Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 515 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15421 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Would it be safe to say 100Hz is the highest crossover worth using with this measured frequency response?
Forget the crossover choice for a moment. What is your plan to address that huge peak? That can't sound very good.
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post #15422 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Forget the crossover choice for a moment. What is your plan to address that huge peak? That can't sound very good.
well auto EQ in the future when I upgrade the AVR... can't say how it sounds vs. a flatter response since this is the only one I've heard

on a side note, does this "spl meter" need to be in C-Weighted mode when using the UMIK-1? Up til just a moment ago, it was in the Z-Weighted mode. Just realized that.
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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post #15423 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 08:57 AM
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Actually, I can place it in between the front left and surround left outside the desk and near the wall... this would be halfway along the left wall well under and to the right of the double window on that wall.

This might change the sub's FR by a lot...

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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post #15424 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
well auto EQ in the future when I upgrade the AVR... can't say how it sounds vs. a flatter response since this is the only one I've heard

on a side note, does this "spl meter" need to be in C-Weighted mode when using the UMIK-1? Up til just a moment ago, it was in the Z-Weighted mode. Just realized that.
Auto EQ is unlikely to be able to fix that peak. A different sub placement is more likely to get relief.

The REW SPL weighting only affects SPL use. Fix the setting and don't worry about it anymore.
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post #15425 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Auto EQ is unlikely to be able to fix that peak. A different sub placement is more likely to get relief.

The REW SPL weighting only affects SPL use. Fix the setting and don't worry about it anymore.
ok, the new sub placement should make a big difference as it's out of that corner under the desk and in a more open spot

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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post #15426 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 03:34 PM
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New Spot (more details in related thread):
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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post #15427 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 03:36 PM
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BTW, am I measuring at high enough dB based on these pics:

Starting out with REW... evaluating post auto-cal results (without auto-EQ)

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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post #15428 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 04:00 PM
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Yup, your volume is fine.
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post #15429 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 04:04 PM
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Yup, your volume is fine.
Good to know
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post #15430 of 15449 Old Yesterday, 04:05 PM
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Sub position
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post #15431 of 15449 Old Today, 03:56 AM
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Hi everyone. Just got the UMIK-1 and started taking some measurements.

Some issues:

I am running REW under Ubuntu 14.04 and REW does not auto detect the USB mic so it also seems to be ignoring the sensitivity factor. On my mic the sens is -.2226dB according to minidsp and that seems way different than what is in Jerry's guide.

So I just turned on the 75dB subwoofer cal signal on the AVR and selected "use an external signal" then told REW that it was getting 75dB, what I set my sub output to according to the AVR during auto cal.

I am a little confused about this sensitivity factor. Does it affect just the spl meter or does it affect all the measurements? Is there any way to get REW to use it under Ubuntu? Or maybe more succinctly, how do I calibrate with a UMIK-1 when REW does not recognize it under Ubuntu? Must I use an SPL meter?

I have to select the USB mic in pulse audio and use default in REW so in pulse I set the input level to 100% and REW seems to work OK with my receiver volume set to -20dB.

My receiver has no multichannel analog input so I am also using spdif to the receiver. There is no equivalent to ASIO in Ubuntu and I have had no luck getting Jack installed and working despite trying it several times over the last couple of years including Ubuntu Studio. This makes channel selection difficult, even more so since the wide and high channels are synthesized anyway and there is no corresponding channel in the stream to drive them.

Instead I have used various sound modes and speaker connections to test different channels. I ran in direct mode (stereo out from Ubuntu) and swapped speaker connections for full range speaker sweeps. I ran in full mono 11.1 for the waterfall. Prior to these measurements I used low frequency sweeps to set the MLP distance to the back wall with the l/r mains as a guide, and then checked some other things out too trying to familiarize myself with the tool.

There is a huge ring at 20Hz that does not seem to improve much when I open all the doors (pantry, bathroom, bedroom, sliding glass door to balcony). Based on room mode calculator this is slightly below the lowest mode and the only thing I can think of is the PB10-NSD port tuning, but it is still ringing a full second later!

Just now I took a look around the web and discovered that floors can resonate. Would that be it? How do I tell? Certainly I can feel the floor shake when I jump.

I did check the noise floor and set the waterfall limit just a couple DB above it. The noise went up when I opened all the doors and I had to increase the limits on the graph 5dB to compensate.

There is also another bass resonance at about 47Hz that seems related to the 12' length of the listening space as well as the 24' width. Although a little annoying it does not seem as problematic as the huge dip at around 60Hz where the modes are sparse and there seems to be strong cancellation null I cannot get out of around 70Hz on the left speaker.

I did note marked changes in response with minor changes in microphone height but did not save any such plots or measurements. I only took them to verify what I suspected, that in a small room with short length the listening position is compromised no matter what placement.

The system is 11.2 with Sapphire/TSC (Infinity founder Cary Christie designed these) tower/center/bookshelf models and dual PB10's plus TX-NR929. It appears that the tweeter in the center speaker is attenuated so I may end up modifying that crossover eventually. Sitting flat on top of a low glass/metal stand is not helping things.

Finally, being in an apartment I cannot exactly run full range sweeps at 90dB all day so if I do run a measurement I have to keep it below deafening and make it count.

Anyway here is a waterfall and a spectrogram and an SPL and some random pics of the room plus DIY absorber treatments constructed of bedding and tuned by ear, except I forgot to include one pic of the short hallway in the corner that might also be part of that 20Hz ring?

Unfortunately it seems that the measurement data of the full frequency sweeps of the left and right channel did not get saved. There seem to be some bugs in the user interface that make it very difficult to save data sometimes. The wrong data gets saved, different from what is selected in the UI, after the display slots are all full and it starts deleting measurements automatically. Then also once I save data I cannot remove it from the display with the 'x' in the corner, I have to use the menu or 'remove all' instead.

The absorbers above the subwoofers are comforters folded accordian-style into 8-ply, the absorber below the projector is a comforter folded into 4-ply hanging in front of a string of 3 pillows doubled up (6 total), and the absorbers over/under the end table in the corner are 5 pillows pinned together and rolled up into a cylindrical shape. All absorbers average about 12" thick though I suspect their effective thickness may vary and there might even be some diaphragm action going on with all the covers/shams on the pillows and comforters. Spacing to the wall is minimum of 4" (rear absorber) with more space (over 12") behind the corner absorbers and there is air trapped inside the loose accordian pleats as well. Objective was to make them as inexpensive and broadband as possible and I deployed them according to the list of usual suspects. The maroon blanket and black polyester on the front wall are only there to absorb the light bleed through the AT screen.

All measurements were taken with the screen up and no dark brown terrycloth towel pinned over the LCD. Prefer to tune the system with those articles deployed, eventually, if it matters. For now, Audyssey is not helping things at all -- the flattish curves are too bright for this room now that it has been treated. It did help when the room was more empty though.

I go back to reading and await guidance on what I should do next from the very kind people on AVS Forum. Sorry for posting so much, I just am sort of at a loss where to begin analyzing. I was thinking I was going to be checking out my room treatments to see if I got them done right and now I am starting to realize I really have no clue what to do. I tried creating an ETC and have no clue where to start with that or how to interpret it. My center speaker has an ETC where the full range in question seems way too high.

Short summary is now that I have dunked my toe in I am stumped about how to execute that perfect swan dive from a 30 meter cliff.

PS I am working through Jerry's guide while googling for more info. Very helpful. Thx Jerry!
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post #15432 of 15449 Old Today, 04:37 AM
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My receiver has no multichannel analog input so I am also using spdif to the receiver.
Use RCA cables. Unplug one at a time for left and right, set receiver to Dolby PLII for center channel. Sub(s) get(s) turned on and off manually.

The rest will be answered by those wiser than I.


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post #15433 of 15449 Old Today, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Some things to try:

-Unplug and replug the Mic
-Open/close REW (ASIO needs exclusive control of the devices I believe)
-Reboot the machine
-Uninstall a sound card if you're using HDMI out of your video card (desktop only, I had to do this)
I rebooted.
Then I went back through the setup. I decided to try to change the HDMI speaker setting to 24 bit 48 kHz instead of 16 bit 48 kHz, to match the microphone setting (the option to change the UMIK-1 microphone to anything else is grayed out).
Not sure which fixed it, but I can now select any channel in output, and in the ASIO control panel the High Definition Audio Device now says "Active - Polling (push)"
Another change is that the display is off.

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Receiver: Denon X1100W, 1712CI, 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
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post #15434 of 15449 Old Today, 05:49 AM
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@highmr , when you close the ASIO control panel are you clicking on the wrench so the red X is gone, if so just try closing REW and boot back up, you may also try clicking on the input and output in the ASIO control panel and then close the program and reboot. You may have to do this several times to get it too work, ASIO driver is finicky....
Thanks for the help. I think I have it working.

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post #15435 of 15449 Old Today, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
New Spot (more details in related thread):
Does this look significantly better?
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post #15436 of 15449 Old Today, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post

There is a huge ring at 20Hz that does not seem to improve much when I open all the doors (pantry, bathroom, bedroom, sliding glass door to balcony). Based on room mode calculator this is slightly below the lowest mode and the only thing I can think of is the PB10-NSD port tuning, but it is still ringing a full second later!
Above 25hz, the excessive ringing abates. For most music, this isnt too big a deal since there is little content <25hz. For movies or movie soundtracks, you could EQ down that region and gain some benefit.

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post #15437 of 15449 Old Today, 08:55 AM
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When I run setup through my PC, the most channels I can get is 2.0. My setup is 3.1. Will I be able to run REW properly with this?

Also, although the tutorial PDF shows that REW recognizes the UMM-6 by name and my UMIK-1 is called Mic 1, is this okay?

Finally, do I need to use an SPL Meter if I have a calibrated UMIK-1 from Cross-Spectrum Acoustics? I shipped mine out to my sister for her apartment and don't want to buy another one if I don't have to.

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post #15438 of 15449 Old Today, 08:56 AM
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Will REW work with Windows 10?

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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post #15439 of 15449 Old Today, 10:45 AM
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Will REW work with Windows 10?
Yep. Someone a few pages back was testing mic volume settings with REW in Windows 10.
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post #15440 of 15449 Old Today, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Will REW work with Windows 10?
Yep. Someone a few pages back was testing mic volume settings with REW in Windows 10.
Any risks of things not working 100% as they are now with 8.1?
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post #15441 of 15449 Old Today, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
Above 25hz, the excessive ringing abates. For most music, this isnt too big a deal since there is little content <25hz. For movies or movie soundtracks, you could EQ down that region and gain some benefit.
I tend to use dynamic volume for movies in here. Not only does the whole room shake at 20hz, but also there are neighbors behind the walls and under the floor.

I have been considering manual graphic EQ in the receiver on all channels now that REW is working and I have a chance of actually doing something intelligent with eq. I suppose this is as good a time as any to start trimming the response, especially since I am not likely to fix that 20hz ringing any time soon any other way. Besides, I want to put a room curve on the response and am not interested in dropping a wad on Dirac just now.

I wonder if the springy sectional was resonating? Would that show up in the measurement? The mic tripod sits on it. I suppose the best way to tell is to measure with the mic stand on something else...

Is the sensitivity calibration essential or can I keep running REW digital without a real spl cal? Presumably the receiver output is very flat and the auto level cal somewhat accurate. I am not planning on any power compression testing here. My neighbors care more about their knicknacks hitting the floor than the power compression of my subs.

More to the point, what measurements will tell me if I tuned the room treatments correctly, and how do I take them? Electronics I know, acoustics is a foreign country to me. What I see in the measurements I took so far seems to indicate that the reverb is well controlled but maybe a little overdamped (200ms to the noise floor) everywhere above about 50Hz.

Where do I go from here?
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post #15442 of 15449 Old Today, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
I tend to use dynamic volume for movies in here. Not only does the whole room shake at 20hz, but also there are neighbors behind the walls and under the floor.

I have been considering manual graphic EQ in the receiver on all channels now that REW is working and I have a chance of actually doing something intelligent with eq. I suppose this is as good a time as any to start trimming the response, especially since I am not likely to fix that 20hz ringing any time soon any other way. Besides, I want to put a room curve on the response and am not interested in dropping a wad on Dirac just now.

I wonder if the springy sectional was resonating? Would that show up in the measurement? The mic tripod sits on it. I suppose the best way to tell is to measure with the mic stand on something else...

Is the sensitivity calibration essential or can I keep running REW digital without a real spl cal? Presumably the receiver output is very flat and the auto level cal somewhat accurate. I am not planning on any power compression testing here. My neighbors care more about their knicknacks hitting the floor than the power compression of my subs.

More to the point, what measurements will tell me if I tuned the room treatments correctly, and how do I take them? Electronics I know, acoustics is a foreign country to me. What I see in the measurements I took so far seems to indicate that the reverb is well controlled but maybe a little overdamped (200ms to the noise floor) everywhere above about 50Hz.

Where do I go from here?
If you share your mdats, ill take a look.
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post #15443 of 15449 Old Today, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highmr View Post
Thanks for the help. I think I have it working.
You're quite welcome, I also use 24 bit 48 kHz on both the input and output, I don't have the option of using 16 bit 48 kHz on both so I just use same, figured it's best to have them both set the same. I'm curious, what do mean you the display is off?

Cheers Jeffrrey
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Hey Guys would I benefit from Using MiniDSP 2x4 to Time-Align Multiple Subs with Audyssey prior to calibration if my receiver has SUBEQ HT? Forgive my ignorance if this is a simple answer.....Thanks

Cheers Jeffrey
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hey Guys would I benefit from Using MiniDSP 2x4 to Time-Align Multiple Subs with Audyssey prior to calibration if my receiver has SUBEQ HT? Forgive my ignorance if this is a simple answer.....Thanks

Cheers Jeffrey
Depends. How many subs do you have? To provide an example, I have four subs. They are arranged in two pairs, and within each pair, the subs are equidistant from the MLP. So, with exact pair connected to one sub channel on the XT32 AVR, Audyssey SubEQ HT was able to set the proper delay for each pair, and the resulting calibration was excellent. In this example, a MiniDSP 2x4 was not needed.

In your case, if you have two subs, you don't need a 2x4. If you have more than two subs, it will depend on their placement whether you need the 2x4. Please share with us your sub configuration.
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Any risks of things not working 100% as they are now with 8.1?
It's always possible, though I doubt it as Windows 10 is built on the same architecture as 8 (as far as I know).

We'll know very soon.
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
You're quite welcome, I also use 24 bit 48 kHz on both the input and output, I don't have the option of using 16 bit 48 kHz on both so I just use same, figured it's best to have them both set the same. I'm curious, what do mean you the display is off?

Cheers Jeffrrey
I was just listing differences, since I didn't conclusively verify what fixed the problem. I tend to think that the change to make both input and output 24 bit 48 kHz was the most significant change (as I also cannot change the UMIK 1 setting to anything other than 24 bit 48 kHz and I had started with the HDMI setting at 16 bit 48 kHz). The display being off is the TV connected to the receiver through an ARC connection in the second test vs. being on originally.
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LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon X1100W, 1712CI, 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Samsung PN60F8500, Panasonic TC-50PU54
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Depends. How many subs do you have? To provide an example, I have four subs. They are arranged in two pairs, and within each pair, the subs are equidistant from the MLP. So, with exact pair connected to one sub channel on the XT32 AVR, Audyssey SubEQ HT was able to set the proper delay for each pair, and the resulting calibration was excellent. In this example, a MiniDSP 2x4 was not needed.

In your case, if you have two subs, you don't need a 2x4. If you have more than two subs, it will depend on their placement whether you need the 2x4. Please share with us your sub configuration.
Thanks Jerry, right now I have two subs which are the same model, they are equidistant from MLP. Very soon I will have four (same) and they will be in the same configuration as yours (I think) two will be upfront equidistant and two in the back of room equidistant to MLP. In other words the front two will be equidistant to MLP and back two will not be the same distance as front two to MLP but the two in back will be equidistant to MLP. I hope I explained this properly. Thanks....
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Thanks Jerry, right now I have two subs which are the same model, they are equidistant from MLP. Very soon I will have four (same) and they will be in the same configuration as yours (I think) two will be upfront equidistant and two in the back of room equidistant to MLP. In other words the front two will be equidistant to MLP and back two will not be the same distance as front two to MLP but the two in back will be equidistant to MLP. I hope I explained this properly. Thanks....
Sub EQ HT should produce very good results with both your current and your new configurations.
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