Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 544 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:38 PM
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Yes, my subs are equidistant from my main seat. They are both 15' from each of my ears.

I need to do a little reading on integrating my subs and my mains now, have not looked much into that yet and I'm sure it will help.
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Quote:
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Basically, I'm asking if the plug-in is at defaults when first downloaded and installed to my computer and if so, does synchronizing it with the 2x4 effectively load this default state into the 2x4?
Always reset to defaults as a starting point.
Ok, I'll do that.

Do I need to do that again when switching from my current sub to my new one?
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Old 09-23-2015, 05:34 PM
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I was reading the 2x4 guide again and it says to use a y adapter for the 2 way plug-in so that both inputs on the 2x4 are used.... is this necessary for a single sub setup?
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:46 PM
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Old 09-23-2015, 09:31 PM
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@Jerry , so no matter what flavor of Audyssey you have if your subs are not equidistant from MLP, to properly set up multiple subs I have to set up the delays between subs and this is best accomplished with the miniDSP 2X4 prior to running RC?

After running Audy, the delays between mains and combined subs can be done with the Sub Distance Tweak by adjusting distances (sub channel) in the AVR, correct? TIA
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:13 PM
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^ Not Jerry, but not necessary with XT32 + Sub EQ. With lower versions of Audyssey, yes. Or, you can use the delay on the sub if it is a true global delay and not a simple 0/180 phase control. Some subs such as Rythmik have these.

And the sub distance tweak is always good to try no matter your setup.
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Old 09-24-2015, 04:00 AM
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^ Not Jerry, but not necessary with XT32 + Sub EQ. With lower versions of Audyssey, yes. Or, you can use the delay on the sub if it is a true global delay and not a simple 0/180 phase control. Some subs such as Rythmik have these.

And the sub distance tweak is always good to try no matter your setup.
How many subs can xt32 accommodate?
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Old 09-24-2015, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@Jerry , so no matter what flavor of Audyssey you have if your subs are not equidistant from MLP, to properly set up multiple subs I have to set up the delays between subs and this is best accomplished with the miniDSP 2X4 prior to running RC?

After running Audy, the delays between mains and combined subs can be done with the Sub Distance Tweak by adjusting distances (sub channel) in the AVR, correct? TIA
Soulburner has provided an appropriate response.
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Old 09-24-2015, 05:20 AM
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How many subs can xt32 accommodate?
SubEQ HT has two sub channels, and can set independent delays and trims for each channel. You can place more than one sub on each channel using Y-connectors. However, if more than one sub is connected to a single channel, the subs should be equidistant from the MLP. For example, before getting the MiniDSP 2x4, I had four subs connected, two on each channel, with each sub pair placed equidistant from the MLP.
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Old 09-24-2015, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
^ Not Jerry, but not necessary with XT32 + Sub EQ. With lower versions of Audyssey, yes. Or, you can use the delay on the sub if it is a true global delay and not a simple 0/180 phase control. Some subs such as Rythmik have these.

And the sub distance tweak is always good to try no matter your setup.
Thanks for the reply. I do have a true delay and not 0-180 phase. Thanks again.
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Old 09-24-2015, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
SubEQ HT has two sub channels, and can set independent delays and trims for each channel. You can place more than one sub on each channel using Y-connectors. However, if more than one sub is connected to a single channel, the subs should be equidistant from the MLP. For example, before getting the MiniDSP 2x4, I had four subs connected, two on each channel, with each sub pair placed equidistant from the MLP.
Jerry, I believe we discussed this a while ago as I mentioned I had two subs upfront equidistant to MLP and was getting two more behind the MLP which would also be equidistant to LP similar to your setup. You mention "before getting the miniDSP 2X4 you had this same setup, did you change anything since getting the 2X4?
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Old 09-25-2015, 01:10 AM
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Hi guys,


This weekend I am going recalibrate my quite simple 2.1 setup. (Onkyo TX-NR709, B&W DM685+ASW608 and a MiniDSP 2x4)


Previously I have always done the Audyssey calibration first and then used REW+MiniDSP to optimize the bass. But now I have read a few times in this thread that it might be better to use REW+MiniDSP to initially get the best possible response from the sub, and then run Audyssey after this. What are your guys opinions on this?


(Once or twice before Audyssey has for some reason boosted my very low bass <20Hz, which my sub won't really do, so I've had to use the MiniDSP to neutralize this)
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Old 09-25-2015, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by butch666 View Post
Hi guys,


This weekend I am going recalibrate my quite simple 2.1 setup. (Onkyo TX-NR709, B&W DM685+ASW608 and a MiniDSP 2x4)


Previously I have always done the Audyssey calibration first and then used REW+MiniDSP to optimize the bass. But now I have read a few times in this thread that it might be better to use REW+MiniDSP to initially get the best possible response from the sub, and then run Audyssey after this. What are your guys opinions on this?


(Once or twice before Audyssey has for some reason boosted my very low bass <20Hz, which my sub won't really do, so I've had to use the MiniDSP to neutralize this)
I use my MiniDSP2x4 prior to running Audyssey. I have moved the subs all over the room, even into positions that could not be used (middle of the room, etc) just to see if placement would help. With all of that done, and the raw sub response as smooth as I could get it, there were still two large room mode peaks at approx 45Hz & 55Hz - and Audyssey always saw these as the F3 point of the subs. It boosted higher frequencies to match the peaks - and did nothing below those frequencies. With the MiniDSP & REW I can use some PEQ to tame the peaks, and also a High Pass Filter at approx. 16Hz to stop the subs trying to output infra-sonics that they are really not capable of achieving (and the non-dedicated room does NOT like one bit - rattle, rattle). With the PEQ and HPF in place Audyssey 'sees' the real response of the subs in the room and simply fine tunes the whole range - no excessive boost or cut anywhere.

Regards, Mike.
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:08 AM
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Thanks for your input Mike.

I've made the following plan for calibrating. Do you see any obvious errors or things that I should do differently?

RESET ALL.....
01. Place Sub in corner....... Measure with REW
02. Place Sub in position 2... Measure with REW

Select location with the best response!

03. Re-measure sub in chosen location.
04. Use REW to generate MiniDSP filters.
05. Apply filters in MiniDSP (+HPF at ~20Hz).
06. Measure sub again to check if it worked.

Repeat 3-6 until best result achieved

07. Run Audyssey

With Audyssey ON
08. Set Crossover to 70 Hz. Measure FR+FL+Sub to see response
09. Set Crossover to 80 Hz. Measure FR+FL+Sub to see response
10. Set Crossover to 90 Hz. Measure FR+FL+Sub to see response

Choose crossover with best response

11. Do Sub-Distance tweak to optimize crossover

Q's:
1. Audyssey Dynamic EQ, ON or OFF when not measuring at reference?
2. When doing sub sweeps, is it sufficient to temporarily set x-over as high as possible,
and keep the front speakers connected. Or is it better to disconnect the fronts? (No HDMI on PC unfortunately)
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:31 AM
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butch666

First measure the near field response of your sub to get a general idea what to expect from it.

Then measure each sub location at several points within the listening are. Select the sub location that...
1. has lowest point to point variance
2. shows the lowest amount of non-minimum phase effects
3. delivers the highest output

Finally apply EQ and optimize the crossover region to the subs.

Alternatively place the sub very close behind your head (<1-2 ft) and run Audyssey. Done.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
butch666

First measure the near field response of your sub to get a general idea what to expect from it.

Then measure each sub location at several points within the listening are. Select the sub location that...
1. has lowest point to point variance
2. shows the lowest amount of non-minimum phase effects
3. delivers the highest output

Finally apply EQ and optimize the crossover region to the subs.

Alternatively place the sub very close behind your head (<1-2 ft) and run Audyssey. Done.
Thanks for your input Markus.


Would you mind elaborating a little on point 2. Which graph should I be looking at? And what in the graph should I be looking for?
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Old 09-25-2015, 05:09 AM
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Thanks for your input Markus.


Would you mind elaborating a little on point 2. Which graph should I be looking at? And what in the graph should I be looking for?
Here's a detailed discussion: http://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/hel...imumphase.html

Markus

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Old 09-25-2015, 06:04 AM
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Thanks for the link. Think I read that a some time ago as well. It is however a very theoretical approach with little to no information on what to actually do (click) in REW.


For instance how do I do this: (quote from link)


"The minimum phase response is generated by using the measurement amplitude and calculating the corresponding minimum phase from it, using a mathematical relationship between the two that holds for minimum phase systems. By looking at the difference between the measured and minimum phase (the excess phase) and measuring the slope of that difference to find the excess group delay, we get this plot:"

Doesn't seem very obvious does it?


I therefore think the following practical approach might be easier:
1. Measure
2. Apply EQ filters
3. Measure again
4. If filter didn't work, it's most likely non-minimum phase

Of course identifying non-minimum phase effects before applying filters would be slightly faster/easier, but I just do not see how REW can help me do this.
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:30 AM
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Funny, every time the topic means 'you need to learn something new' people use the word 'theoretical'

Click GD > Controls > Generate Minimum Phase there's your Excess Group Delay plot. A lot easier (and way less time-consuming) than trial and error.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 09-25-2015 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
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Jerry, I believe we discussed this a while ago as I mentioned I had two subs upfront equidistant to MLP and was getting two more behind the MLP which would also be equidistant to LP similar to your setup. You mention "before getting the miniDSP 2X4 you had this same setup, did you change anything since getting the 2X4?
The significant change is that all four subs are connected to a single output on my Marantz 8801 and I no longer use Audyssey SubEQ HT. The reason for implementing the 2x4 was to prepare for the implementation of Dirac LLive using the MiniDSP 88A, which has only one sub channel in my 7.1 configuration. The 2x4 allows me to set the delays outside of the AVR.

And BTW, measuring the bass response after switching from Audyssey to the 2x4, I am able to duplicate the results I was getting with Audyssey (actually improve the results, when you factor in the Dirac Live calibration).
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:40 AM
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Funny, every time the topic means 'you need to learn something new' people use the word 'theoretical'

What's funny about calling a mathematical/theoretical explanation for theoretical?


Funny how some people have to use links and long explanations before coming up with the simple and easy answer people are looking for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Click GD > Controls > Generate Minimum Phase there's your Excess Group Delay plot.

But I do thank you for the easy/simple answer we ended up with in any case ;-)
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:42 AM
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Funny how some people have to use links and long explanations before coming up with the simple and easy answer people are looking for.
Well, you first have to understand what you're looking at. If you don't you will most likely draw all the wrong conclusions from measured data. The internet is full of that.

P.S. How to get to the plot is in the link I've provided...

Markus

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Old 09-25-2015, 06:55 AM
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Well, you first have to understand what you're looking at. If you don't you will most likely draw all the wrong conclusions from measured data. The internet is full of that.

P.S. How to get to the plot is in the link I've provided...

Not trying to pick a fight here, but the easy answer to:


How do I know what is minimum and non-minimum phase?


"1. Plot the Excess Group Delay. 2. Anywhere the plot is flat is minimum phase."


You might then even add that these are the areas that can be EQ'd as a bonus!


But, again, I thank you for your input and will be using it this coming weekend.
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Old 09-25-2015, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by butch666 View Post
Not trying to pick a fight here, but the easy answer to:


How do I know what is minimum and non-minimum phase?


"1. Plot the Excess Group Delay. 2. Anywhere the plot is flat is minimum phase."


You might then even add that these are the areas that can be EQ'd as a bonus!


But, again, I thank you for your input and will be using it this coming weekend.
Looks like you've learned something! More important than me spitting out words people might or might not believe in

By the way here's a typical example of a dip that can not be equalized.



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Old 09-25-2015, 07:13 AM
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Glad that we zipped up and threw away the rulers :-)


Great graphs!
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Old 09-26-2015, 08:57 AM
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Just got MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced and after hours of issues this is the best I could do:

Do subs sound best at 80Hz and under only (crossovers)?

when I click match response to target it says 75% of the response is above the target... also, would I get better results with match range something else than 20Hz-200Hz?

(more details in link above)

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Rythmik LV12R; PS4, Xbox One, Motorola RNG150N
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Old 09-27-2015, 07:25 PM
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Windows 10 update

I recently updated the guide with a section describing the differences with using REW on a Windows 10 system. The key difference I reported was that Windows 10 is not recognizing the mic by its description, and is not automatically loading the sensitivity parameter. This forces Windows 10 users to manually calibrate their mics (assuming they want correct absolute levels, of course).

Subsequently, I have discovered a second anomaly. The guide has instructions for setting the USB mic's gain level in Windows Audio. For Windows 8.1 systems, the recommended mic gain setting is 0dB. In Windows 10, a 0dB gain setting results in a "input level too low" warning when running the measurements sweeps. By increasing the gain setting to +10dB, the warnings go away, and with this setting there is still a reasonable amount of headroom for the measurements.

I have updated the guide with this new tip. On the positive side, as long as you calibrate the mic manually, and set the mic gain to +10dB, REW functions quite well under Windows 10.
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:17 AM
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Does the procedure outlined the MiniDSP guide, REQ EQ tool section, auto generate Modal filters? or just PK filters?

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I recently updated the guide with a section describing the differences with using REW on a Windows 10 system. The key difference I reported was that Windows 10 is not recognizing the mic by its description, and is not automatically loading the sensitivity parameter. This forces Windows 10 users to manually calibrate their mics (assuming they want correct absolute levels, of course).

Subsequently, I have discovered a second anomaly. The guide has instructions for setting the USB mic's gain level in Windows Audio. For Windows 8.1 systems, the recommended mic gain setting is 0dB. In Windows 10, a 0dB gain setting results in a "input level too low" warning when running the measurements sweeps. By increasing the gain setting to +10dB, the warnings go away, and with this setting there is still a reasonable amount of headroom for the measurements.

I have updated the guide with this new tip. On the positive side, as long as you calibrate the mic manually, and set the mic gain to +10dB, REW functions quite well under Windows 10.
There seems to be some variation in whether and when Win 8.1 and Win 10 recognise the UMIK, I have several examples of the mic and while some appear as generic USB devices others continue to be recognised correctly (earlier versions of Win 8.1 recognised all of them correctly however, so something has changed). miniDSP are investigating.

The low level warning is probably because REW is applying a different threshold for the test when it 'knows' the input is a USB mic, the actual input levels should be the same so the gain could be left as 0 dB and the warning ignored.
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:21 PM
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There seems to be some variation in whether and when Win 8.1 and Win 10 recognise the UMIK, I have several examples of the mic and while some appear as generic USB devices others continue to be recognised correctly (earlier versions of Win 8.1 recognised all of them correctly however, so something has changed). miniDSP are investigating.

The low level warning is probably because REW is applying a different threshold for the test when it 'knows' the input is a USB mic, the actual input levels should be the same so the gain could be left as 0 dB and the warning ignored.
Thank you for comfirming that something is amiss, John. As for the low level warning, I will try leaving the gain at 0 and observe the results.
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