
My off-the-top-of-my-head response:


THD measures the relation between the test tone and the harmonics.

THD+N includes THD and adds other noise, like rattling.

If the rattling includes frequencies at the harmonics of the test tone, then yes, otherwise, should be no, for the THD measurement.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_harmonic_distortion


You could use the RTA display and the Tone Generator (single frequency) to excite the rattle, and view the resulting Tone, Harmonic, and Noise levels, and see what test frequencies excites the rattle, and what frequencies the rattling produces.
In doing this to track down all the rattles in your room, is this really strenuous on speakers?
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Old 06-19-2015, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
In doing this to track down all the rattles in your room, is this really strenuous on speakers?
If you need a high level to do it, then use Audacity or other program to generate bursts.


Create 1/2 second of tone with a 1-2 cycle fade in and fade out... A second or two of silence. Press Shift and press the play button and it repeats.

Lots of things you can do there.

RTA monitors whatever the mic hears, it doesn't matter where you generate the test sounds.

--

Audactity can record from the mic too.

Here's one second of 80Hz sine tone along with the decay of that sound in the room as seen by the mic in Audacity. Tone, then room resonance, and decay into the noise floor.


I'll be back later...


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Old 06-19-2015, 05:23 PM
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Looking at that, it is obvious that my center (purple) is low most of the sweep. I use spears and munsil edition 2 to check levels and it has a -30dbfs pink noise from from 500hz to 2khz. If you note, that area looks pretty good between the 3 speakers. 200-500 and 3000 and on the center is low.

Would simply boosting the center another 2 db in the menu be the fix for this? it's quite consistent between runs.
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