Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 519 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15541 of 15565 Old 07-31-2015, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The LFE track is encoded at 10dB lower than the other tracks. The AVR automatically adds the 10dB back, so there is no action required on your part, nor should you be concerned.
So the reason why REW ends up +10db for the sub LFE channel is because they aren't factoring in -10db to compensate for your AVRs +10db, which is assuming an input of -10db. Wow.

What started all this mess in the first place, I wonder?
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post #15542 of 15565 Old 07-31-2015, 05:18 PM
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So the reason why REW ends up +10db for the sub LFE channel is because they aren't factoring in -10db to compensate for your AVRs +10db, which is assuming an input of -10db. Wow.
No, the reason it ends up +10dB is because you don't understand how the LFE channel works and therefore don't adjust your system to get the same SPL as the others when measuring.

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What started all this mess in the first place, I wonder?
Someone decided the LFE channel should be capable of 115dB whereas other channels were capable of 105dB. That means the same digital signal will yield different playback levels depending on the channel.
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post #15543 of 15565 Old 07-31-2015, 06:29 PM
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No, the reason it ends up +10dB is because you don't understand how the LFE channel works and therefore don't adjust your system to get the same SPL as the others when measuring.
I don't think you understood the question. In REW, it is commonly reported in this thread that HDMI 4 gives +10db over the other channels. Jerry told us this is because the AVR makers add +10db to the LFE channel.

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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Someone decided the LFE channel should be capable of 115dB whereas other channels were capable of 105dB. That means the same digital signal will yield different playback levels depending on the channel.
But if the AVR is adding 10db to LFE, and the LFE track really is, as Jerry tells us, encoded 10db lower by the movie studios, they'd cancel out. Hence the confusion.
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post #15544 of 15565 Old 07-31-2015, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
In REW, it is commonly reported in this thread that HDMI 4 gives +10db over the other channels. Jerry told us this is because the AVR makers add +10db to the LFE channel.
Yes, that's correct.


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But if the AVR is adding 10db to LFE, and the LFE track really is, as Jerry tells us, encoded 10db lower by the movie studios, they'd cancel out. Hence the confusion.
If the studio wants something in the LFE channel to play at the same SPL as the other channels them they would reduce the signal by 10dB compared to the other channels. However, they're certainly not going to do that for all LFE content. Ultimately, they mix for what they want during playback and encode the signal accordingly. It seems like you're over thinking this 10dB offset that gives the LFE channel an additional 10dB of output capability.
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post #15545 of 15565 Old 08-01-2015, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
But if the AVR is adding 10db to LFE, and the LFE track really is, as Jerry tells us, encoded 10db lower by the movie studios, they'd cancel out. Hence the confusion.
The confusion seems to be that you think the REW signal is encoded differently according to which channel you use and respects some domain specific (film) encoding standards (hence is designed for use with AVRs only).

This isn't the case, it is just a signal generator that sends a certain scale signal and leaves any downstream processing to do whatever it wants. You therefore have to understand your signal chain if you want to understand the reported output.
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post #15546 of 15565 Old 08-01-2015, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
If the studio wants something in the LFE channel to play at the same SPL as the other channels them they would reduce the signal by 10dB compared to the other channels. However, they're certainly not going to do that for all LFE content. Ultimately, they mix for what they want during playback and encode the signal accordingly.
That makes more sense.

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The confusion seems to be that you think the REW signal is encoded differently according to which channel you use
Not quite. From what I was reading it sounded like this: all signal levels from REW are the same, but AVR is boosting LFE 10db. However I saw what Jerry said and it got me caught up on the idea that ALL movies will have their LFE -10db, and since REW isn't a movie with that offset you end up with an extra 10db over the other channels. While the math works out in the end, the reasons for it I didn't understand correctly.
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post #15547 of 15565 Old 08-01-2015, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
all signal levels from REW are the same, but AVR is boosting LFE 10db
It doesn't boost LFE 10dB (if it was done on the DSP we would get heavy clipping on the subwoofer). It is better think about it this way:
1) AVR *calibrates* subwoofer output so it has 10dB more loudness headroom than satellites (the voltage at the pre-outs could still be the same or even lower than satellites - it depends on the gain set at the subwoofer, so it is not 'electrical' or 'digital' boost, it is setting the gain structure of the system so the maximum loudness of the channel is 10dB higher).
2) Pass LFE as is to the subwoofer output channel (that is calibrated to sound 10dB louder for the same input signal level).
3) Attenuates redirected bass by 10dB so it is the same loudness at both sides of the crossover.
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post #15548 of 15565 Old 08-01-2015, 03:32 PM
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post #15549 of 15565 Old 08-01-2015, 04:12 PM
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I just thought I'd throw this in...

That is a nasty looking waterfall, Ray. Have you considered treatments?
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post #15552 of 15565 Old 08-02-2015, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Not quite. From what I was reading it sounded like this: all signal levels from REW are the same, but AVR is boosting LFE 10db. However I saw what Jerry said and it got me caught up on the idea that ALL movies will have their LFE -10db, and since REW isn't a movie with that offset you end up with an extra 10db over the other channels. While the math works out in the end, the reasons for it I didn't understand correctly.
The problem is that you are confusing the LFE channel and the subwoofer output. They are 2 different things. The subwoofer output contains BOTH the LFE channel and the re-directed bass from any channels that have Bass Management applied, (i.e., set to "Small.") However, the LFE channel 10dB boost in ONLY applied to the LFE channel, and it is applied BEFORE the LFE channel is combined with the re-directed bass.

REW doesn't output anything on the LFE channel. Therefore, the signal from REW never "sees" the LFE boost. If you're setup with the left and right channels being output to the receiver, and the speakers are set to "Small" in the receiver, the subwoofer output only contains the re-directed bass from the left and right channels. There is no LFE channel... and no 10 dB LFE channel boost.

Having said that, if you calibrate with REW using the re-directed bass from the L/R channels, you'll be properly calibrated and your receiver will take care of adding the LFE channel boost. If you want to measure the LFE channel, you need to get a test disc with test tones on the LFE channel. The only one I know of is the Goldline 5.1 Audio Toolkit:
http://www.gold-line.com/51atdvd.htm
See attachment, Chapter 16.

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post #15553 of 15565 Old 08-02-2015, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
The problem is that you are confusing the LFE channel and the subwoofer output. They are 2 different things. The subwoofer output contains BOTH the LFE channel and the re-directed bass from any channels that have Bass Management applied, (i.e., set to "Small.") However, the LFE channel 10dB boost in ONLY applied to the LFE channel, and it is applied BEFORE the LFE channel is combined with the re-directed bass.

REW doesn't output anything on the LFE channel. Therefore, the signal from REW never "sees" the LFE boost. If you're setup with the left and right channels being output to the receiver, and the speakers are set to "Small" in the receiver, the subwoofer output only contains the re-directed bass from the left and right channels. There is no LFE channel... and no 10 dB LFE channel boost.

Having said that, if you calibrate with REW using the re-directed bass from the L/R channels, you'll be properly calibrated and your receiver will take care of adding the LFE channel boost. If you want to measure the LFE channel, you need to get a test disc with test tones on the LFE channel. The only one I know of is the Goldline 5.1 Audio Toolkit:
http://www.gold-line.com/51atdvd.htm
See attachment, Chapter 16.

Craig
AFAIK, Craig, the output from REW HDMI4 is indeed the LFE channel. If your REW setup supports a full 7.1 HDMI interface, you could easily test this out. Send the low frequency test tone to Left+Right, turn the Left and Right amps off, and measure the signal coming from the sub channel only. Then output the same test tone to HDMI4, measure the signal, and see if it is 10dB higher. Unfortunately, my laptop only supports 2.0 HDMI, so I cannot run the test myself.
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post #15554 of 15565 Old 08-02-2015, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
AFAIK, Craig, the output from REW HDMI4 is indeed the LFE channel. If your REW setup supports a full 7.1 HDMI interface, you could easily test this out. Send the low frequency test tone to Left+Right, turn the Left and Right amps off, and measure the signal coming from the sub channel only. Then output the same test tone to HDMI4, measure the signal, and see if it is 10dB higher. Unfortunately, my laptop only supports 2.0 HDMI, so I cannot run the test myself.
Mine has 7.1 support and the LFE channel is 10 dB higher.

One thing I'm worried about is losing full 7.1 HDMI support when upgrading to Windows 10.

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post #15555 of 15565 Old 08-02-2015, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
AFAIK, Craig, the output from REW HDMI4 is indeed the LFE channel. If your REW setup supports a full 7.1 HDMI interface, you could easily test this out. Send the low frequency test tone to Left+Right, turn the Left and Right amps off, and measure the signal coming from the sub channel only. Then output the same test tone to HDMI4, measure the signal, and see if it is 10dB higher. Unfortunately, my laptop only supports 2.0 HDMI, so I cannot run the test myself.
Thanks for the clarification Jerry. I'll check this the next time I set up REW for measurements. I've only ever used REW in 2-channel mode to measure the L, C, R and subs.

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post #15556 of 15565 Old 08-02-2015, 11:12 PM
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Mine has 7.1 support and the LFE channel is 10 dB higher.

One thing I'm worried about is losing full 7.1 HDMI support when upgrading to Windows 10.
Same here hdmi 4 does measure 10 db higher from REW.
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post #15557 of 15565 Old 08-03-2015, 12:06 PM
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Regarding the sub distance tweak, can I adjust sub trim in the AVR afterwards without needing to recheck/fine tune sub distance again?
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post #15558 of 15565 Old 08-03-2015, 12:07 PM
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Regarding the sub distance tweak, can I adjust sub trim in the AVR afterwards without needing to recheck/fine tune sub distance again?
Trim and delay are completely unrelated.
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post #15559 of 15565 Old 08-03-2015, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Regarding the sub distance tweak, can I adjust sub trim in the AVR afterwards without needing to recheck/fine tune sub distance again?
Trim and delay are completely unrelated.
Good to know, that should make things easier
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post #15560 of 15565 Old Yesterday, 09:37 PM
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If you share your mdats, ill take a look.
The plots for front, side, rear etc. are composite responses with two channels driven.

The plots for left, right etc. are single channel responses.

The full mono plots are all channels driven.

The full mono 1M record is long measurement. The rest are all 128K. Not sure if it matters.

I suspect you want the ETC off the center, front right, front left etc. sweeps but not the front, high wide etc. composite response with two channels driven. I took a quick look and they seem better than they were before but not sure. I still cannot read the distance off the plot (the user interface does not let me drag the cursor to view the distance). I suspect there is a simple formula in the REW guide that lets me calculate a distance from the time. I already treated the rear reflection and the side reflections are hard to treat due to room geometry but if I can identify one or two of them splattering several channels I might try.

You might also want the full mono 1M record to investigate the decay. It varies between 200ms in the treble and 300ms in the bass except for that ring at 20Hz that I was not able to EQ out no matter how I tried. There is also a little bit of resonance at 47Hz that seems related to the 12' depth of the room as well as maybe the 24' width.

Thanks for the offer and I look forward to your insights. I will be checking too in case I can figure it out how to interpret some of the info in there.

final eq.zip
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post #15561 of 15565 Old Yesterday, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
AFAIK, Craig, the output from REW HDMI4 is indeed the LFE channel. If your REW setup supports a full 7.1 HDMI interface, you could easily test this out. Send the low frequency test tone to Left+Right, turn the Left and Right amps off, and measure the signal coming from the sub channel only. Then output the same test tone to HDMI4, measure the signal, and see if it is 10dB higher. Unfortunately, my laptop only supports 2.0 HDMI, so I cannot run the test myself.
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post #15562 of 15565 Old Yesterday, 09:48 PM
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^ What exactly is the purpose of the full mono measurement with all channels driven? In what situation would your audio system be outputting an identical signal to all channels? I would argue that this never happens, so question what this measurement would reveal.
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post #15563 of 15565 Old Yesterday, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
Does anyone have a house curve answer I was referring to earlier? Across from 15Hz-20kHz, do you really want the whole thing to be flat? Or do you want it to slope off as you go higher? I have a feeling it's going to sound too bright if it doesn't slope off.

And how do you determine what this slope is?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97...ew?hl=en&pli=1

Check the straightish green trace on slide 23 and the straightish red trace on slide 24. That is the coveted 'Harman target' that users of Dirac get an approximation of as their default (so I have read).

http://www.bksv.com/doc/17-197.pdf

Figure 5 is an older curve from an earlier time.

Notice that while Harman's curve attenuates 20KHz by ~12dB, B&K attenuates 20KHz by ~6dB. Probably best to pick something in the middle IMO given that my system with an approximation of Harman's curve in manual EQ sounds slightly muffled (or is that my hearing?).

My opinion on how to determine the slope is to set up your room treatments first to get broadband decay of somewhere between 300ms and 500ms (depending on multichannel or stereo system) and then measure all your speakers with no EQ and average their responses in REW. The speakers will tell you what your target should look like.

This approach of mine is controversial, but what I found is that in a treated room the natural rolloff of my speakers already approaches the Harman target so I am assuming that means they did something similar when developing their target.

The principle I go by is that designers make speakers have flat on-axis anechoic response and humans can perceive the general character of that flat on-axis anechoic response even after the speaker is placed in a room, but the room EQ cannot.

So what to do is to let the no-EQ microphone measurement pick up the general trend of the in-room response and then straighten the measured response with EQ until it is a straightish line, or maybe roll off the bass a little as B&K did since speakers tend to naturally do that anyway in a room past their bass extension limit and humans probably expect to hear that rolloff in a room.
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post #15564 of 15565 Old Yesterday, 10:11 PM
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^ What exactly is the purpose of the full mono measurement with all channels driven? In what situation would your audio system be outputting an identical signal to all channels? I would argue that this never happens, so question what this measurement would reveal.
I was checking my room treatments to see how well they were soaking up energy so I used all channels driven to excite all the reverberations simultaneously and plotted the spectrogram above noise floor. At least, that is how I was led to believe I should check the reverb time.

Brand new at this stuff. Just got the crossovers and manual EQ set up. Now looking at the room treatments to see if they can be improved.
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post #15565 of 15565 Old Yesterday, 10:22 PM
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I was checking my room treatments to see how well they were soaking up energy so I used all channels driven to excite all the reverberations simultaneously and plotted the spectrogram above noise floor. At least, that is how I was led to believe I should check the reverb time.

Brand new at this stuff. Just got the crossovers and manual EQ set up. Now looking at the room treatments to see if they can be improved.
Treatments are designed to control bass ringing in the modal region, below 300 Hz (bass traps), or to control reflections in the spectral region, above 300 Hz (broadband traps),

To assess effectiveness of bass traps in controlling bass ringing, measure left+right+subs (or center+subs), and look at either the waterfall or the spectrogram.

To assess effectiveness of broadband traps in controlling spectral reflections, measure individual speakers and examine the ETC graph.
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