Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 526 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-14-2015, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
These are the areas above 1% THD (worst is 30Hz and under)

Should I be concerned with the high levels of THD near 15-30Hz?
Usually higher distortion at lower frequencies are much less noticeable than at higher frequencies so you should be ok. If you find the lower frequency distortion objectionable then you can always just buy another sub. Each subs volume will be lower and you should have less distortion. At lower frequencies it is usually the dips and peaks that create the biggest issue and not distortion and those frequency peaks/dips are usually fixed by moving your sub to get a flatter frequency response or a parametric EQ or room correction like XT32 or DIRAC.
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:26 AM
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I suppose I'm looking at things from a different angle. Let's say the speakers alone are set to 75dB as is the sub alone. Now when measuring the speakers with bass management on, the speaker levels (each channel) is no longer exactly 75dB... perhaps 3 to 5 dB too high or low.
In that case you're using a test signal that is unsuitable for level calibration. Use bandwidth-limited pink noise for the satellites then match the sub as explained on page 102 in Jerry's REW guide.

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Old 08-15-2015, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I suppose I'm looking at things from a different angle. Let's say the speakers alone are set to 75dB as is the sub alone. Now when measuring the speakers with bass management on, the speaker levels (each channel) is no longer exactly 75dB... perhaps 3 to 5 dB too high or low.
In that case you're using a test signal that is unsuitable for level calibration. Use bandwidth-limited pink noise for the satellites then match the sub as explained on page 102 in Jerry's REW guide.
What bandwidth is this pink noise limited to? Is it 500Hz to 2kHz, like on the Spears and Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition BD?

And is that what the "speaker cal" radio button on the test tone generator does vs. "full range"?

And is "subwoofer cal" limited to 30Hz to 80Hz (again as on the Spears and Munsil BD)?

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-15-2015 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 08-15-2015, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
These are the areas above 1% THD (worst is 30Hz and under)

Should I be concerned with the high levels of THD near 15-30Hz?
Usually higher distortion at lower frequencies are much less noticeable than at higher frequencies so you should be ok. If you find the lower frequency distortion objectionable then you can always just buy another sub. Each subs volume will be lower and you should have less distortion. At lower frequencies it is usually the dips and peaks that create the biggest issue and not distortion and those frequency peaks/dips are usually fixed by moving your sub to get a flatter frequency response or a parametric EQ or room correction like XT32 or DIRAC.
Which is better, the manual peq on a good Yamaha or Pioneer AVR, or the auto eq on XT or XT32 capable AVR?

What's DIRAC, exactly?

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-15-2015 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What bandwidth is this pink noise limited to? Is it 500Hz to 2kHz, like on the Spears and Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition BD?

And is that what the "speaker cal" radio button on the test tone generator does vs. "full range"?

And is "subwoofer cal" limited to 30Hz to 80Hz (again as on the Spears and Munsil BD)?
Signal Generator pink noise help.
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What bandwidth is this pink noise limited to? Is it 500Hz to 2kHz, like on the Spears and Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition BD?

And is that what the "speaker cal" radio button on the test tone generator does vs. "full range"?

And is "subwoofer cal" limited to 30Hz to 80Hz (again as on the Spears and Munsil BD)?
Signal Generator pink noise help.
Ok, so they match Spears and Munsil since these are THX recommendations.

Just one more question about this: If speaker cal is starting at 500Hz and the sub is crossed over at 80Hz, does it really even matter whether bass management is on or off while *matching* speaker levels?

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-15-2015 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Ok, so they match Spears and Munsil since these are THX recommendations.

Just one more question about this: If speaker cal is starting at 500Hz and the sub is crossed over at 80Hz, does it really even matter whether bass management is on or off while *matching* speaker levels?
The difference should be insignificant.

Having said that, RMS readings of a pink noise signal will never lead to a perfect match. If you want to get levels right look at the magnitude response.

Markus

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Old 08-15-2015, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Ok, so they match Spears and Munsil since these are THX recommendations.

Just one more question about this: If speaker cal is starting at 500Hz and the sub is crossed over at 80Hz, does it really even matter whether bass management is on or off while *matching* speaker levels?
The difference should be insignificant.

Having said that, RMS readings of a pink noise signal will never lead to a perfect match. If you want to get levels right look at the magnitude response.
That makes sense... I was looking at the instructions on the Spears and Munsil BD and on their website and they never mentioned anything about turning subs off or setting speakers to large before using the test tones to set speaker and sub levels. They also mentioned setting reference level is optional.

Anyhow, moving on, what is magnitude response and how do I do that?
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Old 08-15-2015, 09:22 AM
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That makes sense... I was looking at the instructions on the Spears and Munsil BD and on their website and they never mentioned anything about turning subs off or setting speakers to large before using the test tones to set speaker and sub levels. They also mentioned setting reference level is optional.
The satellites on the other hand can significantly affect the measured sub level depending on the crossover frequency.

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Anyhow, moving on, what is magnitude response and how do I do that?
Magnitude response is the part of frequency response that shows dB vs. Hz:

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Old 08-15-2015, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
That makes sense... I was looking at the instructions on the Spears and Munsil BD and on their website and they never mentioned anything about turning subs off or setting speakers to large before using the test tones to set speaker and sub levels. They also mentioned setting reference level is optional.
The satellites on the other hand can significantly affect the measured sub level depending on the crossover frequency.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Anyhow, moving on, what is magnitude response and how do I do that?
Magnitude response is the part of frequency response that shows dB vs. Hz:

Yeah, that sounds right considering a typical 80Hz crossover and the sub pink noise going up to 80Hz.

However, I adjust sub trim to taste after YPAO anyhow, so this doesn't directly affect me.

As for that magnitude capture, how do I get that data and how do I read it?
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Old 08-15-2015, 09:47 AM
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As for that magnitude capture, how do I get that data and how do I read it?
These are very basic questions and I would recommend reading one of these books (or both!):
Everest, Master Handbook of Acoustics
Howard/Angus, Acoustics and Psychoacoustics

Regarding measurements this is a good start:
http://www.roomeqwizard.com

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Old 08-15-2015, 03:20 PM
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Regarding the sub distance tweak .pdf guide, it says to measure center+sub, left+sub, and right+sub (and find the best overall SW distance for the three). Now is left+sub and right+sub preferred to left+right+sub?

Basically, should I be taking 3 measurements for each SW distance increment or just 2? Is there a preferred way to do this? It's worth mentioning my FL measures quite differently from my FR, because of placement restrictions.

I attached a capture of the best I could do with center+sub and left+right+sub (2 measures only)... would measuring left+sub and right+sub separately yield better results (3 measures)?
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Rythmik LV12R; PS4, Xbox One, Motorola RNG150N

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Old 08-15-2015, 03:33 PM
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Could I improve the FL+sub this way?

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Rythmik LV12R; PS4, Xbox One, Motorola RNG150N
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Old 08-15-2015, 06:23 PM
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Which is better, the manual peq on a good Yamaha or Pioneer AVR, or the auto eq on XT or XT32 capable AVR?

What's DIRAC, exactly?
For me I would say manual PEQ over XT32. I used both and manual worked better then XT32 for me. Basically more control of what to correct that XT32 could not correct for me.

DIRAC is better then XT32 and also PEQ. Look here for DIRAC if you have a preamp or receiver with pre outs:

http://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a

If you are looking for a preamp that has both PEQ and also DIRAC look to the Emotiva XMC-1:

https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1
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Old 08-16-2015, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Which is better, the manual peq on a good Yamaha or Pioneer AVR, or the auto eq on XT or XT32 capable AVR?

What's DIRAC, exactly?
For me I would say manual PEQ over XT32. I used both and manual worked better then XT32 for me. Basically more control of what to correct that XT32 could not correct for me.

DIRAC is better then XT32 and also PEQ. Look here for DIRAC if you have a preamp or receiver with pre outs:

http://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a

If you are looking for a preamp that has both PEQ and also DIRAC look to the Emotiva XMC-1:

https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1
Which brand of receiver did you use manual peq on? Yamaha, Pioneer, or something else?
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Old 08-16-2015, 05:54 AM
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Which brand of receiver did you use manual peq on? Yamaha, Pioneer, or something else?
Emotiva XMC-1.
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Old 08-16-2015, 05:56 AM
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Emotiva XMC-1.
You favor manual PEQ over Dirac Live? Or can PEQ and Dirac be used at the same time on the XMC-1?
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Old 08-16-2015, 06:38 AM
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You favor manual PEQ over Dirac Live? Or can PEQ and Dirac be used at the same time on the XMC-1?
So far I do favor DIRAC. With DIRAC full on my XMC-1 I can change the target curves so this would be similar to having PEQ/ DIRAC combined.

That said if I did not have DIRAC full then manual PEQ would be the next best thing for me.

As I am upgrading my speaker system (looking to get speakers that play reference levels cleanly, especially the center channel due to vocals) I am still in the "testing" mode for DIRAC but so far I do like it.
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Old 08-16-2015, 08:59 AM
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FYI, a new version of REW is available today that offers many new "toys" regarding spectrograms. I use this "view" a lot myself.

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Old 08-16-2015, 09:14 AM
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FYI, a new version of REW is available today that offers many new "toys" regarding spectrograms. I use this "view" a lot myself.
'Normalize to peak at each frequency'! Fantastic!

Markus

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Old 08-16-2015, 09:32 AM
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FYI, a new version of REW is available today that offers many new "toys" regarding spectrograms. I use this "view" a lot myself.
Darn. There goes the rest of my day.
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Old 08-16-2015, 09:34 AM
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Darn. There goes the rest of my day.
The help menu has been updated as to provide some explanation to what the new features are about.

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Old 08-16-2015, 11:56 AM
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Darn. There goes the rest of my day.
That's because you're a pro. I'm going to lose the whole week!

Time to update the guide!

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Old 08-16-2015, 02:15 PM
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Please, if someone better than me can take a look at my post 15733 and me graphs , each commentary would be appreciated
Thank for your time

My system 5.1 :
ROTEL RSX-1562 /Fronts: B & W 705 bi-amplified; surround :PSB Alpha B and center B&W HTM4d2/sub SVS PC 2000 /TV Samsung UN55ES8000
/BD player Cambridge CXU/ set-top (cable box) rented from cable co.
Bis Audio cables and power bar from the wall to the receiver
My room:15'4" x 11' 6" x 7'6" tv near the center of the long side wall
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:37 PM
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Hello,
first of all I want to thank everybody that has contributed to the "Getting started with REW" guide and everybody here and elsewhere who share there experience on a forum. Without it, and the "not working with hdmi is not an excuse to do not use rew" advise, I would not get through all the challenges that I had to be where I am tonight. But, I finally managed to work with hdmi cable and Asio4all.

I want to know if my crossover at 80hz is right (I don't think so) and if time/delay adjustments by changing the sub distance settings from YPAO could help. (see my system in my signature) because everything else possible to do has been done. I know that EQuing does not fix all problems that I might have.

When the guide told "without Audyssey", in my system, I read it 'without Antimode'. The reason why is that YPAO does not EQ my one sub on my receiver model.
Since January I made every changes possible in the room to find the best place for the sub in the circumstances. I can not treat the room (waf); the MLCP is at 19 inches from the back wall (the best I win with waf ); fronts are forwarded by 22 inches (more = waf clipping !) sub is near FR.
Following are my measurements. Please don't shoot. I have done my best to understand all the stuff I read and remeber all the settings etc.
I hope that the legend in each will tell the details you need to criticies my homework! and give some advise to a dinausore born with a black and white tv living in this HD atmos home theater ages !
Aside the sub only graphs, all others were I have put the sub measurements are with Antimode engaged. In the receiver, YPAO was set to off (no eq for the speakers)

First the sub, receiver off, no rew. Antimode Dual core 2.0 readings before EQ and after EQ.
Attachment 885234

Now, sub through the channel 1.4 and rew (my understanding it is LFE only because playing with the crossover in the receiver from 60 to 200 change nothing in the result)
Attachment 885266

Followed by the left speaker response
Attachment 885242

And the Right
Attachment 885250

Now the Center
Attachment 885258

And the grand finale FR+FL+ sub and all 5 speakers and sub
Attachment 885274

Thank for your help.
Hard to see the numbers on your graphs, can you send the graphs through as larger files?

From what I can see your sub seems good. You have a an increasing slope on the sub so I assume that is intentional. See if you can resubmit the graphs. Also see if you can play with your charts so that the db level is in 5 db increments. You do that by adjusting your db low and high #s on your graph.

Last edited by Frank D; 08-16-2015 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 08-16-2015, 03:16 PM
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As outlined in the guide. Please follow the recommendations there (see AustinJerry's sig).

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 08-16-2015, 08:21 PM
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Hard to see the numbers on your graphs, can you send the graphs through as larger files?

From what I can see your sub seems good. You have a an increasing slope on the sub so I assume that is intentional. See if you can resubmit the graphs. Also see if you can play with your charts so that the db level is in 5 db increments. You do that by adjusting your db low and high #s on your graph.
I have changed image width setting from 800 to 1200 in the capture button hopefully it will help (higher than 1200 seems doing nothing more). The increasing sloap on the sub is not intentionnal (not sure if I what you are referring to). When I measure the sub with receiver off (antimode do the measurement and I read it with rew) The second graph with the sub only is with REW, receiver on, channel 1.4 via hdmi cable so I believe that I have the LFE only. For all others measurements ( FR, FL and center) speakers size was set to small and,for the sub only curve, I disconnected the speaker so I have LPF and LFE crossover at 80hz.
Here the graphs in the same orer than in my previous post:

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Name:	Sub LFE seulement avec et sans antimode2.jpg
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Name:	Gauche xover 80hz avec sans sub2.jpg
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Name:	Droit xover 80hz avec sans sub2.jpg
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Name:	Centre xover 80hz avec sans sub2.jpg
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Thank for your time.

My system 5.1 :
ROTEL RSX-1562 /Fronts: B & W 705 bi-amplified; surround :PSB Alpha B and center B&W HTM4d2/sub SVS PC 2000 /TV Samsung UN55ES8000
/BD player Cambridge CXU/ set-top (cable box) rented from cable co.
Bis Audio cables and power bar from the wall to the receiver
My room:15'4" x 11' 6" x 7'6" tv near the center of the long side wall
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Old 08-16-2015, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FargateOne View Post
I have changed image width setting from 800 to 1200 in the capture button hopefully it will help (higher than 1200 seems doing nothing more). The increasing sloap on the sub is not intentionnal (not sure if I what you are referring to). When I measure the sub with receiver off (antimode do the measurement and I read it with rew) The second graph with the sub only is with REW, receiver on, channel 1.4 via hdmi cable so I believe that I have the LFE only. For all others measurements ( FR, FL and center) speakers size was set to small and,for the sub only curve, I disconnected the speaker so I have LPF and LFE crossover at 80hz.
Here the graphs in the same orer than in my previous post:


Thank for your time.
A quick comment on your graph presentation. What we are interested in is the response of a speaker+sub, which is normally how you would be listening to your system. Presenting a measurement of the speaker without including the sub is, in my opinion, not very useful, and only makes things harder to read. And the measurement of the sub only should not change from one graph to the next, so there is no need to repeat if because, again, it makes things a little harder to read. I mention this for you to consider for any future postings you might make--no need to redo this set of measurements.

I think the sub response with Antimode correction on looks quite good.

The response of the left+sub looks a bit peculiar, with a lot of narrow peaks and dips around the crossover region. The right+sub does not seem to exhibit the same peculiarity. To me this indicates a lack of symmetry from left to right, perhaps caused by the placement of the speakers in the listening room.

The center+sub has a deep dip just below the crossover point. Have you experimented with adjusting the sub's delay to see if the dip is caused by a phase mismatch between the center and the sub?

My overall impression is that there is probably room for improvement, but we don't have enough information about your listening room, it's equipment, or the placement of the speakers and sub(s) to make any recommendations. You have presented these measurements without saying anything about what you think about how your system sounds. Does it sound perfect to you, or is there something lacking that you would like to work on? Also, do you use any type of room correction, Audyssey, YPAO, Dirac? If not, room correction probably would be a good step towards improvement.
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Old 08-17-2015, 06:51 AM
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Is this a good overall improvement for SW distance tweak?

Do subs sound best at 80Hz and under only (crossovers)?

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Old 08-17-2015, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
A quick comment on your graph presentation. What we are interested in is the response of a speaker+sub, which is normally how you would be listening to your system. Presenting a measurement of the speaker without including the sub is, in my opinion, not very useful, and only makes things harder to read. And the measurement of the sub only should not change from one graph to the next, so there is no need to repeat if because, again, it makes things a little harder to read. I mention this for you to consider for any future postings you might make--no need to redo this set of measurements.

I think the sub response with Antimode correction on looks quite good.

The response of the left+sub looks a bit peculiar, with a lot of narrow peaks and dips around the crossover region. The right+sub does not seem to exhibit the same peculiarity. To me this indicates a lack of symmetry from left to right, perhaps caused by the placement of the speakers in the listening room.

The center+sub has a deep dip just below the crossover point. Have you experimented with adjusting the sub's delay to see if the dip is caused by a phase mismatch between the center and the sub?

My overall impression is that there is probably room for improvement, but we don't have enough information about your listening room, it's equipment, or the placement of the speakers and sub(s) to make any recommendations. You have presented these measurements without saying anything about what you think about how your system sounds. Does it sound perfect to you, or is there something lacking that you would like to work on? Also, do you use any type of room correction, Audyssey, YPAO, Dirac? If not, room correction probably would be a good step towards improvement.

Thank you AustinJerry.
I take note of your advise about posting my graphs.


See my signature for my room dimensions. TV is on the long wall. 8 mounths ago, I discovered a little microphone in my receiver box !!. That is when my addiction began.
I ran YPAO and the sound tage imaging changed so much that I understood that I never had good sound in HT before.


YPAO does not EQ the sub. I bought Antimode Dual Core 2.0.It made a huge difference. I read the room measurements from Antimode with REW and I made many attempts to find the best place for the sub. Now it is between the mains nearer the FR, on the same plane than the mains. Fronts are 51cm forward the front wall. Right speaker is at 127cm from the right wall. You are absolutly right about the lack of symmetry: the lefte side of the room is the corridor leading to the other room of our basement (the corridor is along the front wall at left of the main listening position) Each night, I moved forward the left peaker into the corridor. I also changed the place of the chair of the MLP. With WAF, I moved it from right back the back wall to 49cm forward. I have no more options without WAF clipping !! Room treatment would come with a divorce procedure ( just kidding).


Recently, I used REW and UMIK-1 to confirm my findings.


Now, I want to acheive the smoothest response at the crossover region before to decide if I could improve the sound stage with Dirac Live.


You asked if I had experimented with adjusting the sub's delay to see if the dip is caused by a phase mismatch between the center and the sub?


It is the exact reason why I posted my graphs: to know if it would worth it.


YPAO sets speakers distances to 2,70m (which is correct) and sets sub distance to 5,40m. I also made measurements with REW with different crossover fr for center+sub at 80,90,100,110 and 120hz. The flattest curve was at 120hz. The theory said that 120z is too directionnal to be good.


Before to follow the procedure suggested with Real Time Analyser in REW in the addendum of the paper "Audyssey sub distance tweak procedure" . I would like to know if it is better to put a higher crossover fr first and the procedure after of if it is better to stay with 80hz .
Thank you again for your much appreciated help.









































My system 5.1 :
ROTEL RSX-1562 /Fronts: B & W 705 bi-amplified; surround :PSB Alpha B and center B&W HTM4d2/sub SVS PC 2000 /TV Samsung UN55ES8000
/BD player Cambridge CXU/ set-top (cable box) rented from cable co.
Bis Audio cables and power bar from the wall to the receiver
My room:15'4" x 11' 6" x 7'6" tv near the center of the long side wall
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