Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 529 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15841 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
use spectrogram instead, since it's less likely to show false results.
They show exactly the same. It's just a different visual perspective. The devil is in the window settings.

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post #15842 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 06:52 AM
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However, this brings up a question about using the measurements to optimize speaker placement or sub placement or for the sw distance tweak. For those measurements, (especially in the 15Hz to 300Hz region) do I want to use psychoacoustic smoothing or no smoothing at all?
If it's below 300hz, no smoothing. But if the response has large swings in magnitude, you may be better served by applying some smoothing. Depends on how adapt you are at reading the useful information from a magnitude response I guess. Applying more smoothing takes out some of the mental work.

Personally, I wouldn't use psycho anything smoothing for these things. Either 1/48, 1/24, 1/12, 1/whatever.

Psychoacoustics is one of those things that we are far from fully understanding imo. Once everything has been dialed in, then you can apply some psy smoothing for ****s and giggles.
Okay, I'll either use no smoothing or minimal fixed smoothing when doing the sw distance tweak.
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post #15843 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 06:56 AM
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The devil is in the window settings.
So really, what you're saying is that posting graphs is pointless, and only mdats should be considered. I mean, when was the last time someone new to the thread actually followed the effort Jerry put into the guide!!!
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post #15844 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 06:58 AM
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Rarely, which is why they need to be encouraged to read Jerry's fabulous guide.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #15845 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:03 AM
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The forum software should just be modified to recognize a REW screenshot, and throw an error requiring an accompanying mdat.
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post #15846 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
So really, what you're saying is that posting graphs is pointless, and only mdats should be considered. I mean, when was the last time someone new to the thread actually followed the effort Jerry put into the guide!!!
No, that's not really what I'm saying. Posting graphs isn't pointless (the REW default is actually quite useful for spotting modal problems) but you need to understand what exactly they are showing. The graph posted above clearly isn't a meaningful representation of the actual room decay. I encourage everyone to experiment with impulse response windowing and things should become clearer.

It's true that people don't seem to read Jerry's guide but it's also not linked in the first post of this thread...

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post #15847 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:19 AM
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In my experience, it is hard to control bass resonance at 115dB. I know you bassheads like to rattle the windows, but I am more interested in tight, controlled bass response when listening to music at reasonable levels. That is why a waterfall at more reasonable levels using similar REW settings is more revealing to me.
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post #15848 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:20 AM
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Experiment with impulse response windowing and you'll know what I was really saying.
An area where I have been lacking. I have some understanding of windowing the higher frequencies, but not much else. What tell-tale sign leads you to believe there is an issue with how the graph in question is presented, besides issues with the scale?

And the question begs, how many people in this thread are capable of determining said issue? Wouldn't it make far more sense, for people new to REW to simply post an mdat? I was being facetious BTW, but as always, you've pushed the discussion towards expanding ones knowledge.

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In my experience, it is hard to control bass resonance at 115dB. I know you bassheads like to rattle the windows, but I am more interested in tight, controlled bass response when listening to music at reasonable levels. That is why a waterfall at more reasonable levels using similar REW settings is more revealing to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_%28acoustics%29
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post #15849 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:21 AM
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It's true that people don't seem to read Jerry's guide but it's also not linked in the first post of this thread...
Unfortunately, the thread starter has been MIA for a very long time. It is possible that a request to a moderator could result in adding the link, if that is what everyone recommends.
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post #15850 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Unfortunately, the thread starter has been MIA for a very long time. It is possible that a request to a moderator could result in adding the link, if that is what everyone recommends.
I certainly do

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post #15851 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
An area where I have been lacking. I have some understanding of windowing the higher frequencies, but not much else. What tell-tale sign leads you to believe there is an issue with how the graph in question is presented, besides issues with the scale?

And the question begs, how many people in this thread are capable of determining said issue? Wouldn't it make far more sense, for people new to REW to simply post an mdat? I was being facetious BTW, but as always, you've pushed the discussion towards expanding ones knowledge.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_%28acoustics%29
If someone were kind enough to summarize the best way to interpret the waterfall, I would be more than willing to update the Guide. And in anticipation to your response, Markus, that proper interpretation methods have been discussed a million times, I don't feel comfortable with digging out the various discussions, determining which are "the right way to interpret the waterfall", and then summarizing them. If you were to do that, we could put this to rest once and for all.
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post #15852 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:33 AM
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An area where I have been lacking. I have some understanding of windowing the higher frequencies, but not much else. What tell-tale sign leads you to believe there is an issue with how the graph in question is presented, besides issues with the scale?
There is no 'issue' with the graph. The issue is how the graph got interpreted

By the way, 3ll3d00d explained how waterfall, spectrogram and decay are 'constructed':
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs

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post #15853 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:34 AM
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I certainly do
Request has been submitted: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/43-for...l#post36791690
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post #15854 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 07:41 AM
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i am confused on what graphs to use after measurements are taken and how to interpret them? Is there a list for the 1st timer? I created a thread, but I guess thats not the right way? looking for a small 5 step program.

any thoughts? 15k replies is a bit too much to sort thru imo.

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post #15855 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 08:30 AM
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Unfortunately, the thread starter has been MIA for a very long time. It is possible that a request to a moderator could result in adding the link, if that is what everyone recommends.
I think it should be sent once as a pm to anyone who posts here.
With a quiz at the end.

Michael
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post #15856 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 08:39 AM
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Repost from another thread because I think it will be of interest to many here:

free AES article by Floyd Toole on Room EQ

http://www.aes.org/journal/online/JAES_V63/7_8/#paper1

The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems

Open Access
Author:Toole, Floyd
Affiliation:Retired, Consultant to Harman International
For decades, it has been widely accepted that a steady-state amplitude response measured with an omnidirectional microphone at the listening location in a room is an important indicator of how an audio system will sound. This paper examines both small and large venues, home theaters to cinemas, seeking a calibration methodology that could be applied throughout the audio industry. Room equalization schemes adjust the room curve to match a target believing that this ensures good and consistent sound. The implication is that by making in-situ measurements and manipulating the input signal so that the room curve matches a predetermined target shape, imperfections in (unspecified) loudspeakers and (unspecified) rooms are measured and repaired. It is an enticing marketing story.
JAES
2015 July/August - Volume 63 Number 7/8

Thanks to krabapple for the original post.

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post #15857 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 08:52 AM
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Click image for larger version

Name:	psy 6th.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	146.0 KB
ID:	908690

Here is the same file presented in PSY and 1/6th octave smoothing. PSY, obviously, favors boosting the higher end gradually beginning at about 1K.

Is also smooths the low end more than does 1/6th.

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
They show exactly the same. It's just a different visual perspective. The devil is in the window settings.
It might be worth discussing whether the controls box should be included in all posted graphs. Especially encouraged for novice and new posters to this thread.

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post #15859 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 09:03 AM
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Attachment 908690

Here is the same file presented in PSY and 1/6th octave smoothing. PSY, obviously, favors boosting the higher end gradually beginning at about 1K.

Is also smooths the low end more than does 1/6th.
Reading REW help usually helps

"Variable smoothing applies no smoothing below 100 Hz, 1/3 octave above 10 kHz and varies between 1/48 and 1/3 octave from 100 Hz to 10 kHz, reaching 1/6 octave at 1 kHz. Variable smoothing is recommended for responses that are to be equalised. Psychoacoustic smoothing uses 1/3 octave below 100Hz, 1/6 octave above 1 kHz and varies from 1/3 octave to 1/6 octave between 100 Hz and 1 kHz. It also applies more weighting to peaks to produce a plot that more closely corresponds to the perceived frequency response. ERB smoothing uses a variable smoothing bandwidth that corresponds to the ear's Equivalent Rectangular Bandwidth, which is (107.77f + 24.673) Hz, where f is in kHz. At low frequencies this gives heavy smoothing, about 1 octave at 50Hz, 1/2 octave at 100 Hz, 1/3 octave at 200 Hz then levelling out to approximately 1/6 octave above 1 kHz."

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post #15860 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Reading REW help usually helps

"Variable smoothing applies no smoothing below 100 Hz, 1/3 octave above 10 kHz and varies between 1/48 and 1/3 octave from 100 Hz to 10 kHz, reaching 1/6 octave at 1 kHz. Variable smoothing is recommended for responses that are to be equalised. Psychoacoustic smoothing uses 1/3 octave below 100Hz, 1/6 octave above 1 kHz and varies from 1/3 octave to 1/6 octave between 100 Hz and 1 kHz. It also applies more weighting to peaks to produce a plot that more closely corresponds to the perceived frequency response. ERB smoothing uses a variable smoothing bandwidth that corresponds to the ear's Equivalent Rectangular Bandwidth, which is (107.77f + 24.673) Hz, where f is in kHz. At low frequencies this gives heavy smoothing, about 1 octave at 50Hz, 1/2 octave at 100 Hz, 1/3 octave at 200 Hz then levelling out to approximately 1/6 octave above 1 kHz."
Yes, I agree. But many folks are more inclined to look at a graph comparison than read the REW help manual

Along similar lines, while Jerry's guide can be most useful, unfortunately, the longer and more detailed it is, the less inclined most people will be to read it.

edit: The PSY REW help definition doesnt explain the apparent high end rise I am seeing.

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post #15861 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 09:42 AM
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Yes, I agree. But many folks are more inclined to look at a graph comparison than read the REW help manual
The problem is that they look at graphs they don't understand (although they think they do) and as a consequence they draw the wrong conclusions.

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Along similar lines, while Jerry's guide can be most useful, unfortunately, the longer and more detailed it is, the less inclined most people will be to read it.
I agree. It should cover the basics and get people started.

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edit: The PSY REW help definition doesnt explain the apparent high end rise I am seeing.
"It also applies more weighting to peaks to produce a plot that more closely corresponds to the perceived frequency response"

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post #15862 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 09:55 AM
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I agree. It should cover the basics and get people started.
AustinJerry meets Cliff Notes?


(Do they still have them, or am I dating myself? )
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post #15863 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 09:59 AM
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The problem is that they look at graphs they don't understand (although they think they do) and as a consequence they draw the wrong conclusions.
I dont think a guide can solve this. To this day, I am still revising how I interpret the graphs. It takes experience to draw proper conclusions. Paramount, IMO, to graph interpretation is separating what is relevant from what is not.

Add to this, there are certain things REW will never tell us. For instance, the direction of a reflection. This alone can cause us to chase red herrings.

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post #15864 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 10:02 AM
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AustinJerry meets Cliff Notes?


(Do they still have them, or am I dating myself? )
Michael
A compromise might be to separate the guide into two sections. Basic and advanced. That way, those adverse to long reads can skim the condensed/simplified version, while having the option to explore individual topics in the advanced section as needed.
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post #15865 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 11:47 AM
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I have a pretty simple question. It's related to miniDSP 2x4. I was planning to use it in conjunction with REW to equalize the sub. I connected the miniDSP in it's default state b/w the AVR and sub ( by clicking Restore to Default button in the plugin). I then played test tones from my receiver. The test tones from speakers obviously played fine, however the test tones/ bass level from the sub drop significantly when miniDSP is connected b/w the AVR and the sub. If I connect the sub directly to the receiver the test tones from the sub play just fine.

Has anyone seen this before or do I have to make some changes to the miniDSP from it's default state to get the correct bass levels from the sub? Without applying any filters, atleast in it's default state I would expect the bass levels to be same as the bass levels when the sub is directly connected to the receiver.

I don't know if this is the right place to pose this question, if not I'll start a new thread.
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post #15866 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nikhilnh View Post
I have a pretty simple question. It's related to miniDSP 2x4. I was planning to use it in conjunction with REW to equalize the sub. I connected the miniDSP in it's default state b/w the AVR and sub ( by clicking Restore to Default button in the plugin). I then played test tones from my receiver. The test tones from speakers obviously played fine, however the test tones/ bass level from the sub drop significantly when miniDSP is connected b/w the AVR and the sub. If I connect the sub directly to the receiver the test tones from the sub play just fine.

Has anyone seen this before or do I have to make some changes to the miniDSP from it's default state to get the correct bass levels from the sub? Without applying any filters, atleast in it's default state I would expect the bass levels to be same as the bass levels when the sub is directly connected to the receiver.

I don't know if this is the right place to pose this question, if not I'll start a new thread.
What's you are experiencing is a gain issue. There is a whole section in the MiniDSP Users Guide dealing with gain matching. Another place to look would be in the 2x4 setup document linked in my sig. Once you understand how to set your voltages properly, then your subs may need to have their gain settings adjusted. When you add a component like the 2x4 into the signal path, you should expect to need to make some adjustments to get it dialed in properly.

And yes, I believe this discussion belongs in the MiniDSP thread, not here.
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post #15867 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhilnh View Post
I have a pretty simple question. It's related to miniDSP 2x4. I was planning to use it in conjunction with REW to equalize the sub. I connected the miniDSP in it's default state b/w the AVR and sub ( by clicking Restore to Default button in the plugin). I then played test tones from my receiver. The test tones from speakers obviously played fine, however the test tones/ bass level from the sub drop significantly when miniDSP is connected b/w the AVR and the sub. If I connect the sub directly to the receiver the test tones from the sub play just fine.

Has anyone seen this before or do I have to make some changes to the miniDSP from it's default state to get the correct bass levels from the sub? Without applying any filters, atleast in it's default state I would expect the bass levels to be same as the bass levels when the sub is directly connected to the receiver.

I don't know if this is the right place to pose this question, if not I'll start a new thread.
Is the MiniDSP unbalanced? If so, the sub might not be getting enough power from the MiniDSP at it's current sub gain knob position (on sub). Also, you may have to configure the MiniDSP input voltage between the two options if yours has them.

In short, the sub trim in AVR and sub gain knob on sub must be set right with an unbalanced MiniDSP to avoid clipping and to get sufficient output from the sub at reasonable listening levels. Odds are in your current configuration the sub is getting less power with the MiniDSP in the chain vs. hooked up directly to AVR.
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post #15868 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 01:08 PM
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Thanks to both, for the suggestions. Yes, the minDSP is unbalanced. I'll have to go through the 2x4 setup doc to gain a better understanding the voltage settings.

Jerry, the DopBox link to the miniDPS 2x4 setup document in your sig is not working.
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post #15869 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhilnh View Post
Thanks to both, for the suggestions. Yes, the minDSP is unbalanced. I'll have to go through the 2x4 setup doc to gain a better understanding the voltage settings.

Jerry, the DopBox link to the miniDPS 2x4 setup document in your sig is not working.
Works for me.
Alan P is offline  
post #15870 of 20111 Old 08-26-2015, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Works for me.
It's working for me too. Might have been a network glitch.
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