Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 517 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-29-2015, 07:42 AM
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What's the minimum one has to spend on a new AVR to get XT32 and Sub EQ HT?
Cheapest one I could find:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...airplay/1.html
Yeah, I meant new, not refurbished. Seems regular xt is what I can afford.
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Old 07-29-2015, 08:25 AM
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I've bought a few refurb AVRs, not a single issue.
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Old 07-29-2015, 05:05 PM
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Okay, with minimum attempting, I was able to do this with my subwoofer (blue = old, purple = new).

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Old 07-29-2015, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
Okay, with minimum attempting, I was able to do this with my subwoofer (blue = old, purple = new).

Regarding your measurement, you should cut off the lower end at 15Hz, and the upper end should extend to 300Hz, and the measurement should not be smoothed. Can you repost taking these recommendations into consideration?
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Old 07-29-2015, 11:15 PM
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Regarding your measurement, you should cut off the lower end at 15Hz, and the upper end should extend to 300Hz, and the measurement should not be smoothed. Can you repost taking these recommendations into consideration?
If I have time tomorrow, I will.

Smoothing is off.

Why up to 300, though? My crossover frequency is at 60Hz. The PC13-Ultra can only do two P-EQ bands. If you want me to mix it with my FL and FR channels, I'll have to do more with it.
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Old 07-30-2015, 12:41 AM
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I think it's for proper scaling of the graph?
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Old 07-30-2015, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
If I have time tomorrow, I will.

Smoothing is off.

Why up to 300, though? My crossover frequency is at 60Hz. The PC13-Ultra can only do two P-EQ bands. If you want me to mix it with my FL and FR channels, I'll have to do more with it.
You should be concerned by the overall bass frequency response of your system. The main speakers begin contributing to bass response at the crossover (actually their bass contribution extends below the crossover, albeit at a rolled-off level). To assess bass performance, you need to measure not only the sub, but the smoothness of the transition between the sub and the mains. In audio terms, the bass (or modal) region extends to at least 300Hz, and in this range room modes affect bass performance, ringing, etc. That is why measuring the entire modal region is important.
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Old 07-30-2015, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You should be concerned by the overall bass frequency response of your system. The main speakers begin contributing to bass response at the crossover (actually their bass contribution extends below the crossover, albeit at a rolled-off level). To assess bass performance, you need to measure not only the sub, but the smoothness of the transition between the sub and the mains. In audio terms, the bass (or modal) region extends to at least 300Hz, and in this range room modes affect bass performance, ringing, etc. That is why measuring the entire modal region is important.
Oh no doubt, I'll be getting to that. I just measured what my subwoofer was giving me. I worked on the left speaker for a moment without the subwoofer just to play with it (as the tutorial suggested). Should I just combine L+R+sub altogether as one and only worry about that, or should I do sub independently, FL independently, FR independently, FL+sub, FR+sub, then L+R+sub? Should I involve the center channel with any of these combinations?

Also, how concerned should I be with measurements above 300Hz? If I only get seven bands to adjust in my receiver for each independent channel, should I focus mostly on <300Hz settings to get those as flat as possible and not be as concerned about the stuff above it?

Finally, are you suggesting that I not be concerned about <15Hz? One of the reasons the sub has better extension is because I changed the tuning from 15Hz to Sealed. Before, there was a spike around the 20Hz region that I simply couldn't modify, because I can only change settings as closely as 31Hz. I don't know how I can do any extra modifications given what I have. This one had a much slower, steadier roll-off and I was able to do this more properly while getting better extension. But if <15Hz doesn't matter much beyond something like "Irene" in Black Hawn Down, I won't worry so much about that and stick with a roll-off at 16Hz. I'll probably change the crossover frequency back to 80Hz, but I believe I may have a null around 80hz as well.

Thanks. Next time I post measurements, it will be the original ones without any modifications from 15-300Hz. Though, let me know which ones I should post among these:

FL (no sub)
FR (no sub)
C (no sub)
FL + FR (no sub)
FL + FR + C (no sub)
Sub
FL + sub
FR + sub
C + sub
FL + FR + sub
FL + FR + C + sub

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Old 07-30-2015, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
Oh no doubt, I'll be getting to that. I just measured what my subwoofer was giving me. I worked on the left speaker for a moment without the subwoofer just to play with it (as the tutorial suggested). Should I just combine L+R+sub altogether as one and only worry about that, or should I do sub independently, FL independently, FR independently, FL+sub, FR+sub, then L+R+sub? Should I involve the center channel with any of these combinations?

Also, how concerned should I be with measurements above 300Hz? If I only get seven bands to adjust in my receiver for each independent channel, should I focus mostly on <300Hz settings to get those as flat as possible and not be as concerned about the stuff above it?

Thanks.
I would measure sub+center, 15-300Hz, no smoothing. The combination of sub and center is critical for movie and TV viewing. You can measure the others as well--each provides a slightly different perspective.

Most audible issues are in the modal region below 300Hz. However, to provide a complete picture of overall system performance, I would measure left, right and center 15_20,000Hz, smoothed to 1/12 or 1/6.
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Old 07-30-2015, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I would measure sub+center, 15-300Hz, no smoothing. The combination of sub and center is critical for movie and TV viewing. You can measure the others as well--each provides a slightly different perspective.

Most audible issues are in the modal region below 300Hz. However, to provide a complete picture of overall system performance, I would measure left, right and center 15_20,000Hz, smoothed to 1/12 or 1/6.
Thanks.

So here's what I'm reading should be the suggested graphs I provide (assuming 16Hz port tune & 80Hz crossover frequency, no modifications).

FL (15Hz-20kHz)
FR (15Hz-20kHz)
C (15Hz-20kHz)
FL + FR (15Hz-20kHz)
FL + FR + C (15Hz-20kHz)
Sub (15-300Hz)
FL + sub (15-300Hz)
FR + sub (15-300Hz)
C + sub (15-300Hz)
FL + FR + sub (15-300Hz)
FL + FR + C + sub (15-300Hz)

All 15-300Hz graphs should have no smoothing, all (15Hz-20kHz) graphs should have perhaps 1/6 smoothing.

Maybe if in your next post you can either copy-paste or bold the items above that will be most beneficial to measure and post? Thanks!
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Old 07-30-2015, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
Thanks.

So here's what I'm reading should be the suggested graphs I provide (assuming 16Hz port tune & 80Hz crossover frequency, no modifications).

FL (15Hz-20kHz)
FR (15Hz-20kHz)
C (15Hz-20kHz)
FL + FR (15Hz-20kHz)
FL + FR + C (15Hz-20kHz)
Sub (15-300Hz)
FL + sub (15-300Hz)
FR + sub (15-300Hz)
C + sub (15-300Hz)
FL + FR + sub (15-300Hz)
FL + FR + C + sub (15-300Hz)

All 15-300Hz graphs should have no smoothing, all (15Hz-20kHz) graphs should have perhaps 1/6 smoothing.

Maybe if in your next post you can either copy-paste or bold the items above that will be most beneficial to measure and post? Thanks!
In order of importance (if this system is mainly for movies):
  • C + sub (15-300Hz)
  • FL + sub (15-300Hz)
  • FR + sub (15-300Hz)

For tweaking the crossover region (overly all to find the best crossover):
  • C (15Hz-20kHz)
  • FL (15Hz-20kHz)
  • FR (15Hz-20kHz)
  • Sub (15-300Hz)

Not needed (IMO):
  • FL + FR (15Hz-20kHz)
  • FL + FR + C (15Hz-20kHz) <---you would not be able to accomplish this if you are using HDMI because you can only output to 2 channels + sub at once
  • FL + FR + sub (15-300Hz)
  • FL + FR + C + sub (15-300Hz) <---you would not be able to accomplish this if you are using HDMI because you can only output to 2 channels + sub at once
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Old 07-30-2015, 10:08 AM
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Got it. So when it comes to tweaking, it's not necessarily about what the individual tweaking is for each channel unless it's blending with the sub.

I wish the back of my receiver was more accessible. I'm not using banana plugs, but even if I was it wouldn't be any better. I had to untwist the positive ends of my FL and FR speakers just to get the sub by itself. Good to hear that's not the proposed way of going about this immediately anyway.

If I invested in an Anti-Mode product, would I calibrate with the Anti-Mode then look to do more of my tweaking thereafter? This is an option of mine, but not my go-to if I can get somewhat pleasing results with what I'm about to measure today or tomorrow.
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Old 07-30-2015, 10:39 AM
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Anti-mode?

What AVR are you using? Do you have Audyssey? If so, what flavor? What sub(s)?

If you don't have an AVR with XT32, I would suggest that (as an upgrade in sound for the entire system) as opposed to an Anti-mode (upgrade for sub response only).
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Old 07-30-2015, 10:59 AM
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If you're using HDMI, you can test with channel 4 to get just the sub.

As to the null at 80 - if you really do have a null there, that's going to determine you crossover point. You'll need to determine whether that's being caused by your speakers producing 80hz or your sub, and adjust the crossover up or down to avoid it.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:38 AM
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Anti-mode?

What AVR are you using? Do you have Audyssey? If so, what flavor? What sub(s)?

If you don't have an AVR with XT32, I would suggest that (as an upgrade in sound for the entire system) as opposed to an Anti-mode (upgrade for sub response only).
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V667 7.2
Center: Klipsch RC-62 II Reference
Fronts: Klipsch RF-82 II Reference
Subwoofer: SVS PC13-Ultra

No surrounds anymore (running 3.1 bi-amped). Only YPAO with the Yamaha receivers.

I'd love to upgrade receivers, I really would. The Marantz models that I was most interested in were too tall for the shelf that it sits under though (6.5" H). Whenever I move out, which will be more than a year from now, I'm probably going to keep this audio equipment with my family and upgrade to the biggest baddest **** I can get with my high school teaching salary. I'll probably go broke.

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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
If you're using HDMI, you can test with channel 4 to get just the sub.

As to the null at 80 - if you really do have a null there, that's going to determine you crossover point. You'll need to determine whether that's being caused by your speakers producing 80hz or your sub, and adjust the crossover up or down to avoid it.
I don't know if I actually had a channel 4. I had my HDMI 1 and 2 in the setup, then two other options, but I don't think they were actually numbered in that sense. I'll look again the next time I run it.

I wouldn't say 80 was an actual null, after looking at some other people's measurements that feature actual nulls. I think I still have some older measurements that show 80Hz that I can show you. It was a dip, but not a cliff if you know what I mean. If I find one I'll post it here.

Is it better that the crossover is set up at a null, or is not?

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Old 07-30-2015, 12:36 PM
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Still don't know how to get sub by itself without removing my other channels.

Okay, here are my readings with the crossover frequency set to 80Hz and port tuning at 16Hz, no smoothing.





The center has some alarming dips, probably being inside the cabinet. Again, I have no mobility with it sadly enough.

And yes, the sub on its own is having issues at 80Hz. Is this then the suggested crossover frequency?

I can address the 40Hz issue pretty easily, but at 16Hz port tune it has a pretty high bump at about 17Hz that I can't change, unless of course I change port tune to Sealed.



Here are my readings without the sub, 1/6 smoothing applied.


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Old 07-30-2015, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
Thanks.

So here's what I'm reading should be the suggested graphs I provide (assuming 16Hz port tune & 80Hz crossover frequency, no modifications).

FL (15Hz-20kHz)
FR (15Hz-20kHz)
C (15Hz-20kHz)
FL + FR (15Hz-20kHz)
FL + FR + C (15Hz-20kHz)
Sub (15-300Hz)
FL + sub (15-300Hz)
FR + sub (15-300Hz)
C + sub (15-300Hz)
FL + FR + sub (15-300Hz)
FL + FR + C + sub (15-300Hz)

All 15-300Hz graphs should have no smoothing, all (15Hz-20kHz) graphs should have perhaps 1/6 smoothing.

Maybe if in your next post you can either copy-paste or bold the items above that will be most beneficial to measure and post? Thanks!
I agree with Alan WRT which measurements are useful, and which aren't. No need to go completely overboard.
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:21 PM
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Still don't know how to get sub by itself without removing my other channels.

Okay, here are my readings with the crossover frequency set to 80Hz and port tuning at 16Hz, no smoothing.





The center has some alarming dips, probably being inside the cabinet. Again, I have no mobility with it sadly enough.

And yes, the sub on its own is having issues at 80Hz. Is this then the suggested crossover frequency?

I can address the 40Hz issue pretty easily, but at 16Hz port tune it has a pretty high bump at about 17Hz that I can't change, unless of course I change port tune to Sealed.



Here are my readings without the sub, 1/6 smoothing applied.

The sub-only dip at 80Hz is an issue. When measuring sub only, the crossover value doesn't affect the measurement.

The peak at 40 Hz is also an issue. What is causing that?

Do you know how to make the REW dat measurement file available so we can download it an look at it ourselves?
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:23 PM
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I'm reading all around that measured flat responses aren't what we should go for, but rather a house curve. Is this true, and how do I determine the slope of my house curve in my family room?
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:23 PM
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Based on your graphs above, it's apparent that you have a null at 80hz from your sub. Your options are:

1. Move the sub
2. Move your seat
3. Cross at 60hz and avoid it

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Old 07-30-2015, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The sub-only dip at 80Hz is an issue. When measuring sub only, the crossover value doesn't affect the measurement.

The peak at 40 Hz is also an issue. What is causing that?

Do you know how to make the REW dat measurement file available so we can download it an look at it ourselves?
I will figure out how to do that for you in just a moment. EDIT: Actually, if you can help me out on that...

I don't know what is causing the peak at 40Hz, but I can correct it with the P-EQ settings from the sub. It just must be my house.

What I meant by crossover frequency being at 80Hz is that if that is where my speakers start picking up their ability to do work, at 80Hz it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue when they are involved. Maybe a little in the left channel, but not in the right and center channels.

I'm not sure why I answered those in reverse order...

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Old 07-30-2015, 01:26 PM
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Based on your graphs above, it's apparent that you have a null at 80hz from your sub. Your options are:

1. Move the sub
2. Move your seat
3. Cross at 60hz and avoid it

Given what I believe my speakers are capable of doing, I believe option #3 will be best and easiest.

Does the phrase "ignorance is bliss" ever cross your minds when you think about audio calibration?
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:29 PM
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I say do it. Your fronts are more then capable. And, your sub bass doesn't look that bad otherwise.

Can your AVR bring down that peak at 40Hz? I don't have experience with YPAO. If it can't, maybe different placement would be a better option. If your sub is in a corner, it's possible that bringing it out a bit may help with that.
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I say do it. Your fronts are more then capable. And, your sub bass doesn't look that bad otherwise.

Can your AVR bring down that peak at 40Hz? I don't have experience with YPAO. If it can't, maybe different placement would be a better option. If your sub is in a corner, it's possible that bringing it out a bit may help with that.
Let me play with YPAO first, then get back to you. EDIT: Just tried YPAO, it didn't do ****.

Is it recommended I stay at 16Hz port tune, though? Is that hump at 17Hz a bother of sorts?

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Old 07-30-2015, 01:48 PM
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Given what I believe my speakers are capable of doing, I believe option #3 will be best and easiest.

Does the phrase "ignorance is bliss" ever cross your minds when you think about audio calibration?
To expand a bit on my earlier post - if you would like to find out exactly where you should set your crossover for your speakers in your room - measure (separately) the FR, FL, CC with speakers set to Large, subwoofer(s) turned off, 15-300hz and let us see the graphs.
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
Given what I believe my speakers are capable of doing, I believe option #3 will be best and easiest.

Does the phrase "ignorance is bliss" ever cross your minds when you think about audio calibration?
To expand a bit on my earlier post - if you would like to find out exactly where you should set your crossover for your speakers in your room - measure (separately) the FR, FL, CC with speakers set to Large, subwoofer(s) turned off, 15-300hz and let us see the graphs.
If the speakers are set to large, is turning off the sub really necessary?
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:56 PM
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Old 07-30-2015, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
To expand a bit on my earlier post - if you would like to find out exactly where you should set your crossover for your speakers in your room - measure (separately) the FR, FL, CC with speakers set to Large, subwoofer(s) turned off, 15-300hz and let us see the graphs.
Going to have to find out how to get .dat files on here, but before I can here is an image:

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Old 07-30-2015, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
I don't know what is causing the peak at 40Hz, but I can correct it with the P-EQ settings from the sub. It just must be my house.
That peak is on the non-sub graphs (if labelled correctly), so changing eq to the sub won't accomplish anything; you need to eq the mains at 40 (which is pretty low for mains, so make certain the sub is/was off for those measurements).
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 07-30-2015, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
That peak is on the non-sub graphs (if labelled correctly), so changing eq to the sub won't accomplish anything; you need to eq the mains at 40 (which is pretty low for mains, so make certain the sub is/was off for those measurements).
Michael
It's on the sub graph as well.

And if I understand correctly, why would that matter on the mains if they aren't doing any work at 40Hz? The crossover will be at 60/80Hz, so what will addressing those items in the channels do with my setup if I'm using a sub?

It does address it when I use it on the sub, by the way.



Last edited by muffinmcfluffin; 07-30-2015 at 02:09 PM.
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