Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 510 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15271 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
...

The fact that you are using Mac/Sunflower always makes it harder to provide the correct recommendations, since I have never see or used that interface. I assume that you are feeding your AVR two connections, one into the left channel and one into the right channel.
I did so, with RCA prior to HDMI, now Soundflower( sorry I mistyped last few posts)-that is virtual audio device, allows easy switching between HDMI 1-8 signal feeds( similar to ASIO on Windows)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You only have 2 subs right? If so, you are never going to get a good response by spreading out the Audyssey mic positions like you are....just too much variation in the response for Audyssey to deal with.
Do a quick-n-dirty 3 point Audyssey cal - 1st at MLP, 2nd 6" to the right, 3rd 6" to the left - and re-measure with REW. I bet it will look a whole lot better.
Yes, two subs in front corners. Yes I tried to see if I can get uniform sound for most seats, but as you say, I will try to concentrate on front row, two mid seats and see what magic happens, will keep you all updated.

Much appreciated,
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post #15272 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You only have 2 subs right?
Now THAT would make an interesting poll.
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post #15273 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
I did so, with RCA prior to HDMI, now Soundflower( sorry I mistyped last few posts)-that is virtual audio device, allows easy switching between HDMI 1-8 signal feeds( similar to ASIO on Windows)


Yes, two subs in front corners. Yes I tried to see if I can get uniform sound for most seats, but as you say, I will try to concentrate on front row, two mid seats and see what magic happens, will keep you all updated.

Much appreciated,
Sinisa
Both subs up front?? Not a chance of smoothing over two rows of seating...you need to get one of the sub in back (or maybe on one of the side walls) to even come close.
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post #15274 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 09:54 AM
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^^^
Yeah, I have room for one more sub in the back just by the riser for second row close to the door( needs to be less then 18 inches wide), no room on side walls( you can see the pics in my sig). And I have to sneak it in, so that my wife does not notice it

Change is the only constant.

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post #15275 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 10:01 AM
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WOW! Very nice looking theater!!

Yeah...that back row, being up against the back wall....it's gonna be impossible to get good bass back there.
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post #15276 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 10:09 AM
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Thanks, I like my HT! I would have liked if I had 2-3 more feet of length but can't complain.
There are even more treatments on the walls now then in those pics, I have 24x24 inch MOnster Bass traps on back wall in corners and one more panel on side wall, so that helped a LOT compared to bare walls but treatments have their limits...

Change is the only constant.

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post #15277 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
it's gonna be impossible to get good bass back there.
In-wall sub(s)?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #15278 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
No way that Audyssey on should be significantly worse than Audyssey off without some other contributing factor.
sinisanav and I have the Antimode + Audyssey MultEQ XT. With Antimode only, 20Hz - 200Hz is smooooth. Post-Audyssey, the bass region became worse. I've done many mic placement options and the result is the same. kbarnes suggested me to disable the Audyssey.

If you have XT32, things could be different due to the higher resolution.
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post #15279 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
sinisanav and I have the Antimode + Audyssey MultEQ XT. With Antimode only, 20Hz - 200Hz is smooooth. Post-Audyssey, the bass region became worse. I've done many mic placement options and the result is the same. kbarnes suggested me to disable the Audyssey.

If you have XT32, things could be different due to the higher resolution.
Another test, of course, is to disable the Antimode and see what Audyssey does on its own. This still doesn't explain why Autimode+Audyssey is worse. I have used PEQ to present Audyssey with less work to do, and the results have always been positive.
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post #15280 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
sinisanav and I have the Antimode + Audyssey MultEQ XT. With Antimode only, 20Hz - 200Hz is smooooth. Post-Audyssey, the bass region became worse. I've done many mic placement options and the result is the same. kbarnes suggested me to disable the Audyssey.

If you have XT32, things could be different due to the higher resolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Another test, of course, is to disable the Antimode and see what Audyssey does on its own. This still doesn't explain why Autimode+Audyssey is worse. I have used PEQ to present Audyssey with less work to do, and the results have always been positive.
I have just re-run Audyssey with different mic positions, more centered on three seats in first row, remeasured with REW, response is better but not optimal, I will post a few comparisons later today or tomorrow, I think it has to do with mic positioning when doing Audyssey, flatter response as I positioned mic closer to MLP . Nice to hear that other had same experience as I do. For better or worse...
Right now I am enjoying some music on the system, with Audyssey on, will try listening tomorrow with it off, to see if I can hear something different, listening to some Sting,Marvin Gaye, Stones, Dire Straits,Annie Lennox,Adele,Amy Winehouse,Stones,U2,Pink Floyd.... Good stuff, lots of drums,bas guitars
Like how Antimode has flattened things out, I am debating with myself should I even try Wider area correction. Skylinestar, have you ever tried that setup, or you just EQed MLP?

Change is the only constant.

My HT: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post32691273
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post #15281 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 09:08 PM
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So, here are the comparisons.
RED measurements are with Audyssey mics set in 8 positions in both rows of seating.
YELLOW measurements are from today where I have placed mic in 8 positions over three front row seats only.

You will see that all speakers have more uniform response, but not yet optimal. Tomorrow or over weekend will do ultimate odyssey setup concentrating only on two middle front row "premium seats"









Last one is subs only with Antimode(blue) only, and then Red with Audyssey in both rows and Yellow with front row only, again yellow looks better then red, but not as good as blue.



I think that every Yellow measurement looks better then Red. So, optimizing smaller area of the whole room for best response. I guess I will be a bit selfish when it comes to which chair to choose to sit in.

Change is the only constant.

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post #15282 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 09:16 PM
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If we could see the measurements, that would be great. How are you attaching them?

The question is, did you run Audyssey with the Antimode in bypass? We would like to see if there is an undesirable interaction between the two.
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post #15283 of 15298 Old 07-02-2015, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
Like how Antimode has flattened things out, I am debating with myself should I even try Wider area correction. Skylinestar, have you ever tried that setup, or you just EQed MLP?
I've never bothered with wider area correction as I want the best correction at the MLP.
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post #15284 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If we could see the measurements, that would be great. How are you attaching them?

The question is, did you run Audyssey with the Antimode in bypass? We would like to see if there is an undesirable interaction between the two.
Crap, I did not check the post yesterday. I attached as links to jpegs on dropbox...

No, Antimode was engaged, what I did is rearranged mic positions much closer together then first time, concentrating on first row,of seating things improved, I will repost pics when I get back home.

Next, I think I will do when I run Audyssey, is separate mic positions in 6" increments ( as Alan P reccomended) concentrating on even smaller smaller sweet spot, just for MLP and adjoining seat.

Change is the only constant.

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post #15285 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
I've never bothered with wider area correction as I want the best correction at the MLP.
Okay, we're not coming to YOUR house any time soon.



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post #15286 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
Crap, I did not check the post yesterday. I attached as links to jpegs on dropbox...

No, Antimode was engaged, what I did is rearranged mic positions much closer together then first time, concentrating on first row,of seating things improved, I will repost pics when I get back home.

Next, I think I will do when I run Audyssey, is separate mic positions in 6" increments ( as Alan P reccomended) concentrating on even smaller smaller sweet spot, just for MLP and adjoining seat.
Please don't forget to try the single point measurement (same place for all 8 measurement).
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post #15287 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
Crap, I did not check the post yesterday. I attached as links to jpegs on dropbox...

No, Antimode was engaged, what I did is rearranged mic positions much closer together then first time, concentrating on first row,of seating things improved, I will repost pics when I get back home.

Next, I think I will do when I run Audyssey, is separate mic positions in 6" increments ( as Alan P reccomended) concentrating on even smaller smaller sweet spot, just for MLP and adjoining seat.
Well, obviously you did something wrong when inserting the images. You should right-click the file on Dropbox, select "copy public link", then open the "insert image" icon on AVS and paste in the link.

You can experiment with mic placements all you want, but a simple change in placement is not going to correct the serious problems your measurements are revealing. What is your reluctance to try a calibration with the Antimode in bypass? If interaction between the Antimode and Audyssey is the problem, at least you can make an informed decision on how to proceed.
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post #15288 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
Please don't forget to try the single point measurement (same place for all 8 measurement).
What is the purpose of a single-point measurement? Is this just a test, or would you consider a single-point measurement as a permanent solution?
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post #15289 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 07:59 AM
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What is the purpose of a single-point measurement? Is this just a test, or would you consider a single-point measurement as a permanent solution?
This makes me very curious as well and would like to know the reasoning for doing this, I'm not trying to be smart, just puzzled.
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post #15290 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 08:41 AM
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This makes me very curious as well and would like to know the reasoning for doing this, I'm not trying to be smart, just puzzled.
I presume that single point would hone into making a perfect response for only that one particular spot in the room.

Regardless here are my measurements with Audyssey mics set across three left first row seats, looking from the screen, as you will see in the pic.

You can see that Audyssey did better job, so next step is to bunch all 8 mic positions onto two middle front row seats, MLP is the one adjacent to the chair with keyboard on. If that does not do really well then I would do Audyssey with bypassing antimode. Although even now, first image that has blue antimode sweep shows that these are getting close.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but they look better with Anti-Mode bypassed.......
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Correct me if I'm wrong but they look better with Anti-Mode bypassed.......
Which measurement has the Antimode in bypass? I didn't see that in the labelling.
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post #15293 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
I presume that single point would hone into making a perfect response for only that one particular spot in the room.
No. Single-point calibrations have been shown to sound lifeless. Tight mic spacing, on the other hand, can have some benefits, if optimizing for one seat.
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post #15294 of 15298 Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Which measurement has the Antimode in bypass? I didn't see that in the labelling.
Sorry Jerry, I misread his post, I thought he said it was Audyssey with Anti-Mode bypassed, reading his discription there is no mention of bypass.......
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post #15295 of 15298 Old Today, 06:07 AM
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Sorry Jerry, I misread his post, I thought he said it was Audyssey with Anti-Mode bypassed, reading his discription there is no mention of bypass.......
Correct, the first graph shows Subs in blue with Antimode only, then in yellow Antimode+ audyssey(first row mic positions) and red Antimode +Audyssey( mics spread out in both rows).

You are right Jeff, Antimode alone in below 100 Hz still beats Audyssey but now the difference is much smaller, response swings within 5-6 dB not 16 db as it was when I tried to optimize whole seating area.

I think I will do some movie watching and more music listening next few days comparing these two before I decide to run Auddysey with bypassed Antimode. Getting tired of the tweaking, will do some enjoying now.

Happy Fourth of July to all in US!

Sinisa

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post #15296 of 15298 Old Today, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post

I think I will do some movie watching and more music listening next few days comparing these two before I decide to run Auddysey with bypassed Antimode. Getting tired of the tweaking, will do some enjoying now.

Happy Fourth of July to all in US!

Sinisa
The measurements labeled "front" show improvement, but still fall far short of the Antimode with Audyssey off measurement, and are still not that good. While I understand all this tinkering can be tiresome, I wouldn't be able to sleep unless I at least tried Audyssey without the Antimode. Who knows, it may be better than anything we have seen so far. But that's just me--I enjoy experimentation.

Enjoy your Fourth as well!
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Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
Correct, the first graph shows Subs in blue with Antimode only, then in yellow Antimode+ audyssey(first row mic positions) and red Antimode +Audyssey( mics spread out in both rows).

You are right Jeff, Antimode alone in below 100 Hz still beats Audyssey but now the difference is much smaller, response swings within 5-6 dB not 16 db as it was when I tried to optimize whole seating area.

I think I will do some movie watching and more music listening next few days comparing these two before I decide to run Auddysey with bypassed Antimode. Getting tired of the tweaking, will do some enjoying now.

Happy Fourth of July to all in US!

Sinisa
First question, how many measurement positions does the Antimode support - if it's just one then that explains the almost perfect sub response. It is correcting for one point in space, and you are then measuring that single point in space. When you run Audyssey you immediately start sampling multiple locations, but you still measure that single point in space with REW.
As a test - run Audyssey without moving the microphone, and then measure the result with REW at the same location - you'll get a really good result. However, the responses at other locations within the room will be unknown. Now measure at multiple locations throughout the room using REW and post them - that will give an idea about the seat to seat variance within the room, and the sort of data that Audyssey normally has to work with as it attempts to compensate for the whole room (not really possible). This exercise may identify the locations in you room that have poor response - and as such maybe they should be excluded from Audyssey measurements in future - as they will simply throw off the whole calibration.
Alternatively, concentrate the measurements around the main listening locations, and let the other areas fall where they will.

Regards, Mike.
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post #15298 of 15298 Old Today, 10:46 AM
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^^^
Antimode supports either 1 spot( that how I have it set now) or wide are correction where it gets response from 2 mic positions.

I am , truthfully most interested in front row mid seats positions, and that is what I am concentrating now, I will be doing some listening with Audyssey on and off to see if I can hear something, I already once did REW measurements for all seats, so will do that again at some point.

Change is the only constant.

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