Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 547 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 10-09-2015, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
As the author of most of the guide, I am pretty sure that it states clearly that for general room response measurements, the mic should be pointed at the ceiling, and that the 90-degree calibration file should be used. This is no different from, for example, the Audyssey calibration mic, which is also pointed at the ceiling.

If you want a rationale, head on over to the Home Theater Shack REW forum and pose your question to John M., the author of REW. And while you are over there, you can read the REW help files that John authored, and you will see that the instructions are to point the mic at the ceiling.

If you are particularly industrious, there is a handy tool called Internet search. Enter the search term "Why point the mic towards the ceiling?" and you will get several links in which various rationales are discussed. One that was particularly useful for me was from Gearsluts.com, from which I learned a new term "diffuse field mic". Perhaps you will find it informative as well.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...c-ceiling.html

I guess my earlier tone deserves this somewhat condescending response, so fair enough. My apologies for getting off on the wrong foot here.

Thanks for the effort you've invested in the guide. As a Mac user with a recent UMIK1 it takes a bit of parsing to determine just what's relevant, but the section on measurements is very helpful. However, I don't agree that mic orientation is all that clear. On page 63 of the guide where you start getting into measurements, it doesn't say anything about orientation but I did find a couple of references to orientation and 90-deg cal files when searching though which led me here because it made no sense (to my mind) to point the mic at the ceiling. It might be good to have a section on mic placement and orientation and discuss the merits of different types of mic orientations for different types of measurements.

Having followed your advice, doing some investigating on my own, including the gear sluts forum, the REW forum, and general searching it seems clear to me now that there are situations where pointing it at the ceiling make sense, pointing it at the speaker being measured makes sense, or pointing generally towards the front of the room also make sense. And there are situations, such as with low frequencies, where it doesn't even matter how it's oriented.

Anyway, thanks again for the great guide. And sorry for getting off on the wrong foot.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virtualrain View Post
I guess my earlier tone deserves this somewhat condescending response, so fair enough. My apologies for getting off on the wrong foot here.

Thanks for the effort you've invested in the guide. As a Mac user with a recent UMIK1 it takes a bit of parsing to determine just what's relevant, but the section on measurements is very helpful. However, I don't agree that mic orientation is all that clear. On page 63 of the guide where you start getting into measurements, it doesn't say anything about orientation but I did find a couple of references to orientation and 90-deg cal files when searching though which led me here because it made no sense (to my mind) to point the mic at the ceiling. It might be good to have a section on mic placement and orientation and discuss the merits of different types of mic orientations for different types of measurements.

Having followed your advice, doing some investigating on my own, including the gear sluts forum, the REW forum, and general searching it seems clear to me now that there are situations where pointing it at the ceiling make sense, pointing it at the speaker being measured makes sense, or pointing generally towards the front of the room also make sense. And there are situations, such as with low frequencies, where it doesn't even matter how it's oriented.

Anyway, thanks again for the great guide. And sorry for getting off on the wrong foot.

Great. Another MAC users. I see tones of help to get REW going, but little on a MAC. I did read the one guide that recommends SoundFLower and LineIn. however, somewhere else I read that is not needed now. What are you using?

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Old 10-09-2015, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by zoepup View Post
Great. Another MAC users. I see tones of help to get REW going, but little on a MAC. I did read the one guide that recommends SoundFLower and LineIn. however, somewhere else I read that is not needed now. What are you using?

When I initially played around with REW, I used the guide on the MiniDSP site that has you using SoundFlower. It worked fine that day. The next time I went to use it, I was getting crackling and static when running sweeps. Apparently that's a common problem. I'm not sure why it worked perfectly the first day but regardless SoundFlower may not be suitable. One of the members here posted a guide on how to use the Midi utility in place of SoundFlower so I'll try that next. The post is referenced in the main PDF guide if you have trouble locating it.

I've been traveling so much lately, I don't know when I'll have a chance to get back to it. Been doing a lot of reading and theory... Can't wait to fire up REW and take some measurements.

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Old 10-09-2015, 09:21 AM
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What do you guys think of this house curve another forum member helped me create? Room is 1152 cubic feet. Sub is Rythmik LV12R (ported 12" inch).

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...p;d=1444331940

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...p;d=1444336131


Here's another I have yet to try:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...p;d=1444364108

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Old 10-09-2015, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What do you guys think of this house curve
What house curve are you trying to achieve? What's the intended crossover to the satellites? What's the frequency response of the satellites? How do other locations within the listening area behave?

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Old 10-09-2015, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What do you guys think of this house curve
What house curve are you trying to achieve? What's the intended crossover to the satellites? What's the frequency response of the satellites? How do other locations within the listening area behave?
Don't have the answer to the first question since I didn't create it.

Crossover is 80Hz. Frequency response is suited to 80Hz crossover, more measurements in linked thread above.

I didn't bother with multiple measurement positions as I have one exact mlp plus or minus a few inches left/right/forward/backward.
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Old 10-09-2015, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Don't have the answer to the first question since I didn't create it.
So what is the target curve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Crossover is 80Hz.
Do the satellites' in-room response support a 80Hz crossover?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Frequency response is suited to 80Hz crossover, more measurements in linked thread above.
There is no thread linked, just images?

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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I didn't bother with multiple measurement positions as I have one exact mlp plus or minus a few inches left/right/forward/backward.
And that's exactly the reason why you need to measure 'plus or minus a few inches left/right/forward/backward'. How smooth is the response within the listening area for sub and satellites?

Markus

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Old 10-09-2015, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
So what is the target curve?



Do the satellites' in-room response support a 80Hz crossover?



There is no thread linked, just images?



And that's exactly the reason why you need to measure 'plus or minus a few inches left/right/forward/backward'. How smooth is the response within the listening area for sub and satellites?
all the info I have at the moment is from this post to the end:

Do subs sound best at 80Hz and under only (crossovers)?

more measures in this post:

Do subs sound best at 80Hz and under only (crossovers)?

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Old 10-09-2015, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
all the info I have at the moment is from this post to the end:

Do subs sound best at 80Hz and under only (crossovers)?

more measures in this post:

Do subs sound best at 80Hz and under only (crossovers)?
Post a .mdat showing the frequency response of each speaker at spatially distributed locations within the listening area.

Markus

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Old 10-09-2015, 01:26 PM
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Never mind
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Old 10-09-2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virtualrain View Post
When I initially played around with REW, I used the guide on the MiniDSP site that has you using SoundFlower. It worked fine that day. The next time I went to use it, I was getting crackling and static when running sweeps. Apparently that's a common problem. I'm not sure why it worked perfectly the first day but regardless SoundFlower may not be suitable. One of the members here posted a guide on how to use the Midi utility in place of SoundFlower so I'll try that next. The post is referenced in the main PDF guide if you have trouble locating it.

I've been traveling so much lately, I don't know when I'll have a chance to get back to it. Been doing a lot of reading and theory... Can't wait to fire up REW and take some measurements.
Thanks. I am not using SoundFLower or LineIn. I "think" it is working. Will probably run more test next week

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Old 10-09-2015, 02:09 PM
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Never mind
So were you really looking for honest feedback or just for someone telling you that everything's fine?

Markus

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Old 10-09-2015, 02:52 PM
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Honest feedback, but with the info I supplied... not added work/complexity

Simple, quick response
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Old 10-09-2015, 03:04 PM
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Honest feedback, but with the info I supplied... not added work/complexity

Simple, quick response
That would be nice, but unfortunately a simple, quick response is almost always impossible to give. I think the best response is, "If you like it, then it is a good house curve" because, by definition, a house curve is a subjective curve.

This thread is frequented by analytical types, and we tend to want to analyze things before providing opinions. In order to analyze, we need data, and we ask questions. No easy way around it, and no need to be offended.
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Old 10-09-2015, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Honest feedback, but with the info I supplied... not added work/complexity

Simple, quick response
That would be nice, but unfortunately a simple, quick response is almost always impossible to give. I think the best response is, "If you like it, then it is a good house curve" because, by definition, a house curve is a subjective curve.

This thread is frequented by analytical types, and we tend to want to analyze things before providing opinions. In order to analyze, we need data, and we ask questions. No easy way around it, and no need to be offended.
Well, so far I really like it.

I'm not offended, just not interested in going into that level of detail. At least right now...
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Old 10-09-2015, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoepup View Post
Thanks. I am not using SoundFLower or LineIn. I "think" it is working. Will probably run more test next week

I played briefly with REW this afternoon and SoundFlower was crackling so I switched to just using the Midi Utility and that was clean.

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Old 10-10-2015, 06:02 AM
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Does anyone know how to get hdmi to work with a 2009 MacBook Pro?

I have been using the headphone output for the past few years but it's cumbersome. Would really like to use he hdmi with the adapter (there is no actual hdmi output in the 2009 MacBook)

This is the adapter I'm using


Thai allows me to connect hdmi but I can't choose it as an output for REw audio. There is no sweeps or tones generated by REw being output to the avr. (And in turn can't close individual channels to measure)

Can anyone help?

EDIT: nvm I found that the 2009 macbooks can only pass video through HDMI not audio

booo

Last edited by Brian Fineberg; 10-10-2015 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 10-10-2015, 09:28 AM
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Does anyone know how to get hdmi to work with a 2009 MacBook Pro?

I have been using the headphone output for the past few years but it's cumbersome. Would really like to use he hdmi with the adapter (there is no actual hdmi output in the 2009 MacBook)

This is the adapter I'm using


Thai allows me to connect hdmi but I can't choose it as an output for REw audio. There is no sweeps or tones generated by REw being output to the avr. (And in turn can't close individual channels to measure)

Can anyone help?

EDIT: nvm I found that the 2009 macbooks can only pass video through HDMI not audio

booo
I see you've found the answer to your problem. For other Mac users,
below is a list of Macs that support audio over HDMI. Moshi makes
a DisplayPort to HDMI adapter that has audio output capabilities.
It's about $35 on their site.

If you want to find out what model Mac you have, you can use the
System Information utility or you can visit the EveryMac site and
input your Mac's serial number into their ultimate Mac lookup
page for all the necessary info.

MacBooks with HDMDI Audio output support:

MacBook 13" Model 7,1 (Mid 2010)
MacBook Air 11" Model 3,1 (Late 2010)
MacBook Air 11" Model 4,1 (Mid 2011)
MacBook Air 11" Model 5,1 (Mid 2012)
MacBook Air 11" Model 6,1 (Mid 2013)
MacBook Air 11" Model 6,1 (Early 2014)
MacBook Air 13" Model 2,1 (Late2008,Mid 2009)
MacBook Air 13" Model 3,2 (Late 2010)
MacBook Air 13" Model 4,2 (Mid 2011)
MacBook Air 13" Model 5,2 (Mid 2012)
MacBook Air 13" Model 6,2 (Mid 2013)
MacBook Air 13" Model 6,2 (Early 2014)
MacBook Pro 13" Model 7,1 (Mid 2010)
MacBook Pro 13" Model 8,1 (Early 2011 - Thunderbolt)
MacBook Pro 13" Model 8,1 (Late 2011 - Thunderbolt)
MacBook Pro 13" Model 9,2 (Mid 2012 - Thunderbolt)
MacBook Pro 15" Model 6,2 (Mid 2010)
MacBook Pro 15" Model 8,2 (Early 2011 - Thunderbolt)
MacBook Pro 15" Model 8,2 (Late 2011 - Thunderbolt)
MacBook Pro 15" Model 9,1 (Mid 2012 - Thunderbolt)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 13" Model 10,2 (Late 2012)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 13" Model 10,2 (Early 2013)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 13" Model 11,1 (Late 2013)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 13" Model 11,1 (Mid 2014)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 13" Model 12,1 (Early 2015)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 15" Model 10,1 (Mid 2012)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 15" Model 10,1 (Early 2013)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 15" Model 11,2 (Late 2013)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 15" Model 11,3 (Late 2013)
Retina Display MacBook Pro 15" Model 11,3 (Mid 2014)
MacBook Pro 17" Model 6,1 (Mid 2010)
MacBook Pro 17" Model 8,3 (Early 2011 - Thunderbolt)
MacBook Pro 17" Model 8,3 (Late 2011 - Thunderbolt)


Macs with HDMDI Audio output support:

Mac mini Model 4,1 (Mid 2010)
Mac mini Model 5,1 (Mid 2011)
Mac mini Model 5,2 (Mid 2011)
Mac mini Model 5,3 (Mid 2011)
Mac mini Model 6,1 (Late 2012)
Mac mini Model 6,2 (Late 2012)
iMac 21" Model 11,2 (Mid 2010)
iMac 21" Model 12,1 (Mid 2011)
iMac 21" Model 12,1 (Late 2011)
iMac 21" Model 13,1 (Late 2012)
iMac 21" Model 14,1 (Late 2013)
iMac 21" Model 14 ,4 (Mid 2014)
iMac 27" Model 10,1 (Late 2009)
iMac 27" Model 11,1 (Late 2009)
iMac 27" Model 11,3 (Mid 2010)
iMac 27" Model 12,2 (Mid 2011)
iMac 27" Model 13,2 (Late 2012)
iMac 27" Model 14,2 (Late 2013)
iMac 27" Model 15,1 (Late 2014)
Mac Pro Model 5,1 (Mid 2010)
Mac Pro Model 6,1 (Late 2013)
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Old 10-10-2015, 12:43 PM
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Can I use the HDMI asio4all output 4 (sub channel) to measure avr output voltage with my multimeter on the RCA cable if I use a 0dbfs pink noise signal at 0db on the avr?

Trying to figure out how to gain match my onkyo tx nr609 to my inuke3kdsp.

I had previously had the avr at 0 gain and used my mic to get the subs up to the same level as the mains. Then edge of Tomorrow at 0db sent the inuke3kdsp into protection mode at 0db (doing a tactile test with vibsensor).

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Old 10-10-2015, 12:48 PM
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:00 PM
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Can I use the HDMI asio4all output 4 (sub channel) to measure avr output voltage with my multimeter on the RCA cable if I use a 0dbfs pink noise signal at 0db on the avr?
yes. Use a sine wave at 60Hz though not pink noise, turn off all EQ & make sure nothing in your signal chain is clipping. A true rms meter is handy here if you don't have a scope.
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:16 PM
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yes. Use a sine wave at 60Hz though not pink noise, turn off all EQ & make sure nothing in your signal chain is clipping. A true rms meter is handy here if you don't have a scope.
Excellent, thanks. So once I know that voltage, then I need to match it to the inuke3dsp max input voltage?
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:37 PM
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Excellent, thanks. So once I know that voltage, then I need to match it to the inuke3dsp max input voltage?
A -3dBFS signal is the maximum output you can set in REW. Also make sure the sub trim in the AVR is set to zero, and that any processing is turned off (room correction, DEQ, etc.).

The procedure is described in Section 7 of the MiniDSP 2x4 setup guide linked in my sig, which should be the same for your inuke. Depending on the voltage you measure (I measured 1.2V on a Marantz 8801), then either set the input voltage on the inuke so it will handle the voltage, or lower the output level (i.e. sub trim) on the AVR so the voltage input on the inuke is not exceeded.
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:46 PM
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Excellent, thanks. So once I know that voltage, then I need to match it to the inuke3dsp max input voltage?
measuring the output of your prepro is just the 1st step really. You need to account for bass management which means adding anything upto 10dB of headroom over the LFE channel alone (varies based on the no of channels you have & how much headroom you actually decide to leave, the vast majority of content will fit given ~5dB headroom for example), any boost in your EQ (e.g. running a house curve) and then you need to be able to balance the level from your sub(s) against your mains. You can then add into the mix your actual max listening level. For example if you know you listen at no more than -10 MV then you don't need to add 10dB for bass management headroom because you've made room already. It is basically just a question of "what space do I need to leave to avoid clipping in the digital domain?".
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
measuring the output of your prepro is just the 1st step really. You need to account for bass management which means adding anything upto 10dB of headroom over the LFE channel alone (varies based on the no of channels you have & how much headroom you actually decide to leave, the vast majority of content will fit given ~5dB headroom for example), any boost in your EQ (e.g. running a house curve) and then you need to be able to balance the level from your sub(s) against your mains. You can then add into the mix your actual max listening level. For example if you know you listen at no more than -10 MV then you don't need to add 10dB for bass management headroom because you've made room already. It is basically just a question of "what space do I need to leave to avoid clipping in the digital domain?".
I agree with everything you said, Matt, but doesn't it apply mostly to situations in which the output voltage from the AVR is close to the input limitations of the downstream device? For example, I measured a max 1.2V from the 8801, and my balanced MiniDSP has a 2V input limit. Given that I normally listen at levels lower than Reference, I figured I had plenty of room, so I never did any more rigorous testing. OK, or a mistake?
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Old 10-10-2015, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I agree with everything you said, Matt, but doesn't it apply mostly to situations in which the output voltage from the AVR is close to the input limitations of the downstream device? For example, I measured a max 1.2V from the 8801, and my balanced MiniDSP has a 2V input limit. Given that I normally listen at levels lower than Reference, I figured I had plenty of room, so I never did any more rigorous testing. OK, or a mistake?
Doesn't your setup go 8801->88a->minidsp? Is it 2V into the 88a or more? ISTR calculating the headroom you have from the actual values in some earlier thread and you had a decent amount of headroom anyway so I think you're fine as you are.

The inuke has an input sensitivity of 0.75V though when the gain is all the way up so a bit more care is needed.
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Old 10-10-2015, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Doesn't your setup go 8801->88a->minidsp? Is it 2V into the 88a or more? ISTR calculating the headroom you have from the actual values in some earlier thread and you had a decent amount of headroom anyway so I think you're fine as you are.

The inuke has an input sensitivity of 0.75V though when the gain is all the way up so a bit more care is needed.
I had my avr gain at -15 and the inuke at 6 clicks from all the way cranked (external dial) before playing Edge of Tomorrow opening scene (@ 20 seconds in to about 45 seconds in) would only flicker the clip lights. My subs are SI HT18 D4 each on a channel of the inuke (using the biamp setting rather than a splitter to each input) at 2ohm in 4cuft flat packs, minimal stuffing. My subs are eq'd by only with cuts, they cross to the mains and center at 200hz as the subs are on the front wall and co-located.

Under normal conditions, I kept the avr at -11 and the inuke knob all the way cranked. the kids get at it so I like to play it safe. It usually would be fine at -10 which is where I normally listen to movies.

I'll report back as soon as I measure the output of the sub out on my onkyo tx-nr609.
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Old 10-10-2015, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Doesn't your setup go 8801->88a->minidsp? Is it 2V into the 88a or more? ISTR calculating the headroom you have from the actual values in some earlier thread and you had a decent amount of headroom anyway so I think you're fine as you are.

The inuke has an input sensitivity of 0.75V though when the gain is all the way up so a bit more care is needed.
The 88A input and output voltages are set to 8V. The 2x4 input and output voltages are set to 2V.
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:58 PM
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Now it ALL makes sense. I can't play reference with my tx-nr609 and the iNuke 3000 DSP!! I can only play at -1db before send too much signal to the iNuke. I first set my sub gain on the avr to -15 like I did the other day when playing EOT. I turned up the AVR to reference or 0db and measured the voltage across the leads of an RCA cable that I connected to the sub out on the AVR. It read .80 which is .05v more than the iNuke can handle per the above statement that the iNuke is rated to a max of .75v input. I ticked the avr down to -1db, so almost reference, the voltage dropped to .715. So I think i can set the max allowable volume on the avr to -1db to keep the inuke from bombing out and going into protection mode.

For fun, i set the AVR's sub gain to 0 and ran the AVR up to 0db, reference and i got 4.49v. I ticked it down 1db at a time to see how loud i could listen if i were to keep the sub gain at 0, it would be -16db. See below.

avr set to -15 gain on sub
odb = .800 Reference
-1db = .715

avr set to 0 gain on sub
0db = 4.49v Reference
-1db = 4.0
-2db = 3.6
-3db = 3.2
-4db = 2.86v
-5db = 2.55
-6db = 2.27
-7db = 2.0
-8db = 1.8
-9db = 1.6
-10db = 1.43
-11db = 1.27
-12db = 1.13
-13db = 1.01
-14db = .90
-15db = .80
-16db = .715

Last edited by corradizo; 10-10-2015 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 10-11-2015, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Now it ALL makes sense. I can't play reference with my tx-nr609 and the iNuke 3000 DSP!! I can only play at -1db before send too much signal to the iNuke. I first set my sub gain on the avr to -15 like I did the other day when playing EOT. I turned up the AVR to reference or 0db and measured the voltage across the leads of an RCA cable that I connected to the sub out on the AVR. It read .80 which is .05v more than the iNuke can handle per the above statement that the iNuke is rated to a max of .75v input. I ticked the avr down to -1db, so almost reference, the voltage dropped to .715. So I think i can set the max allowable volume on the avr to -1db to keep the inuke from bombing out and going into protection mode.
for anyone following along, I replied in the other thread
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