Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 550 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 10-19-2015, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I have two SVS PB 12-Plus subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
You can smooth the bass out quite a bit with 2 subs (although 3 or 4 is better ).
Here is a similar analysis showing the advantages of multiple subs:

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Old 10-20-2015, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here is a similar analysis showing the advantages of multiple subs:

AustinJerry's Set-Up
Thanks, but I just bought the two PB12s and they are big in the room, so my wife won't go for the money spent and look of yet another sub or two. That would be like $6-7K just on subs.
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Old 10-20-2015, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I have two SVS PB 12-Plus subs.
You can smooth the bass out quite a bit with 2 subs (although 3 or 4 is better ).

Here's one sub in my room. None of these subs are rated for less than 30Hz, BTW.


Now two subs. At this point I could have used parametric EQ to get rid of that peak and things would be pretty good.


And here it is with three subs.


I use the Geddes method for the results above. Something like a MiniDSP helps with that but isn't necessary if your subs have have the proper controls.

An obligatory video (how does one keep this from embedding?!) www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCWL-zusyqw
While 3 subs looks way better, 2 subs doesn't show much improvement (relatively speaking).

(Which makes me wonder if the common advice of getting a second sub is really worth the money or effort to setup/integrate...)

Perhaps eq is more convenient and cost effective...
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Old 10-20-2015, 07:51 AM
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Dumb question: just bought a Dayton UMM-6 Mic from CSL. Which way should the mic be oriented when measuring? I've seen pictures with up down and horizontal orientation.

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Old 10-20-2015, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MalevolentHamster View Post
Dumb question: just bought a Dayton UMM-6 Mic from CSL. Which way should the mic be oriented when measuring? I've seen pictures with up down and horizontal orientation.
For general room-response measurements, place the mic in the MLP with the tip at ear height, pointed towards the ceiling. Use the 90-degree, 1/3 octave calibration file. For "near-field" measurements (which are designed to measure a single speaker's response without the effects of the listening room), point the mic directly at the speaker's dust cap several inches away, and use the 0-degree 1/3 octave calibration file.
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
For general room-response measurements, place the mic in the MLP with the tip at ear height, pointed towards the ceiling. Use the 90-degree, 1/3 octave calibration file. For "near-field" measurements (which are designed to measure a single speaker's response without the effects of the listening room), point the mic directly at the speaker's dust cap several inches away, and use the 0-degree 1/3 octave calibration file.
Thanks!

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Old 10-20-2015, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I have two SVS PB 12-Plus subs.
You can smooth the bass out quite a bit with 2 subs (although 3 or 4 is better ).

Here's one sub in my room. None of these subs are rated for less than 30Hz, BTW.


Now two subs. At this point I could have used parametric EQ to get rid of that peak and things would be pretty good.


And here it is with three subs.


I use the Geddes method for the results above. Something like a MiniDSP helps with that but isn't necessary if your subs have have the proper controls.

An obligatory video (how does one keep this from embedding?!) www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCWL-zusyqw
While 3 subs looks way better, 2 subs doesn't show much improvement (relatively speaking).

(Which makes me wonder if the common advice of getting a second sub is really worth the money or effort to setup/integrate...)

Perhaps eq is more convenient and cost effective...
Looking at Jerry's sub pairs shows a similar trend. So, does this mean without 3 or 4+ subs, the benefits of multiple subs isn't typically as great as some claim?

Or are there situations where dual subs does make a huge difference in frequency response?

Also, is it better to have a raw (before eq) response with mostly peaks vs. dips since the former can be easily fixed via eq whereas the latter cannot?

And is a flat frequency response for bass really preferred over a house curve of some sort?

I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative, just trying to determine the cost to benefit ratio of 2 subs vs one, particularly with a single listener in one very specific mlp. Especially when DSP is available for eq like with the MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced.
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
And is a flat frequency response for bass really preferred over a house curve of some sort?
You need to start with a flat response, to which you ADD a house curve.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
And is a flat frequency response for bass really preferred over a house curve of some sort?
You need to start with a flat response, to which you ADD a house curve.
In my case, I already had a downward sloping raw frequency response from 20Hz to 200Hz or so. By cutting the 2 big peaks and smoothing out the slope, I ended up with a pretty sweet house curve.

If I had used eq to get a flat response from 20Hz to 100Hz or so and then added a house curve, it would have been too much eq/processing with a worse looking and sounding result. And I didn't have the option of improving raw frequency response since placement was already the best I could do.
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:47 AM
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Maybe this result has more to do with luck than best practices, but there's no denying the improvement post eq... I suppose by taking advantage of the pre eq frequency response characteristics, I was able to make the most of things short of moving stuff around or buying more subs.
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Looking at Jerry's sub pairs shows a similar trend. So, does this mean without 3 or 4+ subs, the benefits of multiple subs isn't typically as great as some claim?

Or are there situations where dual subs does make a huge difference in frequency response?

Also, is it better to have a raw (before eq) response with mostly peaks vs. dips since the former can be easily fixed via eq whereas the latter cannot?

And is a flat frequency response for bass really preferred over a house curve of some sort?

I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative, just trying to determine the cost to benefit ratio of 2 subs vs one, particularly with a single listener in one very specific mlp. Especially when DSP is available for eq like with the MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced.
It still has a lot to do with room shape/size and position of the sub. These are measurements at one position and most times adding a second sub helps with maintaining a consistent response through out the whole room as opposed to improving response at one seating position.
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
In my case, I already had a downward sloping raw frequency response from 20Hz to 200Hz or so. By cutting the 2 big peaks and smoothing out the slope, I ended up with a pretty sweet house curve.

If I had used eq to get a flat response from 20Hz to 100Hz or so and then added a house curve, it would have been too much eq/processing with a worse looking and sounding result. And I didn't have the option of improving raw frequency response since placement was already the best I could do.
You are simply pointing out that there is no such thing as "right or wrong" when it comes to bass response. A long as you use best practices to achieve a response that meets your preferences, that is what matters.
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Looking at Jerry's sub pairs shows a similar trend. So, does this mean without 3 or 4+ subs, the benefits of multiple subs isn't typically as great as some claim?

Or are there situations where dual subs does make a huge difference in frequency response?

Also, is it better to have a raw (before eq) response with mostly peaks vs. dips since the former can be easily fixed via eq whereas the latter cannot?

And is a flat frequency response for bass really preferred over a house curve of some sort?

I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative, just trying to determine the cost to benefit ratio of 2 subs vs one, particularly with a single listener in one very specific mlp. Especially when DSP is available for eq like with the MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced.
In my room, adding the second sub only marginally improves the FR...but it does even out the bass over a MUCH wider area.

I'm currently considering adding a third.
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Old 10-20-2015, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Looking at Jerry's sub pairs shows a similar trend. So, does this mean without 3 or 4+ subs, the benefits of multiple subs isn't typically as great as some claim?

Or are there situations where dual subs does make a huge difference in frequency response?

Also, is it better to have a raw (before eq) response with mostly peaks vs. dips since the former can be easily fixed via eq whereas the latter cannot?

And is a flat frequency response for bass really preferred over a house curve of some sort?

I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative, just trying to determine the cost to benefit ratio of 2 subs vs one, particularly with a single listener in one very specific mlp. Especially when DSP is available for eq like with the MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced.
It still has a lot to do with room shape/size and position of the sub. These are measurements at one position and most times adding a second sub helps with maintaining a consistent response through out the whole room as opposed to improving response at one seating position.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
In my case, I already had a downward sloping raw frequency response from 20Hz to 200Hz or so. By cutting the 2 big peaks and smoothing out the slope, I ended up with a pretty sweet house curve.

If I had used eq to get a flat response from 20Hz to 100Hz or so and then added a house curve, it would have been too much eq/processing with a worse looking and sounding result. And I didn't have the option of improving raw frequency response since placement was already the best I could do.
You are simply pointing out that there is no such thing as "right or wrong" when it comes to bass response. A long as you use best practices to achieve a response that meets your preferences, that is what matters.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Looking at Jerry's sub pairs shows a similar trend. So, does this mean without 3 or 4+ subs, the benefits of multiple subs isn't typically as great as some claim?

Or are there situations where dual subs does make a huge difference in frequency response?

Also, is it better to have a raw (before eq) response with mostly peaks vs. dips since the former can be easily fixed via eq whereas the latter cannot?

And is a flat frequency response for bass really preferred over a house curve of some sort?

I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative, just trying to determine the cost to benefit ratio of 2 subs vs one, particularly with a single listener in one very specific mlp. Especially when DSP is available for eq like with the MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced.
In my room, adding the second sub only marginally improves the FR...but it does even out the bass over a MUCH wider area.

I'm currently considering adding a third.
All valid points, perhaps what I really mean to say is for me and some others a second sub may not provide as much benefit as one might hope for. However, with so many variables, it would be near impossible to know without trying it.

Of course, having more consistently even frequency response through a larger listening area could have merits for multiple listeners and/or multiple mlp's. That does appear to apply most if not all of the time whereas a better frequency response in the absolute sense in just one narrow mlp from 1 vs 2 subs is harder to generalize.

I suppose the main thing I should take from this is Jerry's comment about how there is no one approach that is always best and ultimately it has to do with what the user is starting with in terms of setup, gear, and budget for additional expenses and how willing they are to try different approaches and setups with varying cost to benefit ratios and varying end results.

For me, eq provides a lot of bang for the buck out of a single high quality sub and I don't need a larger listening area or multiple mlp's so multiple subs are not required.
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Old 10-20-2015, 02:38 PM
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My bass is just as flat as Jerry's but with 2 subs. Every room is different. With only one, my graphs look awful. Though to be fair, that's just turning one of them off. I never optimized for only one sub.

This is regarding bass response at my main seat, though the whole room does see a benefit.
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Old 10-20-2015, 03:01 PM
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Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measuremen...

I wonder if there's a case to be made for buying multiple (or more) less expensive subs vs a single (or fewer) high-end sub(s).

For example, if you can spend $1500 on subs, do you buy a single sub that consumes your budget that goes ultra low with tons of power or do you buy a pair of $700 subs that will provide more even response and possibly some gain reinforcement?

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Old 10-20-2015, 03:06 PM
 
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I wonder if there's a case to be made for buying multiple (or more) less expensive subs vs a single (or fewer) high-end sub(s).

For example, if you can spend $1500 on subs, do you buy a single sub that consumes your budget that goes ultra low with tons of power or do you buy a pair of $700 subs that will provide more even response and possibly some gain reinforcement?
This has been brought up many times

Most of the time the recommendation is buy multiple less subs. Unless you can buy the one bigger more expensive sub with another down the road once you save for it
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Old 10-20-2015, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by virtualrain View Post
I wonder if there's a case to be made for buying multiple (or more) less expensive subs vs a single (or fewer) high-end sub(s).

For example, if you can spend $1500 on subs, do you buy a single sub that consumes your budget that goes ultra low with tons of power or do you buy a pair of $700 subs that will provide more even response and possibly some gain reinforcement?
As long as the less expensive subs are of reasonable quality, there are numerous arguments that multiple subs outperform a single expensive sub.
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Old 10-20-2015, 04:43 PM
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I wonder if there's a case to be made for buying multiple (or more) less expensive subs vs a single (or fewer) high-end sub(s).

For example, if you can spend $1500 on subs, do you buy a single sub that consumes your budget that goes ultra low with tons of power or do you buy a pair of $700 subs that will provide more even response and possibly some gain reinforcement?
Well, depends on price range... if I had to choose between 4 Dayton Audio SUB-1200s ($150 each retail) or one Rythmik LV12R ($600 each retail)... I'd go for the LV12R all day.

Why? because it has strong output down to 20Hz or so, whereas the SUB-1200 doesn't sound strong under 32Hz or so and the LV12R is much punchier (300W RMS vs. 120W RMS) and more articulate/refined/musical/has direct servo
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Old 10-20-2015, 04:47 PM
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Well, depends on price range... if I had to choose between 4 Dayton Audio SUB-1200s ($150 each retail) or one Rythmik LV12R ($600 each retail)... I'd go for the LV12R all day.

Why? because it has strong output down to 20Hz or so, whereas the SUB-1200 doesn't sound strong under 32Hz or so and the LV12R is much punchier (300W RMS vs. 120W RMS) and more articulate/refined/musical/has direct servo
How about four Lv12R's vs. one Seaton Submersive?
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Old 10-20-2015, 05:02 PM
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How about four Lv12R's vs. one Seaton Submersive?
probably 4 LV12Rs, unless the greater extension/output under 20Hz makes a huge difference in movies

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Old 10-20-2015, 05:08 PM
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probably 4 LV12Rs, unless the greater extension/output under 20Hz makes a huge difference in movies
I rest my case.
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Old 10-20-2015, 05:11 PM
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we seem to be forgetting footprint here, one reason single subs get expensive is because they cram a load of output/power into a "small" package. Of course you can throw multiples at the problem but the space required to do that is rather more expensive (in many cases) than a more powerful sub.

if we're window shopping though then why not multiples of some brutally powerful subs
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Old 10-20-2015, 05:17 PM
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we seem to be forgetting footprint here, one reason single subs get expensive is because they cram a load of output/power into a "small" package. Of course you can throw multiples at the problem but the space required to do that is rather more expensive (in many cases) than a more powerful sub.

if we're window shopping though then why not multiples of some brutally powerful subs
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Old 10-20-2015, 05:23 PM
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if we're window shopping though then why not multiples of some brutally powerful subs
I think the conversation started with the premise, if you have $X, is the money better spent on one expensive sub, or several more reasonably-priced subs.

Multiples of brutally powerful subs probably doesn't fit the premise.
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Old 10-20-2015, 05:49 PM
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I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative, just trying to determine the cost to benefit ratio of 2 subs vs one, particularly with a single listener in one very specific mlp.
For a single listener, @markus767 has the best advice. Put one sub about one foot behind your head.

Anything beyond that would seem a waste of money.
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:56 AM
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While 3 subs looks way better, 2 subs doesn't show much improvement (relatively speaking).

(Which makes me wonder if the common advice of getting a second sub is really worth the money or effort to setup/integrate...)

Perhaps eq is more convenient and cost effective...
Two subs instead of one was/is worth it for me.I've never used equalization (I don't have anything against it, though).

With proper placement, I'm able to change the peaks and nulls away from my seating position more easily than with one sub. More importantly, for me, is that I can always localize the sub in the room. Even just a little bit is distracting for me. Actually the absolute most important thing - it just sounds better to me with two subs rather than one. I have two subs set up in my two main HT rooms. It's awesome.

I also second the advice to get two good quality subs rather than two cheap ones (I've done both). If one sub sounds bad, two sounds just as crappy, but louder. I've even tried mixing subs to save money: one expensive, one cheap(er). Results were underwhelming.

Be mindful of the law of diminishing returns, though. Two really good subs can be had for reasonable money, especially if you're willing to buy second hand.

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Old 10-21-2015, 07:03 AM
 
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although very informative...i dont agree (nor do many professional engineers) agree witht eh geddes video...specifically 2 subs (notice he didnt mention getting them to play nice with each other with phase etc) or his complete dismissal of room gain...

room gain is definitely prominent...and can be easily measured
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:20 AM
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When measuring distortion, does switching between a 256K measure and a 1M measure make a significant difference in the numbers?

EDIT: checking the same measures in 256K vs. 1M showed no significant changes in numbers

What was interesting was the 1M measure was smoother than the 256K measure in frequency response... curious

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 10-21-2015 at 12:26 PM.
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